The Case Against Contraception

  • Thread starter Thread starter sw85
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
With reference to whether or not there is a Purgatory. Suppose that someone dies and has not repented of his lessor sins. Would that person go to heaven or to hell?
heaven. if he was christian and lived his life trying to follow jesus. we preach that our spirits are instintainsly cleaned. the idea that we go somewhere and spend time there getting your spirit cleaned doesnt make sense to us because then the question is how long will you be there and then who decides this and who was keeping track of all your sins? not God bc he keeps no record of our sins or our good deads. basically doesnt keep track of our actions, he sees whats in our hearts, and this is what he judges by. But i personallly think this is notsomething we should argue on. well we shouldnt argue period. my point with this is we have differnt views affter death. so what. we both belive in heaven and God.

as far as luther taking books out of the bible it was bc the books he wanted in were ones that there was no debate over there authenticity. there are a few books not in a non-catholic bible bc there is some debate on who actually wrote them. same with the catholic bible. The church has many books that they think might belong in the bible but are not sure about there authenticity.
 
Don’t you know that he rejected books from the Bible, with which he disagreed? That’s why Lutherans don’t know the teaching that “it is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.” (2 Macc 12:46).
.
this should help with the whole removing the books problem.

There is sometimes a lot of confusion surrounding the difference between the “Roman Catholic Bible” and the “Protestant Bible” and Luther’s part in all that.

First, it should be noted that the official canon of the Christian Bible was not formally ironed out by the 16th Century. Part of the reason was that there was no real reason, since the church controlled access to the Bible anyway. Once the printing presses began producing Luther’s German translation of the Bible, things began to change. Luther’s translation was the first successful (in that he and his books escaped the flames that thwarted earlier attempts such as Tyndale) edition of the Bible in the vernacular–the language of the people in a particular place. Now many people had their own editions of the Scriptures and could read them in their own homes.

Before it went to press, Luther had to make a decision on what books made up the Bible. The gray area at the time was what we call the Apocrypha. They are also often called “The Deutercanonical” books. They are a small collection that mostly reflect history and writings from what would call “in between the Testaments” --from about 400 BCE to the Time of Jesus.

In Luther’s time, the debate over these books centered on their origin. The books in question are found in the Greek version of the Old Testament, called “The Septuagint” (a translation from the Hebrew done about 100 years before Jesus), but not in Hebrew versions. Complicating the issue, Jewish scholar had no firm opinion whether or not they were “Scripture” or just holy books. Luther chose to follow the latter, saying that books were useful and instructive but not Scripture. He went with the “Hebrew only” side of the debate, and left these books out.

The Roman Catholic Counter-Reformation reacted with a Canon of their own and at the Council of Trent, officially dictated that the Biblical Canon included the books Protestants now called the Apocrypha.

So the difference between a “Catholic” Bible and a “Protestant” one centers around whether to include these books in the Old Testament or either not at all or in a separate section (which some Bible have).

As for the Revelation text, it is really important to note that that verse only refers to the “message of this book” i.e Revelation, not the whole book of the Bible (since it was not yet compiled as the book we know). It is interesting to note that for the past 500 years Protestants AND Roman Catholics have been using that exact verse against each other in the debate over these books. They are, in that case, both wrong.

we as lutherans do read these other books. they just arent in our bible. and they are all from the old testament. . we belive that when Jesus died for our sins, new testament, that all sins were erased. we see praying for the dead like saying jesus death was not good enough to wipe clean all your sins, only some.
 
alfred14
First, it should be noted that the official canon of the Christian Bible was not formally ironed out by the 16th Century.
Incorrect.
Luther rejected them because they did not conform to his selfist theological theories of justification by faith alone, his rejection of purgatory etc. Most non-Catholic Bibles are missing seven books and thus many miss out on vital truths as they follow Luther’s error of “Scripture Only” (Sola Scriptura).

The books that actually are the inspired Word of God was decided by Pope Damasus at a Council of Rome in 382, confirmed at the Councils of Hippo, 393, Carthage III 397, Carthage IV in 419, and canonised at the Council of Trent (1545-1563). There was no difference in books between the Councils of Rome and Trent and the 73 books comprising the Word of God is final – there can be no deviation.

From the all–inclusive authority given by Christ to St Peter (post #340) as His Supreme Vicar of His Church, and no other ecclesial community, only that authority can legitimately bind and loose on faith and morals.
 
heaven. if he was christian and lived his life trying to follow jesus. we preach that our spirits are instintainsly cleaned. the idea that we go somewhere and spend time there getting your spirit cleaned doesnt make sense to us because then the question is how long will you be there and then who decides this and who was keeping track of all your sins? not God bc he keeps no record of our sins or our good deads. basically doesnt keep track of our actions, he sees whats in our hearts, and this is what he judges by. But i personallly think this is notsomething we should argue on. well we shouldnt argue period. my point with this is we have differnt views affter death. so what. we both belive in heaven and God.

as far as luther taking books out of the bible it was bc the books he wanted in were ones that there was no debate over there authenticity. there are a few books not in a non-catholic bible bc there is some debate on who actually wrote them. same with the catholic bible. The church has many books that they think might belong in the bible but are not sure about there authenticity.
But the Holy Bible says that nothing unclean will ever enter into heaven. If you have some lessor sins on your soul, you are not perfectly clean. So how can you go into heaven? Revelation 21:27
 
This is slightly on and off topic at the same time. I find it quite interesting that the teachings of the Church that most people seem to have issues with are the ones that a particular individual has problems conforming to. Take this topic for example. A person will go to any length (studying, looking up scientific data, etc.) to prove something wrong if it contradicts the lifestyle they want to lead. I understand that some of the answers a person might get to the question of why ABC is wrong but not NFP may sound as if they make no sense, “couldn’t hold water”, but we need to understand that just because something doesn’t make sense to us or is hard to conform to doesn’t make it wrong. Either Jesus gave the keys to Peter and the Church or He did not. Period. Take masturbation for example. I’ve seen time and time again when someone who was struggling with this sin would find any scientific data they could to ‘prove’ how it was not only not wrong but healthy to do. On the other hand, someone who is not struggling with this particular sin will find it very easy to understand the Church’s teaching on why it is sinful. The Holy Spirit either guides the Church on ALL matters of faith and morals or it does not. The Church is either 100% correct on the issue of ABC or 100% wrong on matters of faith and morals because with the Holy Spirit there is no middle ground.
 
louis91766
But the Holy Bible says that nothing unclean will ever enter into heaven. If you have some lessor sins on your soul, you are not perfectly clean. So how can you go into heaven? Revelation 21:27
That is precisely why Christ gave us His Church – to teach us without error, and She gave us the Bible – the Sacred Scriptures – the Word of God.

That’s why God made Purgatory – for those who need cleansing from venial sin. Why have you rejected “it is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.” (2 Macc 12:46)?
 
That is precisely why Christ gave us His Church – to teach us without error, and She gave us the Bible – the Sacred Scriptures – the Word of God.

That’s why God made Purgatory – for those who need cleansing from venial sin. Why have you rejected “it is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.” (2 Macc 12:46)?
I have not rejected Purgatory, I am giving reasons why it must exist.
 
But the Holy Bible says that nothing unclean will ever enter into heaven. If you have some lessor sins on your soul, you are not perfectly clean. So how can you go into heaven? Revelation 21:27
i belive every scripture written that backs purgatory ideas is in the old testament. Jesus has died for our sins so that we no longer have to pay for them. that is why we are so gratefull to Jesus. I belive that God wipes clean all my sins when i die, as long as i belive in him and i have honestly tried to live a good life.
 
Incorrect.
Luther rejected them because they did not conform to his selfist theological theories of justification by faith alone, his rejection of purgatory etc. Most non-Catholic Bibles are missing seven books and thus many miss out on vital truths as they follow Luther’s error of “Scripture Only” (Sola Scriptura).
you must first understand that luther was wanting to decide what books to include in the bible when it was mass printed and that he wanted the books to be based on gospel only. so a book in the bible that didnt focus on God as the center point he wanted thrown out. the following are some of his reasons he didnt think that some of these books belonged in the book.

“Job spoke not as it stands written in his book, but only had such thoughts. It is merely the argument of a fable. It is probable that Solomon wrote and made this book.”…

“Ecclesiastes ought to have been more complete. There is too much incoherent matter in it…Solomon did not, therefore, write this book.”…

some of the things martin luther did we Lutherans disagree with. these things are later in his life when the catholic church had people trying to kill him.

I dont think thats a verry cristian thing to do.
 
you must first understand that luther was wanting to decide what books to include in the bible when it was mass printed and that he wanted the books to be based on gospel only. so a book in the bible that didnt focus on God as the center point he wanted thrown out…
Yes, I think we all know this or can agree with it…but it’s whether he had any authority to make that decision that would come to mind. I will refrain from answering to that point and concede that you have a reasonable topic for a good debate. How about you start another thread on this matter and we can continue there?

Back to topic,

Eternal Jade, you are confusing the Church’s teaching with Good daughter’s viewpoint (or the OP’s, or any one else’s that has defended Church teaching on contraception, the marital union, etc…). This is not Good daughter’s view, except for the fact that her view is one with the Church. If you are truly considering becomcing a Catholic, you need to realize 1.) what the Church’s teaching is, and 2.) the fact that is does not change.

We cannot bend Church teaching to suit our needs. We cannot accept only the parts of the teaching that we like and dimiss what we do not. When you profess your Catholic Faith, you profess your intent to assent to all the Doctrines of the Faith (everything that is in the Catechism, to say the least). This is not a pick-n-choose Church. This is the Church that Christ established and Her teachings are those of Christ Himself.

In 28 pages and over 400 posts, there has yet to be anything said, nor document referred to, that has shown the OP to be wrong in this case against contraception.
 
i belive every scripture written that backs purgatory ideas is in the old testament. Jesus has died for our sins so that we no longer have to pay for them. that is why we are so gratefull to Jesus. I belive that God wipes clean all my sins when i die, as long as i belive in him and i have honestly tried to live a good life.
Suppose though that you have not lived a good life, then what?
 
Good daughter, I did answer your question with my viewpoint. I don’t take those verses as literally or technically as you do. The marital embrace is “unitive” physically because it is a bodily activity and even more importantly unity is a state of mind or a bond between a couple. For example two people who don’t want to be having sex together would not be having unifying sex, even with no contraceptives. This is why rape isn’t unifying. I have a different outlook on " one flesh" and “physically unitive” than you do. I believe one flesh is spiritual and emotional, and the act itself is bodily. Not down to the technicalities of the act.
We know that God’s will for married couples is that they become ‘one flesh’. How do you think we accomplish this in a physical sense?
 
In 28 pages and over 400 posts, there has yet to be anything said, nor document referred to, that has shown the OP to be wrong in this case against contraception.
That makes this thread’s OP an excellent reference for future discussions regarding the Catholic position on contraception. Well done, sw85.
 
Suppose though that you have not lived a good life, then what?
No one has lived a “good life” we all live sinfull lives. Do we try to follow God, do we try to do what is right. God judges our hearts and decides what are intentions are. this is why jesus was so mad at the high priest back in his time. he talks about them puting on clothes to represent saddnes and crying out loud in the streats and praying infront of everyone. there intentions are wrong. thus they go to hell. if your intentions are good you go to heaven. If we say sorry God i did xy and z wrong please forgive me and help me not repeat these sins they are wiped clean. this is the main reason were called lutherans, we focus on the fact that it is by faith alone that we are saved. but before anyone takes “faith alone” out of context i will state that with faith comes actions. If you have Faith in God your Actions will represnet this.
 
No one has lived a “good life” we all live sinfull lives. Do we try to follow God, do we try to do what is right. God judges our hearts and decides what are intentions are. this is why jesus was so mad at the high priest back in his time. he talks about them puting on clothes to represent saddnes and crying out loud in the streats and praying infront of everyone. there intentions are wrong. thus they go to hell. if your intentions are good you go to heaven. If we say sorry God i did xy and z wrong please forgive me and help me not repeat these sins they are wiped clean. this is the main reason were called lutherans, we focus on the fact that it is by faith alone that we are saved. but before anyone takes “faith alone” out of context i will state that with faith comes actions. If you have Faith in God your Actions will represnet this.
So regardless of the misery, heartbreak, agony and pain you have caused others, you go straight to heaven and have a great time in heaven, while those on earth have to suffer because of the terrible harm you have done to them?
 
So regardless of the misery, heartbreak, agony and pain you have caused others, you go straight to heaven and have a great time in heaven, while those on earth have to suffer because of the terrible harm you have done to them?
if you were trying to do good. and your heart and intentions were in the right direction yes. when we die we go to heaven. are main reason for beliving this is that the only signs of purgatory are in the old testament before jesus died for our sins. when he died for our sins all the sins we do from that poin on have been paid for. so long as we belive in christ.
 
I couldn’t be bothered reading thru like 28 pages of this but i just wanna share that on friday, after Communion, i was praying 2 Jesus, thanking him for giving me the fortitude 2 bow my head+receive on the tongue. He said “It’s time now, you can do it, and it will be easy”. I couldn’t believe it. He was giving me the courage to go to the doc+ have my contraceptive device removed! Even tho I’m celibate it’s still wrong. It’s taken months for me to feel this way. I’ve booked an appointment and it will be out of my body on friday 2nd sept. 2 months ago a priest said i should have it removed but not to rush it. I didn’t know how long it would take. Now its happened. I carried on receiving in the meantime because the intention to eventually get the device removed was there. Anyway, I’m doing this, not because i want to, but because God wants me to+he’s giving me the strength 2 do it!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top