I
inJESUS
Guest
Ok am confused Zerinus. Do you mean that Jesus is indeed present in the Eucharist, but in Spirit?
- Status
T
teadough
Guest
The Verdict is in!!!:yup:Case# 2000-The Case Against Transubstantiation
Case Closed. Catholic Church wins by the majority vote given by Jesus Christ Himself.:clapping:
`
Thanks to all who participated in this thread. Congratulations Catholic Church!! You have proven yourself once again :tiphat:
Warning!!! When you try to :juggle: Scriptures you :banghead:
:dancing: = Catholic Church
:crying: = Anyone who trys to prevail against her
`
I
inJESUS
Guest
Can someone please explain to me the LDS position? is it correct they believe Jesus is indeed present but in Spirit?
M
mark_a
Guest
We take Jesus’ words literally concerning the eucharist.
We also take His words literally concerning marriage.
Who has flip-flopped on the marriage issue and who hasn’t?
J
J_C
Guest
first, z wrote this,
and then a little later he took the “easy rout out, too” by the following:
and:
and:
L
LilyM
Guest
Zerinus, judging by previous posts you clearly see the correlation between the Passover lamb, whose flesh (literal and not symbolic) and blood (literal and not symbolic) saved the Israelites.
Why would you think that Jesus would replace a literal reality with a mere symbol?
And if we presume that a mere symbolic or spiritual presence of His flesh and blood is sufficient for our salvation, then why did Christ have to really die and literally shed His blood in the first place? Why not do so in some sort of symbolic way? For example, He could have declared that the bread and wine were symbolic of His body and blood and left it at that without undergoing the agony of the Crucifixion.
Why would you think that Jesus would replace a literal reality with a mere symbol?
And if we presume that a mere symbolic or spiritual presence of His flesh and blood is sufficient for our salvation, then why did Christ have to really die and literally shed His blood in the first place? Why not do so in some sort of symbolic way? For example, He could have declared that the bread and wine were symbolic of His body and blood and left it at that without undergoing the agony of the Crucifixion.
O
O.S.Luke
Guest
Real presence ≠ transubstantiation.Your second paragraph seems to contradict your first paragraph. Oh well!
Besides, making categorical assertions doesn’t really mean anything unless you can back it up with sound arguments.
zerinus
However, the bread and wine do become the Body and Blood Christ. Christ is really present - but it defies explanation.
O+
P
PatrickJT914
Guest
I wish to thank all of you for totally blowing off my earlier post! I asked if anybody knew about Eucharistic Miracles. Because if Zerinus wanted proof about the Eucharist being the Body and Blood of Jesus,he could’ve been referred to that topic.
Again Thanks a lot. NOT!
T
teadough
Guest
The Eucharist itself is a Miracle. I don’t think people were blowing you off but many feel that showing someone a link in which people claim to have witnessed the type of Miracle you are talking about is not what I am interested in people learning about.Sorry I could not be of mutch help in the matter. The same thing would go for Mary Aparitions,too.
P
PatrickJT914
Guest
Teadough,
Thank you for responding to my concern.That is very nice of you to do that. I was feeling a little disrespected. I apologize for being a little sensitive. I think I may have reacted out of grief. On 7 April 2008, my Mom will have been dead for 10 months, it still very much hurts. I’ve lost my last and truly close relative. I have 3 half sisters, that my Mom put for adoption, 3 cousins and an Aunt that are distant in miles and relationship.
I apologize for starting to give you a family history. But I just wanted to show you. My possible mindset at the time.
I think at this time I won’t make anymore comments on this thread
because I don’t think I have anything worth while to say on the topic. Besides you and the others are making better points and giving out better information. That I can give.
Thank you for responding to my concern.That is very nice of you to do that. I was feeling a little disrespected. I apologize for being a little sensitive. I think I may have reacted out of grief. On 7 April 2008, my Mom will have been dead for 10 months, it still very much hurts. I’ve lost my last and truly close relative. I have 3 half sisters, that my Mom put for adoption, 3 cousins and an Aunt that are distant in miles and relationship.
I apologize for starting to give you a family history. But I just wanted to show you. My possible mindset at the time.
I think at this time I won’t make anymore comments on this thread
because I don’t think I have anything worth while to say on the topic. Besides you and the others are making better points and giving out better information. That I can give.
Thanks again (No really this time)
C
Cleopas
Guest
But then that is exactly why Christ’s words cannot be taken literally.
As literally as the 1st paschal lambs were sacrificed to cover Israel and to free them from bondage so Christ’s actually offering of His body and blood was to cover our sins, to atone for us, and free us from slavery to sin.
Likewise, in as much as the following Passovers were memorials, and those paschal lambs were not the very same lambs offered in Egypt, so the bread and wine of communion are a memorial to the atoning sacrificial work of Christ, and are not His actual offered body and blood.
Communion is a transcendent form of the Passover Seder for New Covenant believers. It cannot be properly understood outside of it’s correlation with the Jewish Exodus Passover and the commemorative Passover seders that followed.
T
teadough
Guest
So sorry for your loss. And once again. I am sure nobody was blowing you off. I know exactly what you are talking about when it comes to the types of Miracle you mentioned
(((Prayers))) for you
Links:
Not sure if this will help but being that I am at work and have some time I thought I would post these links
therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html
members.aol.com/bjw1106/euchmir.htm
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharistic_miracle
katolik.nu/now/html/mirac.htm
P
PetersKeys
Guest
sigh circular logic
so its a matter of your fallible conscious.
are you infallible?
the real presence was never denied until 1500 years after the crucifiction. You base your opinion on fallible reformers
this is what heresy does to people. They break off one by one until no one has the right interperatation of scripture. Mormonism is nothing but a breakoff of protestantism. Christ’s body is one and the Mormon Church has no historical connection to Jesus and the Apostles.
You deny Jesus’s promise to the Church that it will be led by the holy spirit until the end of time. Since you claim the church is errored you claim Jesus’s promise never came true then. There is no reason for a “restoration” if the Holy Spirit is already guiding the church from the begining. And any human who thinks there needs to be one speaks from pride inside and out.
Z
zerinus
Guest
We believe that the Eucharist is indeed a sacrament; just as baptism by immersion, or the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands are sacraments; and therefore it is able to impart to us “grace,” in Catholic terminology. In the LDS Church we do not use those kinds of terminologies. We have developed our own theological terms for these things. But the Catholics use it, and that is OK with me. I am trying to use a language that Catholics are familiar with and can understand. So, if you want to define the sacramental “grace” of the Eucharist in terms of a “spiritual presence” of Christ in the sacrament, I am OK with that; as long as you are not going to tell me that those emblems physically turn into “flesh and blood,” which according to Jesus Himself “profiteth nothing” (John 6:63).
zerinus
P
PetersKeys
Guest
That is true that it is a miracle. In fact there are many miracles where the host does turn into actual flesh and blood. He asked that it should change into literal flesh and blood, well here are some cases where it has.The Eucharist itself is a Miracle. I don’t think people were blowing you off but many feel that showing someone a link in which people claim to have witnessed the type of Miracle you are talking about is not what I am interested in people learning about.Sorry I could not be of mutch help in the matter. The same thing would go for Mary Aparitions,too.
therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharistic_miracle
How many churches can back up that claim? Only one. The miracles of the Saints ALONE is enough to testify of the Church’s truth.
Z
zerinus
Guest
The sacrifice itself was not symbolic. That sacrifice was of the real flesh and real blood of Jesus Christ. But it was performed once, and it needed to be performed only once. The Eucharist is a commemoration of that sacrifice, to be done in remembrance of Him. It is not a repetition of that sacrifice.
zerinus
I
inJESUS
Guest
I
inJESUS
Guest
ok so bear with me please. If Christ is spiritually present in the bread and wine, does it mean it is simply bread and wine (you can step on them and walk with good conscience) or bread and wine with Jesus IN (with Spirit) and hence must be treated as if Jesus is in them?
O
O.S.Luke
Guest
By the power of the Holy Spirit, the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ. They are also bread and wine - a wonderful and inexplainable mystery. I’d prefer not to step on them or dispose of them in the refuge, tho.
H
Harpazo
Guest
This is in Wesleyan Methodism, not the 2,000 year history of the Holy Catholic Church.
We believe it IS the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, Our Lord. It is no longer bread and wine. PERIOD. Transubstantiation is just a term to simply re-state the above statement, a short cut if you will.
Please see my post on post #18. I replied to something you said and I hope you will address it.
Al-Masih Qam
Andrew
- Status