The Case of the Curious Orthodox in Rome

[Zabdi_Premjit]

Hi,

I’m going to a local Roman Catholic mass by my school on Tuesday. (God willing.) I’ve always been curious about it. (I suppose it’s the “Religious Studies” part of me. ) However, as an Eastern Orthodox Christian, I am am only familiar with the Byzantine-rite. I realise a lot the regulars on this forum are at least somewhat familiar with both the Latin-rite and Byzantine-rite, so I’d appreciate any information you can give me on the following:

1. 
   *]What Byzantine customs can I expect to not see?
   *]What unique Latin customs should I be aware of?
   *]How should I dress? (The Mass in being held by the CCM, so assume it should be fairly casual, correct?)
   *]What is the proper respectful conduct that is observed in a Latin-rite Mass?
   
   Thank you for your help! I appreciate it.
   
   -Athanasios

 

[malphono]

To an extent, the answer depends on whether the Roman Mass you’re going to attend is the traditional Roman Mass (aka EF – Extraordinary Form – in Latin, according to the 1962 ) or if it the OF (aka Ordinary Form or “Novus Ordo” – in the vernacular and according to the post-conciliar books).

BTW, what is “CCM”?

 

[Zabdi_Premjit]

To an extent, the answer depends on whether the Roman Mass you’re going to attend is the traditional Roman Mass (aka EF – Extraordinary Form – in Latin, according to the 1962 ) or if it the OF (aka Ordinary Form or “Novus Ordo” – in the vernacular and according to the post-conciliar books).

BTW, what is “CCM”?

Malphono,

“CCM” is short for “Catholic Campus Ministries”. It a university Catholic student organisation. Since the Mass is mostly being held for the students at my university, I assume it’s probably the OF Mass.

-Athanasios

 

[malphono]

Got it.

From what I know of the Latin Rite OF (I don’t particularly care for it and do not voluntarily attend it), I’ll only comment on attire: dress as you would for any service. Casual is fine, but I’d suggest not going barefoot or wearing muscle-shirt and ragged cut-offs.

Liturgically, one thing you might find sort of familiar are the “intercessions”. Since it’s the OF, for anything more I’ll defer to someone who is better versed.

 

[Aramis]

Big things:

• * celebrant may be facing you during consecration. Probably will, but it’s priest’s choice.
  • No iconostas, and likely statuary rather than icons (tho’ a few do have icons); the sanctuary is the raised dais if there is no rail; or inside the rail if present.
  • no tetrapod.
  • Tabernacle may be * on high altar* On main altar* on side altar* in separate chapel
  • unleavened bread, Precious Body distributed separately from the Precious blood most of the time.
  • lay ministers used for distribution of communion
  • lots of kneeling if the rubrics are followed
  • sign of the cross made Head-belly-right-left
  • entry prayer tasks different; cross oneself with holy water upon entry to nave, proceed to pew, and if tabernacle in view, genuflect rather than bow. Kneel in prayer for preparatory personal prayers.
  • In some parishes, in the narthex a table will be set up with one to three bowls, a patten or ciborium, and a spoon. In the bowls are hosts, the pieces of unleavened bread. Each person intending to commune transfers one host from a bowl to the patten/ciborium before entry to the nave.
  • Text of liturgy may be chanted or spoken, or sung melodically. Celebrant’s choice.
  • lots of choice-points for celebrant. Penitential rite, which eucharistic prayer, which affirmation of the faith.* Entrance song my be a hymn, or a spoken or chanted proper. * Recessional and communion hymns may be sung or omitted, or even spoken.
  • creed options. May be Nicene-constantinopolitan plus filioque, may be apostle’s creed, may be baptismal promises (if a baptism, confirmation, or certain other conditions), may be omitted entirely on weekdays
  • Penitential Rite: Confeitor (I confess to almighty God…) or Kyrie or Lord have mercy
  • Eucharistic Prayer: 4 “ordinary” EP’s, and about 8 optional ones for special uses.
  • While the lection may be chanted, it’s rare that it is done so. Daily mass might be old testament or epistle reading. Sundays usually one each* Offeratory: may be collection, may just be the gifts being brought forward, or might be ommitted. May have a hymn.
  • no troparion or kontakion equivalent; the prokeimenon equivalent is longer, 3-7 verses, may be sung or spoken, antiphonal lector/cantor and congregation.
    Remaining propers are usually priestly; Opening prayer and Preface to the Eucharistic prayer.
  • Epiclesis precedes institution narative, rather than follows it, and may not be explicit.
  • No proskemedia; the gifts are prepared during the mass, at least normally
  • No antedorion.
  • one ektenie, sometimes two. Prayer of the faithful may have scripted or improvised content, may be lead by cleric or lector, or even by the faithful spontaneously. The confeitor options include a very short ektenie form option for both the Kyrie and the Lord have mercy options.
  • No “prayer before communion” (O’ Lord, I believe and profess…)
  Dress code varies, but generally, neat and clean as a minimum. Shirt with collar normative, tie optional. long trousers, or kilt & hose, for men. Skirt or long trousers for women. In extremely hot climes, some parishes and bishops openly permit shorts.
  
  For staunchly traditionalist parishes, especially EF parishes, sunday is suit, daily is at least shirt, slacks and tie.
  
  If you are a cleric, minor or major, or a monastic, you should wear your cassock/riassa/exorassion, even as a visiting orthodox. Per the rubrics, major clerics (Deacons, Priests, Bishops) should be in choir dress or vested, even when not part of the liturgy. Most orthodox clerics I’ve seen in attendence wear their riassa/exorassion, and their kamalavka.

 

[Zabdi_Premjit]

Big things:

• * celebrant may be facing you during consecration. Probably will, but it’s priest’s choice.
  • No iconostas, and likely statuary rather than icons (tho’ a few do have icons); the sanctuary is the raised dais if there is no rail; or inside the rail if present.
  • no tetrapod.
  • Tabernacle may be * on high altar* On main altar* on side altar* in separate chapel
  • unleavened bread, Precious Body distributed separately from the Precious blood most of the time.
  • lay ministers used for distribution of communion
  • lots of kneeling if the rubrics are followed
  • sign of the cross made Head-belly-right-left
  • entry prayer tasks different; cross oneself with holy water upon entry to nave, proceed to pew, and if tabernacle in view, genuflect rather than bow. Kneel in prayer for preparatory personal prayers.
  • In some parishes, in the narthex a table will be set up with one to three bowls, a patten or ciborium, and a spoon. In the bowls are hosts, the pieces of unleavened bread. Each person intending to commune transfers one host from a bowl to the patten/ciborium before entry to the nave.
  • Text of liturgy may be chanted or spoken, or sung melodically. Celebrant’s choice.
  • lots of choice-points for celebrant. Penitential rite, which eucharistic prayer, which affirmation of the faith.* Entrance song my be a hymn, or a spoken or chanted proper. * Recessional and communion hymns may be sung or omitted, or even spoken.
  • creed options. May be Nicene-constantinopolitan plus filioque, may be apostle’s creed, may be baptismal promises (if a baptism, confirmation, or certain other conditions), may be omitted entirely on weekdays
  • Penitential Rite: Confeitor (I confess to almighty God…) or Kyrie or Lord have mercy
  • Eucharistic Prayer: 4 “ordinary” EP’s, and about 8 optional ones for special uses.
  • While the lection may be chanted, it’s rare that it is done so. Daily mass might be old testament or epistle reading. Sundays usually one each* Offeratory: may be collection, may just be the gifts being brought forward, or might be ommitted. May have a hymn.
  • no troparion or kontakion equivalent; the prokeimenon equivalent is longer, 3-7 verses, may be sung or spoken, antiphonal lector/cantor and congregation.
    Remaining propers are usually priestly; Opening prayer and Preface to the Eucharistic prayer.
  • Epiclesis precedes institution narative, rather than follows it, and may not be explicit.
  • No proskemedia; the gifts are prepared during the mass, at least normally
  • No antedorion.
  • one ektenie, sometimes two. Prayer of the faithful may have scripted or improvised content, may be lead by cleric or lector, or even by the faithful spontaneously. The confeitor options include a very short ektenie form option for both the Kyrie and the Lord have mercy options.
  • No “prayer before communion” (O’ Lord, I believe and profess…)
  Dress code varies, but generally, neat and clean as a minimum. Shirt with collar normative, tie optional. long trousers, or kilt & hose, for men. Skirt or long trousers for women. In extremely hot climes, some parishes and bishops openly permit shorts.
  
  For staunchly traditionalist parishes, especially EF parishes, sunday is suit, daily is at least shirt, slacks and tie.
  
  If you are a cleric, minor or major, or a monastic, you should wear your cassock/riassa/exorassion, even as a visiting orthodox. Per the rubrics, major clerics (Deacons, Priests, Bishops) should be in choir dress or vested, even when not part of the liturgy. Most orthodox clerics I’ve seen in attendence wear their riassa/exorassion, and their kamalavka.

• 1. Do they venerate the statues?
  2. What’s called the tetrapod?
  3. How do you “cross oneself with holy water”?
  4. How much sitting vs. standing is there generally?

 

[mardukm]

*] entry prayer tasks different; cross oneself with holy water upon entry to nave, proceed to pew, and if tabernacle in view, genuflect rather than bow. Kneel in prayer for preparatory personal prayers.

You know, I’ve been to several Latin Masses, and I never made such a conscious distinction. I’ve always simply bowed, as I was told that gives proper respect for the altar. But now that I think about it, I do recall people bow to the altar, and then genuflect towards the tarbernacle, wherever that happens to be.

Blessings

 

[Zabdi_Premjit]

You know, I’ve been to several Latin Masses, and I never made such a conscious distinction. I’ve always simply bowed, as I was told that gives proper respect for the altar. But now that I think about it, I do recall people bow to the altar, and then genuflect towards the tarbernacle, wherever that happens to be.

Blessings

So if I cross myself and bow to the altar I won’t look out of place?

 

[Aramis]

1. Do they venerate the statues?
2. What’s called the tetrapod?
3. How do you “cross oneself with holy water”?
4. How much sitting vs. standing is there generally?

Tetrapod: byzantine rite - table in nave with icon of day and (usually) cross.

Also, there are no candlestands for the people’s candles in the nave in many parishes; often they are in a side area; sometimes they are in the chapel of reservation (when the tablernacle is in a separate chapel, the tables of special intention candles are often placed in that chapel). Also, the candles will usually be tea-light sized, not tapers, and are in glass cups upon a table, which said table often is also the strongbox.

9: dip fingers in holy water, make sign of the cross.

19: from memory
Entry: Stand.
Opening prayer stand
penitential rite: stand
Lection: Sit
Gospel: stand
Homily: sit
offeratory: sit
Start of EP: Stand
End of EP: kneel
Communion Stand until reception; stand, sit, or kneel (traditionally kneel) until all have received
post communion reflection/prayer: sit
Closing Prayers: Stand.
Recessional stand.

Oh, and one other little thing: the crossing of oneself as the gospel is announced: Romans make three small crosses using their thumb, while praying silently: once each Forehead (May the lord be on my mind…) lips (on my lips…) and chest (and in my heart…). The priest or deacon does this while saying “May the Lord be on my mind, on my lips, and in my heart, that I may worthily proclaim the Holy Gospel.”

Marduk:
If the main altar and the tabernacle are in the same line, just genuflect.
If they are visibly separated, genuflect to the tabernacle. Bowing to the Altar is optional outside of mass, unless one is in the sanctuary. During the mass, genuflection when one approaches the tabernacle, bow when one crosses in front of the celebrant or the altar.
If the Tabernacle is in a separate chapel, just bow.

So I was taught by the Dominican Friars who did my religious education when I was in elementary school.

 

[mlouise007]

Hi Athanasios-

“CCM” is short for “Catholic Campus Ministries”. It a university Catholic student organisation. Since the Mass is mostly being held for the students at my university, I assume it’s probably the OF Mass.
-Athanasios

I agree, that is quite likely the form. Aramis has given you a good amount of detail. If they are meeting in a chapel it’s likely to be more informal but as s/he says some of the details really depend on many things. What the worship space is may have an affect (church building, or a small campus chapel, or a meeting room that is weekly converted for a Mass, pews with kneelers or just folding chairs), the “culture” of that group-- the priest and the faithful attending-- what affect will happens. Here is a little Walk Through the Mass.

I’d encourage you to call or email whatever contacts they list. Let them know who you are and that you’re planning this visit. I would hope and expect they’ll be delighted that you’re coming. Then hopefully on Tu when you come they can partner you with someone who could help you find your place for following in the missal, if they have one, or any other worship aid, if they have one, and just be there as a support during the Mass. If you’re able to make contact with someone before Tuesday they can answer the specifics for this community. Calling/emailing ahead is something I frequently do and it’s always be helpful to me.

You only asked about the Mass but you’d probably want to know if they’re having any sort of agape/potluck meal afterward you could also stay for.

(I’ve visited the Tues. night Divine Liturgy locally of the Orthodox equivalent of this ministry for college/university age Orthodox. The Orthodox college kids were quite informal in attire. I’m your mom’s age so I was less informal LOL, but still not formal. They had a potluck and a talk afterwards. It was wonderful.)

Reading through what Aramis wrote I’d add a couple things, and i may have just missed them in that post. A candle or oil lamp next to the Tabernacle would help you locate where it is and RCs would reverence that with a bow usually, much as you would anytime you cross in front of the Holy Doors in your church. There may be some holy icons in the chapel or church but RCs do not generally venerate these (but might if from a culture that does.) There wouldn’t likely be any candles to put near the icons, if they do have them.

There are two times, after they’re blessed themselves with Holy water when entering, when people will likely cross themselves again during Mass- at the beginning of the Mass when the priest will call to worship “In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” and at the end of Mass again when he will invoke the Blessed Trinity. People may cross themselves at other times, but maybe not. Mary could be referred to by a number of titles but Theotokos is unlikely to be one of them Probably the Kyrie, if said in Greek, is the only Greek you’ll hear.

The music for any hymns is more likely to be contemporary hymns than chant in a college setting, but it is possible it could be chant. I wouldn’t expect there to be an incense.

They may hold hands during praying of the Our Father. There is a “sharing of the peace of the Lord” following that prayer when people may hug, or shake hands, or just nod.

It’s possible if for some reason there is a large group, some of the lay faithful might assist the priest in distributing communion. There is no equivalent in the RC Mass to the distribution of the antidoron/blessed bread. It would be highly unusual for them to be using something resembling bread for Eucharist. I won’t get into whether you would choose to receive communion. Know that if you approach the priest with your arms crossed over you chest he will assume you are coming up for a blessing and would give you a blessings and no Eucharist.

Gordon Atkinson, a Baptist pastor, recently wrote four wonderful reflections about his visits to two Orthodox churches, a very new and sometimes confusing experience for him. At one point he wrote “So if you are visiting, it is best to be humble and always think the best of what you see.” I try to remember this in my own parish as well.

Again, I would call ahead and get a heads up about the level of formality for this group, and whether they’ll have a meal together afterwards. I hope they do have a meal. It would be great to spend that time with them. I pray it will be a joyful experience for you and that you’ll make some friendships with the your fellow college students who are RC. It is entirely possible they could have others there who aren’t Catholic, including some Catechumens.

Apologies again if I’m repeating something Aramis already clarified.

-Marylouise

 

[mardukm]

So if I cross myself and bow to the altar I won’t look out of place?

Yes, you won’t look out of place at all. In fact, I have also noticed Latins simply bow, not bothering to genuflect towards the tabernacle (but maybe that is because they don’t know where the tabernacle is). In any case, it is a totally normal posture (just the bow) when one goes to the pew.

I heard this joke from a conservative Latin once (not a traditionalist) - he exclaimed “where have they put my Lord?” the same reaction of Christ’s followers after the resurrection ----- well, it was funny when I heard it. You had to be there.

Blessings

P.S. I just noticed brother Aramis gave a further explanation of that rubric. He obviously has more experience than me on the matter.

 

[Patchunky]

Malphono,

“CCM” is short for “Catholic Campus Ministries”. It a university Catholic student organisation. Since the Mass is mostly being held for the students at my university, I assume it’s probably the OF Mass

It’s also short for CONFRATERNITY OF CHRISTIAN MOTHERS of which, my Slovak Baba was a proud member and would proudly march into church when they had their monthly Mass. I can still hear them chanting the Rosary before Mass… Svaty Maria, Matka Bozha…:byzsoc:

 

[mlouise007]

Hi Athanasios-

(I’ve visited the Tues. night Divine Liturgy locally of the Orthodox equivalent of this ministry for college/university age Orthodox. The Orthodox college kids were quite informal in attire. I’m your mom’s age so I was less informal LOL, but still not formal. They had a potluck and a talk afterwards. It was wonderful.)

I just re read what you wrote " It a university Catholic student organisation. Since the Mass is mostly being held for the students at my university, I assume it’s probably the OF Mass."

And so now i realize if you’re faculty etc. and not a student then I’m maybe not quite your mom’s age.

 

[Aramis]

The “hiding” of the tabernacle is a problem.

Also, it is possible that there is no reserved Eucharist, especially if the chapel is multi-use. In which case, again, bow to the altar.

Also, if the Tabernacle lamp is extinguished, it means there is no Reserved Eucharist present.

As to when to cross yourself: follow the byzantine rule… whenever you are being blessed, whenever the trinity is mentioned… and you won’t be out of place.

If you receive communion, one makes a sign of reverence before approaching, usually a metanoia (bow and cross oneself), and say amen in response to the statement “The Body of Christ”. Most then make the sign of the cross afterwords. Do NOT cross your arms over your chest if you intend to receive… in many places that is the indicator of approaching for a blessing. Instead, simply fold the hands in prayer. And you are permitted by Catholic Canon Law to receive, if you are not prohibited from so doing by your home jurisdiction.

 

[mlouise007]

I heard this joke from a conservative Latin once (not a traditionalist) - he exclaimed “where have they put my Lord?” the same reaction of Christ’s followers after the resurrection ----- well, it was funny when I heard it. You had to be there.

I’ve heard this from Fr. Mitch Pacwa, a priest I love to listen to on Catholic TV and radio. He likes to quote Mary Magdalen when referencing tabernacles that have been moved to side chapels etc. : “…they have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid him.” (Fr. Mitch happens to be bi-ritual in the Maronite Eastern Catholic Church.) He says it with a touch of both humor and angst.

-Marylouise

 

[Hesychios]

So if I cross myself and bow to the altar I won’t look out of place?

You would be setting an excellent example alas, if the tabernacle has been moved and the altar end of the building is not true east…

I don’t know about the Orthodox parish you are from (whether it has pews or chairs or most people stand) but you may find the pews constraining. It can give one a “boxed in” feeling.

The veneration at statues is most likely only taking place between liturgies, some people stop after Mass on their way out. If you experience matches mine most of the Mass participants will walk by without acknowledging the saints around them. Very few would actually touch or kiss a statue as they do not share the theology of icons which easterners usually have. Consequently these statues (if they are present) may be so finely worked or delicate that they would not take a lot of scuffing and handling, or perhaps will be set up in a way that is unreachable with the candle stand in front.

You would be welcome to partake in the Holy Eucharist, if you are otherwise properly disposed, but you must have the blessing of you local Orthodox priest beforehand. Otherwise I would just play it safe and stand back.

There will be kneeling during the consecration and at other points, which you as Orthodox are not supposed to do on a Sunday, but this being a Tuesday it will be OK.

 

[mlouise007]

As to when to cross yourself: follow the byzantine rule… whenever you are being blessed, whenever the trinity is mentioned… and you won’t be out of place.

I would definitely agree with Aramis about this.

As RCs there are those few specific places where we are to cross ourselves, but in many cultures RCs cross at various other times also, as has been said. I hope you will try to do what feels right and respectful for you as the Orthodox Christian you are, so that you are as unselfconscious as possible and can as much as possible submerge yourself in the liturgy. If you bring your authentic Orthodox self, as I’m sure you will, then you cannot be out of place in our Lord’s house.

I used to look around me in the Divine Liturgy when I first began going to one, to see what to do. As I got to know people I found out that most of the time the majority of the other faithful there were RCs like me and we were looking at each other … well you maybe get the picture. I switched over to keeping an eye on the choir which I found was safer.

I tell that because the same thing can happen in a Mass where you might be surrounded by people who don’t know the rubrics anyway, or might know them but choose to not follow them, or the bishop has dispensed something, etc… As I said before I do encourage you to try to make contact ahead of time, or if you can’t contact them before Tues then arrive early enough to introduce yourself to the priest and some of the others attending and ask for “help”, as needed. It could be that there will be a very small group of people coming to the Mass. “Religious Studies” is a component of your visit but hopefully your main focus once there is to be drawn into union with our Lord with your brothers and sisters in the Christ.

 

[Zabdi_Premjit]

You would be setting an excellent example alas, if the tabernacle has been moved and the altar end of the building is not true east…

I don’t know about the Orthodox parish you are from (whether it has pews or chairs or most people stand) but you may find the pews constraining. It can give one a “boxed in” feeling.

Yes, we stand, which I love, as it keeps me attentive and awake. (Cushioned pews plus a usually sleep-deprived Athanasios is not always a good combination. )

The veneration at statues is most likely only taking place between liturgies, some people stop after Mass on their way out. If you experience matches mine most of the Mass participants will walk by without acknowledging the saints around them. Very few would actually touch or kiss a statue as they do not share the theology of icons which easterners usually have. Consequently these statues (if they are present) may be so finely worked or delicate that they would not take a lot of scuffing and handling, or perhaps will be set up in a way that is unreachable with the candle stand in front.

Do you think it’d be it’d look terribly odd if I venerated them? It’s hard to see a icon/figure of a saint and not want to venerate!

You would be welcome to partake in the Holy Eucharist, if you are otherwise properly disposed, but you must have the blessing of you local Orthodox priest beforehand. Otherwise I would just play it safe and stand back.

Yes, I’m content to observe.

There will be kneeling during the consecration and at other points, which you as Orthodox are not supposed to do on a Sunday, but this being a Tuesday it will be OK.

Yes, I have knelt in a Liturgy before, when I visited a Greek Orthodox church with my university’s OCF. All us non-Greeks got confused and took a second to realise what was going on when everyone started kneeling. I suppose we’re a little slow.

 

[Zabdi_Premjit]

I just re read what you wrote " It a university Catholic student organisation. Since the Mass is mostly being held for the students at my university, I assume it’s probably the OF Mass."

And so now i realize if you’re faculty etc. and not a student then I’m maybe not quite your mom’s age.

Nope, I’m a student. Twenty years old.

 

[Zabdi_Premjit]

Tetrapod: byzantine rite - table in nave with icon of day and (usually) cross.

Also, there are no candlestands for the people’s candles in the nave in many parishes; often they are in a side area; sometimes they are in the chapel of reservation (when the tablernacle is in a separate chapel, the tables of special intention candles are often placed in that chapel). Also, the candles will usually be tea-light sized, not tapers, and are in glass cups upon a table, which said table often is also the strongbox.

9: dip fingers in holy water, make sign of the cross.

19: from memory
Entry: Stand.
Opening prayer stand
penitential rite: stand
Lection: Sit
Gospel: stand
Homily: sit
offeratory: sit
Start of EP: Stand
End of EP: kneel
Communion Stand until reception; stand, sit, or kneel (traditionally kneel) until all have received
post communion reflection/prayer: sit
Closing Prayers: Stand.
Recessional stand.

Oh, and one other little thing: the crossing of oneself as the gospel is announced: Romans make three small crosses using their thumb, while praying silently: once each Forehead (May the lord be on my mind…) lips (on my lips…) and chest (and in my heart…). The priest or deacon does this while saying “May the Lord be on my mind, on my lips, and in my heart, that I may worthily proclaim the Holy Gospel.”

Marduk:
If the main altar and the tabernacle are in the same line, just genuflect.
If they are visibly separated, genuflect to the tabernacle. Bowing to the Altar is optional outside of mass, unless one is in the sanctuary. During the mass, genuflection when one approaches the tabernacle, bow when one crosses in front of the celebrant or the altar.
If the Tabernacle is in a separate chapel, just bow.

So I was taught by the Dominican Friars who did my religious education when I was in elementary school.

Thank you Aramis! You’ve been a great help in teaching me new facts about both the Latin-rite and my own rite.