The Case Against Transubstantiation

[MelanieAnne]

Because they didn’t know any better that the Book of Mormon is a fraudulent piece of writing with absolutely no critical manuscript evidence whatsoever and relying on “testimonies” of “witnesses” without anyone alive ever seeing the so-called “plates” we’re supposed to swallow.

I have read your Book of Mormon as published by your “church”, and it’s laughable.

What can you do or say to convince us otherwise?

Porthos, I’ll add to the reasons for not relying on these so-called scriptures ~ they were “translated” using “seer stones” (some call them “magic rocks”) peered at by Joseph Smith held at the bottom of a hat, who was behind a screen where even the scribe could not see him “translate”. The circumstances were, at best, bizarre. Even lifetime Mormons have trouble with this one, but it’s one of those things that they don’t talk about too much, just like they don’t talk about how Heavenly Father/God practices polygamy.

There are numerous examples of why the BOM is a fraud, some of them quite practical ones, such as the analysis someone once did of the weight of the “golden plates” that Joseph Smith claimed to carry effortlessly.

But the adherents of Mormonism are often very nice people, so while you may find the theology troubling, even laughable, please don’t be too harsh with them personally. They’ve been misled.

 

[zerinus]

There is one Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit that communicates with Christians. If there is a Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit that communicates with Mormons, it is a different entity from the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit that communicates with Christians.

Your statement “I think it is more likely to the other way” is unclear. But there is no lack of clarity in the nature of the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit that communicates with Christians. It is different from any Mormon one.

The true Holy Ghost is the one that bears witness to the truth of the Restoration of the gospel in the latter days, and of the Book of Mormon. Any spirit that bears not witness to that but speaks against it, is not of God, but is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning.

zerinus

 

[MelanieAnne]

The true Holy Ghost is the one that bears witness to the truth of the Restoration of the gospel in the latter days, and of the Book of Mormon. Any spirit that bears not witness to that but speaks against it, is not of God, but is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning.

zerinus

Incorrect. The One True Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit was the one who filled the Apostles at Pentecost, an event we will celebrate in a few weeks. The Apostles proceeded to establish what is now known as the Catholic Church and we were promised by the Lord that the Church would never fall. It hasn’t. Sinful humans have made many errors in connection with the Church, but Jesus promised the Church would withstand all attacks, and it has.

There has been no “restoration” because there was no “apostasy” to begin with. To say that there was an apostasy is to say that we cannot believe the promises of Jesus Christ.

I will agree with you that any other, different Holy Spirit is not of God. Indeed the Bible contains a specific scriptural warning against those who would preach “another Gospel”.

 

[zerinus]

The “authority” of a “church” that sprang into being in the 19th century?

No! The Church that was Restored from heaven in the 19th century, after the original one had apostatized.

I do not wish to sound unkind, but your church has no authority, is a cult, and exists only on the supposition that Jesus is a liar who cannot keep his promises.

Not true. Your church is Apostate, therefore it needed to be Restored.

Tell us, then. If the church and priesthood were restored in the 19th century, when did they first apostatize? Even an approximate year will do.

It looks like you had missed my thread on the Apostasy. You will find it here, in all its glory!

Also, why should we even believe you when you claim “authority” for the Book of Mormon, the Mormon “church,” and even the Bible? You claim no authority for yourself but for your church but why should we believe them either?

My authority is derived from the Church. I have no authority of myself. No one does. You believe them because the Holy Spirit testifies to us that it is true.

zerinus

 

[MelanieAnne]

My authority is derived from the Church. I have no authority of myself. No one does. You believe them because the Holy Spirit testifies to us that it is true.

zerinus

Something or someone may testify, but it is not the Holy Spirit of Christianity.

 

[zerinus]

Because they didn’t know any better that the Book of Mormon is a fraudulent piece of writing with absolutely no critical manuscript evidence whatsoever and relying on “testimonies” of “witnesses” without anyone alive ever seeing the so-called “plates” we’re supposed to swallow.

I have read your Book of Mormon as published by your “church”, and it’s laughable.

What can you do or say to convince us otherwise?

See my reply to MelanieAnne in post #322. That post applies equally to you.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

Incorrect. The One True Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit was the one who filled the Apostles at Pentecost, an event we will celebrate in a few weeks. The Apostles proceeded to establish what is now known as the Catholic Church and we were promised by the Lord that the Church would never fall. It hasn’t. Sinful humans have made many errors in connection with the Church, but Jesus promised the Church would withstand all attacks, and it has.

There has been no “restoration” because there was no “apostasy” to begin with. To say that there was an apostasy is to say that we cannot believe the promises of Jesus Christ.

I will agree with you that any other, different Holy Spirit is not of God. Indeed the Bible contains a specific scriptural warning against those who would preach “another Gospel”.

Then you missed my thread on the Apostasy too. See my previous post to porthos11.

zerinus

 

[MelanieAnne]

See my reply to MelanieAnne in post #322. That post applies equally to you.

zerinus

Doesn’t change the facts tho’. Still not the same Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit. Still not the church founded by Jesus Christ. Still no apostasy. Still no restoration. Still no valid book of scripture after the Bible. Still no other Gospel.

 

[zerinus]

Something or someone may testify, but it is not the Holy Spirit of Christianity.

Answer same as before: “The true Holy Ghost is the one that bears witness to the truth of the Restoration of the gospel in the latter days, and of the Book of Mormon. Any spirit that bears not witness to that but speaks against it, is not of God, but is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning.”

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

Doesn’t change the facts tho’. Still not the same Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit. Still not the church founded by Jesus Christ. Still no apostasy. Still no restoration. Still no valid book of scripture after the Bible. Still no other Gospel.

It is your word against mine.

zerinus

 

[MelanieAnne]

Then you missed my thread on the Apostasy too. See my previous post to porthos11.

zerinus

I didn’t miss it. There was no Apostasy.

It may be a nice story, but then so is “The Wizard of Oz”. But it’s just not true. Like so many other stories, it’s more along the lines of a fairy tale. Clinging to the fairy tale and repeating it endlessly doesn’t change the nature of the story. It’s still just a story, a useful fiction.

 

[zerinus]

I didn’t miss it. There was no Apostasy.

It may be a nice story, but then so is “The Wizard of Oz”. But it’s just not true. Like so many other stories, it’s more along the lines of a fairy tale. Clinging to the fairy tale and repeating it endlessly doesn’t change the nature of the story. It’s still just a story, a useful fiction.

That is your opinion. I have given valid reasons for my beleifs. They have not been refuted.

zerinus

 

[MelanieAnne]

Answer same as before: “The true Holy Ghost is the one that bears witness to the truth of the Restoration of the gospel in the latter days, and of the Book of Mormon. Any spirit that bears not witness to that but speaks against it, is not of God, but is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning.”

zerinus

Answer same as before. You are right that this “other” Holy Spirit is not of God. The problem for Mormons is that it is the “Holy Spirit” that “bears witness to the truth of the Restoration of the gospel in the latter days, and of the Book of Mormon” who is “the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning”. To assert otherwise is to find fault with Jesus Christ (explanation previously provided).

It’s a pickle that Joseph Smith got Mormons into, but luckily there’s a way out.

 

[zerinus]

Answer same as before. You are right that this “other” Holy Spirit is not of God. The problem for Mormons is that it is the “Holy Spirit” that “bears witness to the truth of the Restoration of the gospel in the latter days, and of the Book of Mormon” who is “the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning”. To assert otherwise is to find fault with Jesus Christ (explanation previously provided).

It’s a pickle that Joseph Smith got Mormons into, but luckily there’s a way out.

Your word against mine. Nothing further to add.

zerinus

 

[MelanieAnne]

Your word against mine. Nothing further to add.

zerinus

No, it’s your word against that of Jesus Christ. My word doesn’t matter. Neither does yours. But His word does.

It was Jesus who made the promise that the church would stand. And so it has But by asserting that there was an apostasy, for which there is absolutely no objective evidence, you are stating that Jesus Christ did not keep His promise.

To characterize it to be a simply matter of opinion between the two of us may serve your purposes, but it is inaccurate. You’re saying that your opinion trumps the word of Jesus Christ. Sorry pal, you fall short.

 

[zerinus]

No, it’s your word against that of Jesus Christ. My word doesn’t matter. Neither does yours. But His word does.

It was Jesus who made the promise that the church would stand. And so it has But by asserting that there was an apostasy, for which there is absolutely no objective evidence, you are stating that Jesus Christ did not keep His promise.

To characterize it to be a simply matter of opinion between the two of us may serve your purposes, but it is inaccurate. You’re saying that your opinion trumps the word of Jesus Christ. Sorry pal, you fall short.

Your words and opinions are not those of Jesus Christ. What we believe comes from Him.

zerinus.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Your words and opinions are not those of Jesus Christ. What we believe comes from Him.

zerinus.

It’s not my words I’m referring to, it’s His, the words of Jesus. It is His words that challenge yours, they are the ones that your apostasy story is in opposition to.

Jesus Christ founded the church presently known as the Catholic Church. It’s in the Bible. The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ, unlike the Mormon church which was founded by an ordinary person, Joseph Smith.

In founding the Church, Jesus Christ promised that the church would stand, that the “gates of hell would not prevail against it”. Your story of the apostasy says that Jesus broke His word and let the church fail.

But the Catholic church is still here. So Jesus kept his word. I’ll stick with Jesus. I trust Him. He keeps his promises. What we believe really does come from Jesus, it doesn’t come through Joseph Smith.

 

[zerinus]

It’s not my words I’m referring to, it’s His, the words of Jesus. It is His words that challenge yours, they are the ones that your apostasy story is in opposition to.

Jesus Christ founded the church presently known as the Catholic Church. It’s in the Bible. The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ, unlike the Mormon church which was founded by an ordinary person, Joseph Smith.

In founding the Church, Jesus Christ promised that the church would stand, that the “gates of hell would not prevail against it”. Your story of the apostasy says that Jesus broke His word and let the church fail.

But the Catholic church is still here. So Jesus kept his word. I’ll stick with Jesus. I trust Him. He keeps his promises. What we believe really does come from Jesus, it doesn’t come through Joseph Smith.

You are wasting your time—and mine. All has been answered before, in this as well as in the thread on the Apostasy. Futile conversation. I see no need to waste my time any further on this. Have a nice day.

zerinus

 

[MelanieAnne]

You are wasting your time—and mine. All has been answered before, in this as well as in the thread on the Apostasy. Futile conversation. I see no need to waste my time any further on this. Have a nice day.

zerinus

I’ll be happy to have a nice day!

Sorry you think the Word of God is a waste of your time tho’!

 

[porthos11]

No! The Church that was Restored from heaven in the 19th century, after the original one had apostatized.

Therefore making Jesus a liar and a poor foundation on which to build a Church.

Not true. Your church is Apostate, therefore it needed to be Restored.

When did this apostasy happen and with what event?

It looks like you had missed my thread on the Apostasy. You will find it here, in all its glory!

My authority is derived from the Church. I have no authority of myself. No one does. You believe them because the Holy Spirit testifies to us that it is true.

zerinus

Your church is a fraudulent cult that sprang from the delusions of one man. It has no authority because it’s based on the false premise that Jesus did not keep his promises. How lousy Jesus must have been to prevent his church from falling into apostasy for 1500 years or so.

I’ve seen your other thread, and it has not given one simple answer to a simple question:

When did the apostasy take place and with what event?

Besides, you don’t expect us to accept Mormon authority on your word do you? It’s not good enough for us to simply agree with your claims that your Church is authoritative, since you do not have history on your side.