The Case Against Transubstantiation

[qui_est_ce]

No, he said his flesh was SPIRITUAL food.

1 Corinthians 10:16 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

16Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?

Baptism with water is a symbol of our baptism with the Holy Spirit(Acts 1:5, 1 Peter 3:21)

Likewise, “food does not bring us closer to God.”(1 Corinthians 8:8)
“It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything else that will cause your brother to stumble.”(Romans 14:21)
It is symbolic!

?? Your reply using makes no sense at all. IF food is a stumbling block, don’t eat it. IOW, if you invite a vegetarian into your home, don’t serve roast beef. How does this answer my post?
"1 Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 10:16 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

16Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?

Baptism with water is a symbol of our baptism with the Holy Spirit(Acts 1:5, 1 Peter 3:21)

Yes, so what is the problem? We should be baptized, just as Jesus himself was baptized.

ccc:

Sacraments are outward signs of inward grace, instituted by Christ for our sanctification

 

[qui_est_ce]

Trusting Jesus is very easy and certainly no one would ever doubt transubstantiation if that’s what Jesus literally meant and taught. But HE states I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom. So are we going to drink blood in Heaven??

Jesus, in John’s gospel drank the wine offered him (the fourth cup) on the cross. Then he said, “It is finished.” The old is out, the new is in, that is the kingdom of God is on earth now, as of that point. (They kingdom come…on earth as it is in heaven).

Now here’s a question back. Since Jesus was such a man of HIS word have you chopped off your hand(s) yet?? Or have you gouged out your eye(s) yet?? Jesus said it is better to let the sinful parts go to hell than the entire body. Is this symbolic or literal??

Literal. Better to enter the kingdom with one hand than to go to Hell.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

z states that he has biblical support against transubstantiation. Has z given these biblical scriptures to argue against transubstantiation. The only thing I have found is his own fallible interpretatioin of twisting scriptures, that has nothing to do to refute transubstantiation.

If anything transubstantiation is supported by sacred scripture. Consider the first Adam who was made from dust and water mixed. It wasnt until God breathed his Word into the nostrils of the first Adam that the dust and water became a living human being. It is the Word of God that creates. So when you look at man you are looking at dust and water, for from dust you came to dust you shall return. The main point here is that God created what did not exist into existance by the Word of God. Transubstantiation says man comes from dust and water, and these substances is what makes up the man. But when God breathed into the first Adam he became a living being, thus when you see man you are seeing the transubstantiation of dust and water into a living flesh with the breathe of God that gives the flesh life.

Now the second Adam, Jesus the Word of God made flesh, was not created for Jesus is the begotten Son of God. Because the first Adam brought about death to humanity, the second Adam brings life to all those who partake of his life, which is his body,blood soul and divinity. How? Just do as he commands you. You must eat his flesh and drink his blood in order to have eternal life. Jesus gave up his body and blood in order that his new creation may regain what the first Adam lost, life eternal with God.

When Jesus himself instituted the Eucharist at the last supper during passover. The cup of blessing is mixed with wine symbolic of Jesus divinity, and water his humanity. Jesus speaks the word of God to these species and they transubstantiate into the body,blood,soul and divinity of our Lord himself. Jesus himself calls this the new and everlasting covenant. Now the fallen humanity of the first Adam created from dust and water, eats and drinks the transubstantiated bread and wine of the word of God made flesh. This is the new mix of creation. But inorder to have this new life in God, The dust and water (flesh) must consume the (Spirit in the) new and everlasting wine and bread(for it is the Spirit that gives life for the flesh is of no avail) transubstantiated into the body,blood,soul and divinity of Jesus. So when we eat this bread and drink the cup, we proclaim the death of our Lord until he comes.

That is why we are a new creation created in Christ Jesus by his body and blood sacrificed for the many. Those who are not of the Spirit of God are of the flesh. That is why the Words Jesus speaks are Spirit and life. It is by the Word of God himself at his command that the bread and wine are transubstantiated into the body,blood,soul and divinity of Jesus Christ." you must eat my body and drink my blood in order to have eternal life". Jesus took on the garment of humanity for us dipped it in wine, and washed his humanity vesture in the blood of grapes (see Genesis). What is the blood of grapes but the cup of blessing in his blood to which we partake of. there is much more on this, but I have to go now.

So it is very important that man obey God’s word to consume the body and blood of Jesus. The Roman Catholic church did not invent this doctrine. The Roman Catholic church was instructed by Jesus to do this in rememberance of him. And commanded to feed his flock. I dont understand in the first century the Roman Catholic church was persecuted for this hard teaching and accused of cannabalism which it is not, now 2000 years later, the Roman Catholic church is accused that she got it wrong? because Jesus did not mean to eat his body and drink his blood literally? The gates of hell will come against her just like Jesus foretold, but the gates of the netherworld will not prevail. and lo I AM with you always until the end of the age.

If your prejudices against the Roman Catholic church keep you from doing as Jesus commands your flesh. Dont take the Church’s word for it, Do it because Jesus commands your flesh to consume his body and blood so that you may have eternal life.

Peace of our Lord Jesus be with you

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

He said he meant spiritually to eat his body.
“For man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.”

Where in John 6 does Jesus say what you say He said?

Verse?

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

John 6:[27] Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of man will give to you; for on him has God the Father set his seal."

John 6:55 “For **my Flesh **is true food, and **my Blood **is true drink.”

John 6:[54] “he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

[56] **He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. **

What does Jesus mean when He says to “LABOR” for the food that leads to eternal life which He will give us?

What does Jesus mean when He says that His FLESH is true food and that whoever eats this food-eats His FLESH-will have eternal life?

I have still to get an acceptable explaination for these passages and these questions from John 6.

Nowhere in John 6 does the Lord say that he means to “spiritually eat His flesh”.

And nowhere in John 6 does it say that His flesh is of no avail.

If God, who made the cosmos and everything within it by a single word, how is it so great a feat for Him to change the substance of bread and wine into His Body and Blood?

If He is our pashal Lamb, and if to be a good Jew under the Old Covenant meant to eat of the Lamb, and if the Old Covenant was “a shadow of the good things to come”(Heb 10:1), and if Christ was sent NOT to abolish the Law but to fulfill it(Mat 5:17), then how can we, as children of Abraham and the Israel of the New Covenant(Gal 6:16), how can we not eat, by His command, of the Lamb that gave HImself upon the altar of the cross?!

 

[Ronald_E]

John 6:[27] Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of man will give to you; for on him has God the Father set his seal."

John 6:55 “For **my Flesh **is true food, and **my Blood **is true drink.”

John 6:[54] “he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

[56] **He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. **

What does Jesus mean when He says to “LABOR” for the food that leads to eternal life which He will give us?

What does Jesus mean when He says that His FLESH is true food and that whoever eats this food-eats His FLESH-will have eternal life?

I have still to get an acceptable explaination for these passages and these questions from John 6.

Nowhere in John 6 does the Lord say that he means to “spiritually eat His flesh”.

And nowhere in John 6 does it say that His flesh is of no avail.

If God, who made the cosmos and everything within it by a single word, how is it so great a feat for Him to change the substance of bread and wine into His Body and Blood?

If He is our pashal Lamb, and if to be a good Jew under the Old Covenant meant to eat of the Lamb, and if the Old Covenant was “a shadow of the good things to come”(Heb 10:1), and if Christ was sent NOT to abolish the Law but to fulfill it(Mat 5:17), then how can we, as children of Abraham and the Israel of the New Covenant(Gal 6:16), how can we not eat, by His command, of the Lamb that gave HImself upon the altar of the cross?!

I agree with every thing you have said. I think it means that everything He said must be understood in the Spirit and not in the flesh. The flesh was created on the 6th day with the animals. We must move to The Lord’s Day which is beyond the flesh and appearance. Everything is not as it appears to be. If anyone has a superficial idea of quantum physics they will know what I mean.
The idea of The Word being made flesh. Jesus is God but He looks human. The bread looks like bread but The Word makes the bread Jesus.
All I can say is one cannot understand this without Grace and being oppositional through the flesh.

 

[thecoach]

I agree 100%. I just don’t see why Protestants jump all over the Catholics for choosing to adopt a LITERAL understanding of a NT passage. Who does it hurt by them believing it that way?

The words are the same, its all in how one interprets them, right?

It is just interesting that in many interpretations of Scripture, Catholics are sure not to use literal. Genesis is an example, as well as Jesus’ command to put your eye out if it causes you to sin (as a priest once told me, He couldnt possibly mean that literally), yet they choose to interpret this literally.

 

[MelanieAnne]

It is just interesting that in many interpretations of Scripture, Catholics are sure not to use literal. Genesis is an example, as well as Jesus’ command to put your eye out if it causes you to sin (as a priest once told me, He couldnt possibly mean that literally), yet they choose to interpret this literally.

Jesus was pretty clear on this one, that’s for sure.

 

[MementoMori3283]

(as a priest once told me, He couldnt possibly mean that literally), yet they choose to interpret this literally.

A Baptist minister once told me that I was going to hell :tsktsk:

 

[MementoMori3283]

Jesus’ command to put your eye out if it causes you to sin yet they choose to interpret this literally.

what is the problem with interpreting this literally?

It is better for you, if you are weak and can not turn your eyes from sin, to pluck them out and stop the sinning.

However, if you are too weak to cut the hand off that steals from the poor, Jesus has provided for you the Sacrament of Reconciliation, whereby Christ, through the priest, will forgive your sins and provide grace to overcome. After you receive this great gift, you can then receive the greatest Gift the world hase ever seen. The Eucharist. John 3:16

I’m not saying that it would be some great sign of strength for you to cut out your tongue because you couldn’t stop cursing God, only that, literally, it would be better.

Listen back to the words God said unto Cain:

But to Cain and to his offering He did not turn, and it annoyed Cain exceedingly, and his countenance fell.

And the Lord said to Cain, "Why are you annoyed, and why has your countenance fallen?

Is it not so that if you improve, it will be forgiven you?

If you do not improve, however, at the entrance, sin is lying, and to you is its longing, but you can rule over it."

Bereishit 4:5-7

 

[qui_est_ce]

It is just interesting that in many interpretations of Scripture, Catholics are sure not to use literal. Genesis is an example, as well as Jesus’ command to put your eye out if it causes you to sin (as a priest once told me, He couldnt possibly mean that literally), yet they choose to interpret this literally.

Tha Catholic Church has no infallible teaching on Genesis or the verse about putting out your eye. The only literal teaching from Genesis is that we have to believe that God created Adam and Eve and they were our first parents. Catholics are free to interpret Scripture within the framework of Catholic Teaching, which is based on what the Apostles taught and practiced. The priest told you his opinion, which is valid. Since Jesus repeated 7 times to eat his body and drink his blood, and then at the Last Supper showed us HOW do it, this is defined Doctrine. In addition the Apostles and Paul tell us that they followed this practice. The passage about the eye is only found in one Gospel, that of Mark. The Heavenly food, interestingly is found only in John. But HOW to do it is found only in Mathew, Mark, and Luke. Could it be that John felt he had emphasized it enough in ch 6?

Catholics follow the interpret the Bible literally. What Catholics don’t do is base their entire belief system on one verse taken out of context. When a Teaching is repeated several times, and practiced by Jesus himself, such as Baptism and Eucharist, you gotta believe it must be pretty important.

Therefore, pluck out your eye if it causes you to sin mortally, which is separation from God. I would.

 

[zerinus]

It is not the definition of transubstantiation and you know it.

I know you know there is a difference between transubstantiation and Real Presence. You also have been told THE definition of Transubstantiation. The fact you are holding on to this ‘strawman’ tells me that you are dishonest.
You were not mistaken when you used a condemnation of consubstantiation as your definition of transubstantiation; you knowingly lied to your readers.

I have now rewritten my Blog post, and incorporated the passage you wanted into it. In fact, I have taken all the quotes from the Trent from the website you had given, and added more material to it, both from the chapters as well as from the canons, to give a more comprehensive look at the teaching of Trent. Take a look, and tell me what you think:

zerinus.blogspot.com/2008/04/transubstantiation-vs-real-presence.html

zerinus

 

[HashemEchad]

A Baptist minister once told me that I was going to hell :tsktsk:

I’ve had Christians (yes, even a few Catholics) tell me I’m going to hell, too. Gee, it seems (most) Catholics and Jews have a lot in common, eh?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I’ve had Christians (yes, even a few Catholics) tell me I’m going to hell, too. Gee, it seems (most) Catholics and Jews have a lot in common, eh?

Either way you look at it, if you or I end up in hell or heaven, it will sure convince one that he truly exists. You willing to wait until then to find out?

 

[AlegreFe]

Use a work of fiction to mimic Christ’s words and change their meaning. Got it. Thanks

That is almost the same as what I did in my post here. I tried to make him (zerinus) see that he is changing words and meaning in scripture to suit his own opinions and beliefs. It might not be what he would write down but it seems to be what he “sees” (understands to be) in scripture. I have not finished going through the rest of the pages but so far he has not replied to my post.

 

[AlegreFe]

One thing to look at is, if it really is Christ, why does it do so little to change the hearts of those who receive it? Parishes are cold places, priests receive then defile themselves, really folks

The Sanctifying Grace that comes from receiving Jesus in the Eucharist is received according to the mode of the receiver. If you know who you are receiving and you receive worthily then the graces will pour into your heart & soul and a transformation will take place. It might not be an overnight transformation for some but it will happen.

There are some Catholics who don’t even know what the Mass really means. There are some Catholics who only go to Mass for weddings and/or funerals. I have known some Catholics like that and they haven’t gone to Confession in years and yet they go to receive Holy Communion. That’s a shame!

Parishes are not cold places. It could be that some people just like to keep to themselves. When a Catholic person goes to Mass he/she goes there to thank God, glorify God, worship God by offering up his/her sacrifices, sufferings, joys and good works. He/she goes to Mass to assist in the offering up of the body, blood, soul & divinity of Jesus to God the Father so as to bring down graces, mainly Sanctifying Grace for those who will receive Jesus, providing that they are in a state of grace, no mortal sin on their soul. When we offer up our own sacrifices we unite those sacrifices with the passion of Jesus Christ. There are also graces received by people who cannot partake because either they have not gone to Confession or they missed the requirements of fasting before receiving Jesus in the Eucharist, but it is not Sanctifying Grace. That only comes from going to Confession and receiving Jesus in Holy Communion.

I explained all of that to try to show you that we do not go to Mass to meet and mingle with friends. Our main reason for going to Mass is for God, not for ourselves and not to pacify our own “feelings” of wanting to be with people. I don’t go to Mass to “get a blessing” either (although that happens), I go to give thanks and praise to God, Amen!

If I have a true disposition for receiving Jesus, and then receive Him, then I have no need to want to mingle with people after Mass. I am completely satisfied and I am completely at peace. That is not to say that I might not approach someone that I know or that if someone comes up to me and starts a conversation I’ll walk away and ignore him/her. No way! On the contrary, if someone approaches me to say hi, then I’ll talk to that person. But if no one approaches me, I’m not going to cry about it and say, “oh my goodness, these people are cold!” I wouldn’t dream of saying that and I’ll never feel unwanted.

Another thing about what you said, “parishes are cold places,” friendliness and fellowship should start with you. There are also plenty of opportunities for fellowship. There are activities, outside of the Mass, going on in Parishes all the time. You just have to look for them. The celebration of the Mass is not for fellowship (we are not protestants & we have no “worship services” we have the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass because Jesus commanded it to happen).

What you say about priests is only partially true. Not ALL priests receive then defile themselves. It is only a very small percentage if you’re talking about the abuses. But I know that even that small percentage is too much and that is why we need to pray for Priests. Please clarify if you didn’t mean ALL priests.

 

[AlegreFe]

I’ve had Christians (yes, even a few Catholics) tell me I’m going to hell, too. Gee, it seems (most) Catholics and Jews have a lot in common, eh?

If some Catholics told you that you are going to hell then those Catholics have no idea what the Catholic Church says about Jews and Muslims.

A true staunch devout Catholic cannot tell anyone that they are going to hell.

 

[AlegreFe]

thecoach:

One thing to look at is, if it really is Christ, why does it do so little to change the hearts of those who receive it? Parishes are cold places, priests receive then defile themselves, really folks

If you have suffered in your life, and are unhappy as a result, then that is truly unfortunate and very saddening.

That is not what you should say to a Catholic person who has suffered. I’m not saying to be “cold” to that person who has suffered. But we need to tell these people who have suffered that God makes good out of bad. God has a purpose for your suffering. You should rejoice in your suffering because suffering is redemptive if united to Christ on the Cross. I know it is easier said than done but suffering is good if you look at it from Paul’s point of view.
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church, (Col 1:24)
I believe it is sad for people to suffer but I don’t want my saddness to be contagious. So why should I even be sad at all. It is hard seeing all the suffering that goes on in the world but if I let my sensitivity take over I will surely die. Instead I would like to rejoice as Paul rejoiced in his sufferings. I am super sensitive so I would rather be happy (hence my name here translated into English, “HappyFaith”). And knowing that the Catholic Church teaches about suffering is very comforting to me.

And if you (thecoach) have suffered then I am truly sorry. :console: I will pray for you. I will say a Rosary for you. I will offer up a Mass for you and I will place you in the Immaculate Heart of Mary. But most importantly I would like to tell you to offer up your sufferings to Jesus, preferably through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I have been a catholic all my life and never heard any catholic saying anyone would go to hell.

suffering is a good thing. just look at the Bible what do we see? sufferings everywhere. in the modern world we are learning that suffering is a bad thing, poverty is a bad thing and so forth.

we need to be carefull in this world today to teachings that are contrary to the Word of God.

I am suffering very much lately because i have been reading what is going with the CC. everywhere the CC is being attacked by not only the insiders but also by outsiders. i just read articles from Brasil how protestants and atheists are in campaign to desmantle the CC. with false accusations and plans to remove catholics from, as they call, the roman church.

I am worried about the sufferings of our Church today. Please pray for the Church of Jesus that the promise of Christ be acomplished that the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

 

[Stephen168]

I have now rewritten my Blog post, … Take a look, and tell me what you think:

zerinus' blog:

Firstly, Real Presence is understood differently in different churches; but as defined in Catholicism, Real Presence is no more biblical than is Transubstantiation. The way in which Real Presence is understood in the Catholic Church is far from being scripturally provable.

making categorical assertions doesn’t really mean anything unless you can back it up with sound arguments.

A sound argument
zerinus' blog:

Secondly, in Catholic theology Real Presence and Transubstantiation are so intricately intertwined that it is not possible to separate them. Real Presence takes place by means of Transubstantiation, so that to all intents and purposes one could say they are the same.

That makes sense the same way this makes sense:
An oak tree and photosynthesis are so intricately intertwined that it is not possible to separate them. The oak tree happens by means of photosynthesis, so that to all intents and purposes one could say they are the same.