The cardinal newman society college guide

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The two statements, “The Bishop speaks with authority given him by God. To do as the Bishop commands is to do the will of God,” seem to ignore the story of Blessed Franz Jägerstätter who refused the advice of the Bishop of Linz. In 1946 Bishop Fliesser wrote of his conversation with Franz Jägerstätter: “I explained in vain to him the moral principles on the degree of responsibility that the private citizen has for the actions of the authorities, and reminded him of the much higher responsibility he had for those around him and particularly his family.” After the war ended the bishop suppressed publication of the affair in his district.

Bishop D’Arcy spends very little time at Notre Dame and is intellectually ill-equipped to argue issues of faith and morals with the world-class theologans of Notre Dame. The eclecticism demanded by John Henry Cardinal Newman in his The Idea of a University is not well-served by a list of recommended Catholic universities that excludes The University of Notre Dame.

Graduates of Catholic colleges ought not be wooden men devoted to unquestioning obedience to “superiors” even if they are bishops or popes. The Work of God must sometimes be carried on alone in the dark caves of the Caucasus.
 
Nekayah,
I understand what you’re saying but let’s not get carried away. We do need obedience to the Bishops and especially the Holy Father. They are in place for a reason. We are their flock. What I am concerned about is when people criticize Notre Dame for not adhering to the Church authorities, when if fact they do. For example, Fr. Jenkins would have allowed the Monologues to be carried on the way they originally were, which was not the correct thing to do. Bishop D’Arcy realized this and so did the administration. So, the university has absolutely no affiliation with “National V-Day”, which was the root of the problem (I just hope that G’town and BC follow suit some day soon!) That was the correct answer. Believe it or not, it’s good to read that disgusting script in order to realize how true the Church’s teaching is to God’s natural law. But, we must always adhere to our Shepherds. It all started with Peter and our long line of Apostolic succession must never break.

Now, dear VOCATIO:
ND students and graduates are by far “snobs”. We are surely not to be judgemental toward one another and still live as one body in Christ. Most people fail to realize that Notre Dame meets 100% of their students’ financial needs, and with one of the largest ROTC programs in the nation dishing out full rides, there are PLENTY of students at that school who are very far from being wealthy. Over 10% of Notre Dame graduates each year have worked extremely hard for 4 years to make nothing in service to God’s people. Over 10% of each graduating class goes into missionary work for the poor and underprivileged…from the Peace Corps to the Alliance for Catholic Education. …not to mention many men each year who join the seminary to become priests. As a whole, the ND community is certainly not “snobs”. And as a whole, we certainly do not think that we are more intelligent or better than others simply because we are ND graduates. That is absurd.

I agree with Nekayah in the fact that the Newman Society should include Notre Dame in it’s top 21. I know the society was very impressed with the Catholic lives of ND students, but they were also scewed to believe that the ND academia is not devout to Church teaching when in fact it is…and very much so. Someone mentioned that the Theology department as a whole does not adhere to the Mandatum. Through my own research, over 80% of the faculty in Theology holds the mandatum. What about the rest you may ask? …well we’ll have to wait a few years for those TENURED faculty to retire and then ND, like Ave Maria and Franciscan, will also be at 100%. One must not be blinded from the legalities associated with tenured faculty in the American academia and the fact that ND can do nothing about their refusal to obtain a mandatum. Be rest assured that they are in the vast minority and they are probably just being arrogant more than anything about having to obtain the mandatum. It certainly doesn’t mean that they are teaching Heresy (at least I hope not! I, at least, have never heard of that hapening in the department). You never know though…no university is perfect!

God Bless
 
livingoutloud said:
The Newman Guide is great, but none of the colleges there have the academic reputation of Notre Dame, Georgetown, or Yale. What’s a person supposed to do who wants a school with an excellent reputation?
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well yale would not be there because it is not a Catholic college, the topic of the guide.
one can only hope these other schools will respond to the survey so they can be included in the book.

guess you will have to rely on other sources to evaluate the colleges you are interested in. and define your terms: excellent reputation in what? the guide tries to identify schools with a good solid Catholic idenity. What is the point of paying the mega-tuition for a school that calls itself “Catholic” yet has administration, professors, and student life activities that actively work against Catholic teaching? What is the value of that reputation?
 
Puzzleannie,
I think that is what has upset some people. I can’t speak for Georgetown, but it makes Notre Dame look like it doesn’t foster the Catholic lifestyle, when in fact it does foster Catholic values on so many different levels. To think that it is in the same category of a secular university is ludicrous. It’s VERY far from secular. One simply has to step foot on campus to witness this. However, it was at least nice to see that the Newman Guide did acknowledge the Catholic lifestyles and spirituality of the Notre Dame student body (high % of Catholics, spiritual community in single-sex dorm life and high Mass attendance etc…)

Just my two cents…
 
Why was ND excluded from the Newman Society guide? I understand they have a chapter on ND, which I assume lays out their reasons. Can someone summarize their reasons, as I haven’t seen the book myself?
 
Domer, You indeed are very young and naive. Having been in and out of several universities and careers at various places. I’ve found many snobs to attend the Universities like UD. Example, SMU in Dallas only costs around 22K per year to attend…ND is around 40 to 50K from my latest recollection, which at my age and stress level may be deminishing. The problem is how much the University charges. I can take courses from Franciscan Universitiy complete with materials for abourt $550 per 3 hour course and obtain a very orthodox Catholic education…The rest could be used to directly help the poor. No … I find it snobbish…having come from a family of money I find it terribly lacking in fiscal responsibility. So sorry to but your bubble…but missionary work comes form all Catholic Universities. And typically …well it’s my own stupid opinion…but I prefer to invest my money on helping people who are suffering… But that’s how we Franciscans feel about it all.

I’m not so bent that I really judge you or anyone else on this …but stop playing the “one upsmanship game” with me. I’ve been around too long and around the “Right” people to konw better. Like I said before…if that’s how you want to be known … then it’s your money and your reputation… But I’d love to find a statistic to see who stays faithful to the Church out of all the Universities. I’m sure it fluctuates. But having only been back to Catholicism since my problems with knucklehead Catholics that place themselves above everyone else… I went to the Church of Christ where we scoffed at that kind of thinking…it was finding Franciscan’s that seem to understand the concept of poverty that helped my wife and me come Home. My wife is the daughter of a bishop…but he was a sharecropper…poor to our standards. She never judged me on the basis of my financial worth. In fact that’s a good thing, because I was written out of the Will causing so much anxiety in my brother who couldn’t stand having to drop to our standards that he hung himself rather than accept a 50K per year job. So I make it my business to say things about this injustice in our world called classism. It literally kills people and families. Places like ND perpeptuate lies about social justice. But it really doesn’t matter. I just don’t want to be marginalized by another ND. So it’s not so much that the university provides financial aid it’s that they would justify being so out of reach to even the average family…judging is not sinful they way you are implying… Passing judgement is different and implies something different. Apparently that ND education didn’t teach you that.😉

Sorry if I sound edgy on this subject…but my wife and I have already been pushed into feeling like **** by ND people that use there money and influence to manipulate parish priests. SINFUL> and why aren’t they stopped…because the parishs need the money!..I tell them to pack their bags and go to another parish… It’s a moral issue. And apparently is shows that ND is in persuit of worldly things…the material…not justice. But tis true I do not need to attend or send my kids there…but that doesn’t let ND off the hook for being outragiously over the top expensive. If you want to compare yourself to other institutions…this not my business…this the way of the world…😃 😛
 
Vacatio,
We will have to agree to disagree. Yes…a Notre Dame education is very expensive. The university has gone from a log cabin building to a sprawling campus that ranks 19th of all national universities. It takes money to have done what they have done and to keep going further. However, because of the generosity of thousands of alumni who are graciously thankful for their Notre Dame education, the university is able to meet the financial needs of all of her students. It doesn’t matter what the price is as long as the financial need is met for those students who need assistance. Around 80% of all ND students need this assistance. You might find the following websites enlightening regarding the Catholic social justice that goes on at that university.

nd.edu/faith-and-service/catholic-tradition/
ace.nd.edu/
socialconcerns.nd.edu/about/

Most ND graduates give back to the less fortunate. It may be an expensive education, but a good one…and one that stresses our responsibility for all of God’s people…from conception until natural death.

By the way, most ND graduates have the utmost respect for other Catholic universities such as Franciscan, LMU, G’town, BC, Dayton, Duquesne…and the list goes on and on. We realize that they all have their own charism. Our charism at Notre Dame focuses on the Holy Cross mission to help those in need and “live by the Cross”.
 
Dear Ben Fischer,

FYI: Newman Centers and the Cardinal Newman Society are two different animals!!!

Newman Centers are Orgainizations which are located at colleges throughout the US to promote and support Catholic spirituality.

The Cardinal Newman Society is an ultra-conservative orgainization which has no relationship with Newman Centers. I would take whatever the CNS has to say with a grain of salt (prehaps with a whole shovel) LOL

Br Mark, OSB
 
Domer,
I’ve overstated a bit my feelings, but experience is that nothing is new under the sun. Giving…hmmn…that reminds me of a scripture I once read…okay read a whol lot…Luke 21:1-4
1 When he looked up he saw some wealthy people putting their offerings into the treasury 2 and he noticed a poor widow putting in two small coins. 3 He said, “I tell you truly, this poor widow put in more than all the rest; 4 for those others have all made offerings from their surplus wealth, but she, from her poverty, has offered her whole livelihood.”
This sums up my opinion. Just because we justify saying running a college is expensive…that just means you’re overpaying egotistic B----rds. It’s sad that Christians in general dont’ recognize this…it’s the sign of the times so to speak…materialism…we are a materialistic society. I’m sure there are many good people that go to ND. But I had to bring the reality check here. Remember Bruce Almighty? The End is near guy? That’s what I’m basically doing…thorn in your side… We agree to disagree… But I know I’m right on this one.😉 😃 Did I tell you I’m as stubborn as a Drill Sergeant? Well, I was an NCO…nearly killed by ROTC officers. Very lucky to be alive and actually walking. Texas Aggie turns out some pretty good officers… Probably prepare you a bit better for it all too. Notre Dame …never met an officer from there. I’d personally prefer to go to Catholic University over ND…However the rich history of ND is also very cool. I’d have a difficult time justifying spending so much money to send my children to school there know they’d end up falling away from the church…I’d rather make sure they stay Cahtolic and send them to a quiet place that would help them grow spiritually deep in the way God wants us…not the ways of the world.

You are right we must disagree on this point. I have an entire family that would side with you. But I never went there way…I’m the only orthodox Cahtolic in my family… The rest play both sides of the fense. Some of them also went to prestigious universities, private and public. I pray for them everyday…as I do the many that waste so much time trying to prove they’re good enough for the world and give just a little of themselves to Christ. Not enough…but if it’s all you have…then it’s all you have. We must seek peace however we interpret our fate. I wish you well…or in the words of Dr. Phil…“good luck with that”.

Lighting a candle for you tonight. Hoping to reach the deep corners of your heart to give to the point of hurting… All of you ND or other Ivy Leaguers. Rich Atchly, a church of Christ preacher, one said in one of his sermons…'take what you need and give the rest back"…not bad for a Protestant.
 
Texas Aggie turns out some pretty good officers… Probably prepare you a bit better for it all too. Notre Dame …never met an officer from there. I’d personally prefer to go to Catholic University over ND…However the rich history of ND is also very cool. I’d have a difficult time justifying spending so much money to send my children to school there know they’d end up falling away from the church…I’d rather make sure they stay Cahtolic and send them to a quiet place that would help them grow spiritually deep in the way God wants us…not the ways of the world.
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Vacatio:
Based on the above, this is starting to become a lot harsher than “agree to disagree”. We cannot do this when you continue to make personally insulting remarks. Why in the world would you bring Texas Aggies into this forum…not even a Catholic school…and to assume that their military program is better than that at Notre Dame?! I’m not saying they are or are not, but you have NOTHING substantial on which to base this remark!!! And to assume that all ND students fall away from the church! Where did you obtain your data? The fact is that you didn’t obtain it from anywhere (this data doesn’t exist). ALL of my friends and myself are proof that ND students don’t all fall away from the Church (I know of only one who has!). How insulting. I bust my butt to help my parish family every week teaching and gathering food and going to meetings etc… I feel very insulted. You really have to watch what you say…especially when it is so agregiously wrong that there’s no evidence in existence to ever back it up!

I’ll say a prayer for you as well. You are going to need to open your eyes and stop being so judgemental. Christ would never act this way, and if it’s one thing that Notre Dame has taught me, it’s to act Christ-like, full of humility and love for all God’s people. I truly do wish you the best and of course have no hard feelings against you. You are on my prayer list 🙂
 
Okay Drover, got get the ranch secure before going to bed… Sounds like you know what your doing…and I don’t know a thing about nothing…actually I hear a little guilt and self justification coming form the tone of you post. I’m not judgemental…that’s what people who have no defense say. I was trying to be little funny…but I guess that’s only a Texas thing. I was saying I’ve been in the military for 10 years…accepted to Officer Candiate School. I’ve never met a ND graduate…meaning I’ve never met a ND officer…but what I was saying is that if you read my ealier posts…Aggieland, which I do not like, has a good Carninal Newman Center according to Fr. Benedict Groschel. That’s all…I was suggesting that all that money spent on a good school could be spent in maybe a decent Public University. That’s all…nothing meant by it…but I realize I’ve crawled under you skin… time to leave it alone… But I made nothing but truthful remarks. Don’t go around throwing your degree at people… I see Notre Dame as an Opus Dei campus. Lots of sacrificing going on there. But it still strikes me as a materialistic campus. You sound exactly like the crazy woman at our parish that drives our Franciscan Friar’s crazy…ND too.

Sorry, but if the sho fits wear it… I said if your okay with your choices then nothing I say should make you so twisted towards me. Go to bed. I just tucked in my impoverished wife… If you served one day serving your country you’d know where the “attitude” comes from…but you and most of your kind pass the buck to those of us most suited for that job…you know the lowly…ignorant people that we are… I’m saying your service in your parish is great…just don’t walk all over them too like the crazy woman at our parish tends to do while acting pius all the while…one of your kind… Count your blessings as you come to realize the Lord has blessed you…just don’t be stingy with it and fire young single guys over the married guy with 3 children who is as capable but graduated from a different school. That’s what ND types do. Aggie land is my current advisary with the same proble. They promote Aggieland…that’s partly where the comparison comes from…Apparently you you’ve never had to work with an Aggie. They know everything…just ask them.

Yes…I’ve been recently walked all over and I find this OP discustingly worldly sounding and why I’ve feeling so bitter inside. You obviously not going to struggle in your life the way I do. I have a very high IQ and graduated with Honors…but only after enlisting to find a way to pay for my college. Then it was one thing after another…the have’s manipulating me out of every opportunity because I wasn’t part of their group. I’m sick and tired of being treated like dirt. If that’s what you think is being judgemental…then yes. I am judgemental towards those that marginalize my wife, children and me. People need a wakeup call to what it truly means to serve God. Peace and Justice. Moral Theology. etc. all much needed topics to engage. I have no doubt that I will fall in the minority of this subject. But with 90% Catholics not knowing their own faith…that’s actually a compliment. Caught me at a bad time in my life. Sorry to bother you.
 
Opus Dei -vs- Say …Franciscan… I can’t help but wonder how many Saints Opus Dei will produce compared to the Franciscan’s. Nothing against Opus Dei…just interesting thought. I wouldn’t trade our Franciscan Friar’s for an Opus Dei type anyday. It’s the most amazing experience I’ve ever encountered…truly the most transformed priests I’ve ever seen… I’m sure they have knuckleheads too. But it is the poverty that draws my family…the reason my son wants to be a Franciscan. The way you defend ND…you’d fit in really well with the Aggies if you were and Aggie…They’d defend their school like you too…not always a good thing to do…If something’s wrong you have to stand against it… I find some of them dummer than dirt at times…yet they have the answers to the secrets of life…with and engineering degree? They’re head of it all…just ask them…I’m sure ND is not as bigoted as Aggieland but you sure share the same mentality…but I can’t help but wonder why ND would draw any faithful Catholic. Just call me prejudiced against heterodoxy.
 
If the campus ministry is run by FOCUS, then you’re good.
I have no idea if Aggieland Newman is run by FOCUS, but I know it is one of the best.
UNL has FOCUS, and it is one of the best as well.
 
maybe those interested in derailing this thread should start their own ND thread. the topic of this one is the CNS college guide, which was compiled after surveying Catholic (not public or other private) institutions. Those colleges who did not complete the survey and so did not provide the info necessary to rank them according to the guide’s criteria are not included. so why don’t we discuss the guide? fortunately, somebody else has started another thread on the topic which you folks have not yet discovered and derailed, I won’t post a link so you don’t find it
 
Br. Mark, “The Cardinal Newman Society is an ultra-conservative orgainization which has no relationship with Newman Centers. I would take whatever the CNS has to say with a grain of salt (prehaps with a whole shovel) LOL”
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Br. Mark, with all respect, I disagree. The Cardinal Newman Society is a fine organization, and your remark - at the moment - holds no weight since you have not supported it with proof of where the CNS in the past has said anything which has distorted the truth about happenings or lack there-of at Catholic colleges and universities.

To the OP: I think what you feel called to do in the future holds a lot of weight in your decision.

I encourage you to look again at the CNS guide. St. Thomas Aquinas in Santa Paula is a very fine college, and one which is very academically challenging and selective in their students. It also has a very solid Catholic identity which in no way has ever been put to question.

“The Thomas Aquinas graduates, in my opinion, are very well equipped by their education for law study and for careers in the legal profession. They have a broad background in terms of knowledge, of course. But, more important, they know how to think. They are at ease with a broad range of subjects and, I am convinced, their ability to reason is incomparably better than what I have seen in even the superior students from any other colleges of which I know . . … Thomas Aquinas graduates are the best, period, paragraph.” - Charles Rice, Professor Notre Dame Law School

thomasaquinas.edu/
thomasaquinas.edu/alumni/profiles.htm

The colleges and universities mentioned in the CNS have very challenging academics and you will walk away, I am sure, well-equipped for graduate school and the beginning of your career. Perhaps you should do a summer study program at some of the schools mentioned in the CNS. That will help you better in your discernment, as it will give you a taste for what studying there will be like. All of those schools mentioned in the CNS have some of the finest reputations. While the world does not value them in the same way it does Harvard or Yale remember that the world did not value Christ or His teachings either. It rather laughed and mocked him as if he were stupid or ridiculous. Continue to pray. I will remember you in prayer.
 
I chose a college that is very liberal, nominally Christian, and definitely not on that list. However, the academics are amazing, I’ve grown stronger in my faith (I’ve had to defend it and I’ve found an excellent Catholic community on campus as well as an interdenominational Christian club), and I’ve found that my life is going in the direction it was meant to go into.

Bottom line, use it as a guide but remember, going to a Catholic university doesn’t guarantee that you will keep the faith and going to a non-Catholic university doesn’t guarantee that you will lose it. Most of the devout Catholics I know have never strayed from their faith and were raised in it from birth. A couple are even discerning religious life and our priest is a Dominican and very orthodox. Also, if all the good Catholics go to Catholic universities, who’s going to be witness at the non-Catholic universities?
 
livingoutloud said:
The Newman Guide is great, but none of the colleges there have the academic reputation of Notre Dame, Georgetown, or Yale. What’s a person supposed to do who wants a school with an excellent reputation?
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I might get flak for this, but here goes.

**Ignore the Cardinal Newman Society. **

If you are smart enough to stand up to the challenge of the academic rigor at Notre Dame (my beloved alma mater–full disclosure 👍), Georgetown, Yale, and are an active, faithful, and educated Catholic, you will be selling yourself short to go to their highly-recommended Wyoming Catholic College, which is yet-unaccredited, whose temporary campus is the parish center of a small church in a small town, and which has not yet graduated a single class of undergraduates. It just seems to me that they [CNS] don’t know what they are talking about, on many accounts.

What do we need to have excellent Catholic universities? Excellent Catholic undergraduates to go on to graduate school–at universities of the highest caliber. It’s not impossible for someone from Wyoming Catholic College to get into Yale Divinity or Oxford, I’m sure, but it’s much less likely. I’m sorry, but at these non-accredited institutions (even Ave Maria is still waiting on accreditation!!) you are simply not going to get faculty good enough to educate undergrads so they can continue on to graduate work, or even have an education rivaling that at many other top universities. A great books program is great, but you need great teachers to go along with the great books, and the tiny, even ‘mandatum-certified,’ schools that CNS recommends simply cannot offer them.

I was actually interviewed about my experience at Notre Dame by someone from CNS. (They included analysis of ND in the appendix-- “What about Notre Dame?”) Honestly, a lot of their info about ND was outdated by a few years–and a lot has happened w/ our administration in the last couple of years!

Besides–what, honestly, has more of an impact on my educational experience: the presence of a contingent of students intent on performing *The Vagina Monologues *every spring, or amazing Catholic intellectuals among the faculty who shape my mind and bring Catholic thought to life in a variety of disciplines, out of love for Christ, His Mother, and Her University?

CNS is probably well-intentioned, but they are going about it in the wrong way. Certainly it is a problem when things directly contrary to Catholic teaching are presented in the classroom of a Catholic university–but that’s when you stand up and call the University back to its Catholic tradition, roots, and mission, which they cannot ignore.

Bright, young Catholic undergrads are needed at the best schools, Catholic or otherwise, to transform the culture and to truly learn how their faith interacts with what they read in the classroom. Visit the schools you’re interested in, talk to students, and most importantly pray for discernment. You’ll end up where God wants you, CNS-approved or not! 😃
 
Domer1997 said:
how are good Catholics supposed to know how horrible the play is and the ulterior motives of the play if they aren’t allowed to read it for academic purposes?
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This is as ridiculous as saying, “How can a good law abiding citizen know how bad cocaine is without trying it?” You don’t need to experience something to know it is bad: A smart man learns from his mistakes, a truly wise man learns from those of others.
 
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