The Case Against Transubstantiation

[I_Luv_Adoration]

Jesus did correct His disciples for taking His words too literally.
zerinus

Z,
Jesus also warned the diciples and us to watch out for false teachers and prophets, several times in Mathew.The Saduccess and Pharisses are the high priest of there day but they only preach and condem the people for there own power and control.In there hearts they do not want to help the people.They are looking out for themsleve!!! In there hearts they want to be glorified and praised,They are not following what God has ask them . In case you have yet to read the bible try mathew 16:1-12 also Mathew 23 1-36.

 

[zerinus]

that is you saying is it not? obviously i could tell the same that i have the testimony of the Holy Ghost, could i not? like many others do the same. the protestants claim the same thing. they say each one of them are inspired by the Holy Ghost to interpret Scriptures? unless you dont know much about these religions or even listen to them. is it not true that Jesus said that the HG would lead the apostles into all truth?

Okay, let me try to explain it this way: let’s suppose there are two people; one of them claims that he has the testimony of the Holy Ghost that Mormonism is true, and the other one says that he has the testimony of the Holy Ghost that Mormonism is false. Obviously both cannot be true. One or both of them could either be lying, or has been deceived. You are the third person looking at these two, and trying to determine for yourself whether Mormonism is true or not. If you have the faith and conviction that it is possible to know divine truth by the power of the Holy Ghost (as the scriptures attest), you will seek to obtain that witness for yourself. When you have obtained it, then you are in a position to know for yourself who has been lying and who has been telling the truth. If you don’t have the faith and trust in God to seek that divine witness, then you will choose a different option. That is up to you. All I can say is that I have sought that witness by faith, and know that Mormonism is true. How you choose to respond to that testimony is entirely up to you.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

then you have never heard, but that doesn’t mean an appeal to the inner voice of God is not made. God does speak to our hearts, in that still small voice. i have led a few to faith, and have always asked them to pray, read the scriptures, and listen to God speak in the quiet of contemplation.

the apparentl difference between us is that mormons get revelation about factual things, such as history, archaeology, and the like, while orthodox Christians get gentle leadings into the moral truths of God’s word. We would never depend upon personal revelation for new doctrinal things, but we would depend upon it to confirm that the doctrines of the Church are true and to be obeyed. factual things, such as the structure of the universe, or whetther it is true that the American natives come from Palestine, would not, we believe, be revealed directly by God.

We don’t seek to obtain revelation about archaeology. We seek revelation to know if the Book of Mormon is the word of God or not. If that does not suit your disposition, then don’t. Our message is not for you. It is for those who feel they can exercise that faith; and there are many that do.

zerinus

 

[wisdomseeker]

Okay, let me try to explain it this way: let’s suppose there are two people; one of them claims that he has the testimony of the Holy Ghost that Mormonism is true, and the other one says that he has the testimony of the Holy Ghost that Mormonism is false. Obviously both cannot be true. One or both of them could either be lying, or has been deceived. You are the third person looking at these two, and trying to determine for yourself whether Mormonism is true or not. If you have the faith and conviction that it is possible to know divine truth by the power of the Holy Ghost (as the scriptures attest), you will seek to obtain that witness for yourself. When you have obtained it, then you are in a position to know for yourself who has been lying and who has been telling the truth. If you don’t have the faith and trust in God to seek that divine witness, then you will choose a different option. That is up to you. All I can say is that I have sought that witness by faith, and know that Mormonism is true. How you choose to respond to that testimony is entirely up to you.

zerinus

obviously we are discussing about mormons and other religions and not if mormon is false or true. not all are mormons, many have other faiths which they also claim that they are the ones who have the truth. now how do you determine which one has the truth? there is only one truth and not many truths correct?
is it not written that Jesus said that HG would lead the apostles into all truth?

 

[zerinus]

obviously we are discussing about mormons and other religions and not if mormon is false or true. not all are mormons, many have other faiths which they also claim that they are the ones who have the truth. now how do you determine which one has the truth? there is only one truth and not many truths correct?

The same as above. You can change the above scenario to suite your particular test case.

zerinus

 

[wisdomseeker]

The same as above. You can change the above scenario to suite your particular test case.

zerinus

so you are saying that is up to me to determine which one holds the truth. and if i cannot determine, what happens then?

 

[ctlw83]

By the testimony of the Holy Ghost.

zerinus

Um, this is also what Luther and Calvin claimed. They say that the Holy Ghost was their true inspiration into the truth of the scripture. Yet they did not see the same truth, nor did the founder of the Baptists, nor Mormonism, nor Pentecostals, nor any other founder of any other Protestant denomination. All claim they are inspired by the Holy Ghost, and all believe something different about MANY doctrines such as Baptism etc.

If all of this is inspired by the Holy Ghost, who is God, and God wants us to be one people, one Church, one body, how is it that once the true teaching on the Eucharist was removed out of the equation that there have been many divisions, up to twenty-thousand Protestant split offs?

Why is the Holy Ghost’s inspiration any different for Mormonism, than it is for any other church that claims His inspiration?

 

[J_C]

We don’t seek to obtain revelation about archaeology. We seek revelation to know if the Book of Mormon is the word of God or not. If that does not suit your disposition, then don’t. Our message is not for you. It is for those who feel they can exercise that faith; and there are many that do.

zerinus

That’s OK, i understand.

one more question if you don’t mind: when you say, “The Book of Mormon is True” do you mean that every iota of it is factually true?

 

[zerinus]

so you are saying that is up to me to determine which one holds the truth. and if i cannot determine, what happens then?

We believe that the promises of God are sure; they will not fail. I can only talk about Mormonism, because that is my religion. In the Book of Mormon the following promise is contained:

Moroni 10:

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.

7 And ye may know that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore I would exhort you that ye deny not the power of God; for he worketh by power, according to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever.

We believe that if you trust the Lord and apply the test, God is faithful, and will fulfil His part of the promise, and you will know that it is true.

zerinus

 

[Stephen168]

Jesus [often] spoke in hyperbole
John 6:53-57 is [obviously] hyperbole
Therefore no transubstantiation

zerinus

Is John 6:25-70 hyperbole?

 

[ctlw83]

You keep saying that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

The Princess Bide (awesome movie)

Hyperbole (pronounced /haɪˈpɝːbəli/ hye-PER-buh-lee; “HYE-per-bowl” is a mispronunciation) comes from greek “υπερβολή”=exaggeration and is a figure of speech in which statements are exaggerated. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, and is not meant to be taken literally or an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally.

Hyperbole is used to create emphasis. It is often used in poetry and is a literary device.

Some examples include:

* "He has a brain the size of a pea."
* "I'm so hungry I could eat a horse."
* "If I've told you once, I've told you a million times."
* "She is one-hundred feet tall."
* "Everything around me feels small."

 

[zerinus]

That’s OK, i understand.

one more question if you don’t mind: when you say, “The Book of Mormon is True” do you mean that every iota of it is factually true?

I don’t know about “iotas”. It is written by fallible men—prophets though they were. When I say that the Book of Mormon is true, I mean that it is factually, historically, doctrinally, and theologically true. I mean that the events described in it actually happened, and the people that are mentioned in it by name actually lived. I mean that it is a book of scripture written by ancient prophets that lived on the American continent, just like the Bible; and that it contains the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is true in the same way that the Bible is true. I mean that its translation process into the English language was carried out by a miraculous process, or by the gift and power of God as described. That is what I mean by its being true.

zerinus

 

[J_C]

I don’t know about “iotas”. It is written by fallible men—prophets though they were. When I say that the Book of Mormon is true, I mean that it is factually, historically, doctrinally, and theologically true. I mean that the events described in it actually happened, and the people that are mentioned in it by name actually lived. I mean that it is a book of scripture written by ancient prophets that lived on the American continent, just like the Bible; and that it contains the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I mean that its translation process into the English language was carried out by a miraculous process, or by the gift and power of God as described. That is what I mean by its being true.

zerinus

thanks. i don’t want to completely derail this thread, so i will save my next question for another day and another thread.

 

[wisdomseeker]

We believe that the promises of God are sure; they will not fail. I can only talk about Mormonism, because that is my religion. In the Book of Mormon the following promise is contained:

Moroni 10:

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.

7 And ye may know that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore I would exhort you that ye deny not the power of God; for he worketh by power, according to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever.

We believe that if you trust the Lord and apply the test, God is faithful, and will fulfil His part of the promise, and you will know that it is true.

zerinus

you are dodging my question though. that is the problem you claim being led by the HG and found the truth. many others that i talked to claim the same thing, they all were led by the HG and found the truth. are we all right or are we all wrong? which one? my main question is how do you determine the Truth? what criteria should we use besides the claim of inspiration of the HG to determine where the Truth lies?

 

[zerinus]

thanks. i don’t want to completely derail this thread, so i will save my next question for another day and another thread.

I am not worried about derailing threads. Feel free to ask any question you like. The main subject of the thread is still there for people to comment on for as long as they want to.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

Is John 6:25-70 hyperbole?

You know the definition of a hyperbole. It is a rhetorical exaggeration for effect which if taken literally would be impossible or highly improbable. Those passages which talk about literally eating His flesh and drinking His blood are obvious hyperboles, as swallowing a camel is an obvious hyperbole.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

you are dodging my question though. that is the problem you claim being led by the HG and found the truth. many others that i talked to claim the same thing, they all were led by the HG and found the truth. are we all right or are we all wrong? which one? my main question is how do you determine the Truth? what criteria should we use besides the claim of inspiration of the HG to determine where the Truth lies?

I am not dodging the issue at all. Your question has already been answered adequately earlier on, and I believe well understood. I have nothing further to add to what I have already said.

zerinus

 

[Stephen168]

You know the definition of a hyperbole. It is a rhetorical exaggeration for effect which if taken literally would be impossible or highly improbable. Those passages which talk about literally eating His flesh and drinking His blood are obvious hyperboles, as swallowing a camel is an obvious hyperbole.

zerinus

Like, “I’m so hungry I could eat a horse” means I’m hungry but I couldn’t really eat a horse.

What does Jesus really mean?

 

[wisdomseeker]

I am not dodging the issue at all. Your question has already been answered adequately earlier on, and I believe well understood. I have nothing further to add to what I have already said.

zerinus

thank you. it is obviously to me that you are afraid to find where the truth lies. and you are not as sure as you think you are, if you have the truth.

 

[zerinus]

Like, “I’m so hungry I could eat a horse” means I’m hungry but I couldn’t really eat a horse.

What does Jesus really mean?

I presume you are referring to the scriptural passages that you had referenced (John 6:25-70). There He is having a conversation with the Jews about the “bread of life” that came down from heaven (meaning Himself), which bread, or manna, if anyone eat will live for ever (i.e. have eternal life); in contrast to the manna that Moses gave, which only made them live for a short period of time, but not forever. That manna was His flesh which He would give for the world (as a sacrifice for sin), thus becoming the “bread of life” that came down from heaven (like manna). The key verse in that passage must be this one:

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

That refers to His sacrifice that gives eternal life to the world. We partake of that bread spiritually, when we believe in Him and obey His commandments, and receive the sacraments of His gospel. “Eating His flesh” is a hyperbole referring to partaking of that divine spiritual nourishment that the sacrifice of His flesh provides, contrasting it to the manna that Moses gave them in the wilderness. He was talking to a group of people that were carnal, and only understood nourishment in terms of eating something physically into your stomach, not as something to be received in the Spirit.

zerinus