The Case of the Curious Orthodox in Rome

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Roman veneration of statues is usually kneeling in prayer before them.

However, no one should object to veneration of them in the same manner as icons.
 
Do you think it’d be it’d look terribly odd if I venerated them? It’s hard to see a icon/figure of a saint and not want to venerate! :o
You would be setting a good example if you do venerate them. In U.S. culture most people won’t venerate such images, but in many other Latin Catholic cultures it’s the norm to make the rounds to the various Saints and at least pray at each before Mass, if not physically venerate them (oftentimes they are surrounded by candles and hard to reach). That is the traditional way things should be done, but unfortunately in the U.S. it has fallen by the wayside.

I’ve been fortunate in that the Latin parish I used to attend had many such images, and a sizable minority of the parishoners venerated them before and/or after the Mass. If people aren’t familiar with the practice they might be surprised to see you doing it, but you would actually be more in conformity with Latin tradition than they would be. 👍

Peace and God bless!
 
Do we bow when blessed by the priest?

Do we venerate the cross after Mass?

Does any one happen to know what saints are celebrated by the Latin church on Tuesday?

Also, yes, they are having a meal afterward.
 
One thing you might want to keep in mind: since this will most likely be an OF service, don’t expect too much by way of solemnity. Also, unless this campus group is hyper-traditional, be prepared for what I’ll call “innovative” music and hymns. Before anyone jumps down my throat about those remarks: my meaning is solemnity and music relative to an Eastern DL. The atmosphere (not to mention the hymnody) is entirely different.

Oh and I didn’t notice that anyone else mentioned it, but at the “peace” (I think the OF refers to it as the “sign of peace” which comes after the Lord’s Prayer) there will be a lot of handshaking, and probably some conversation, going on.
 
You would be setting a good example if you do venerate them. In U.S. culture most people won’t venerate such images, but in many other Latin Catholic cultures it’s the norm to make the rounds to the various Saints and at least pray at each before Mass, if not physically venerate them (oftentimes they are surrounded by candles and hard to reach). That is the traditional way things should be done, but unfortunately in the U.S. it has fallen by the wayside.

I’ve been fortunate in that the Latin parish I used to attend had many such images, and a sizable minority of the parishoners venerated them before and/or after the Mass. If people aren’t familiar with the practice they might be surprised to see you doing it, but you would actually be more in conformity with Latin tradition than they would be. 👍

Peace and God bless!
Hey Ghosty, your account still says Latin rite. I seem remember you saying you were in the process of changing rites. Has it taken this long? Or did you reconsider?

To be further off-topic,when I first joined this forum, I thought the picture in your signature was you. Then I found out you were male, and so I assumed it was you girlfriend. Then, a few months later, I looked up the quote. Imagine my surprise when I found out that she was a Catholic saint! Lol. it was pretty funny. I had been thinking Therese of Lisieux was your girlfriend for months! 😛
 
Again, for a college campus Mass I’d expect something on the informal end of things, but really this could be a group of students who are very traditional, and depends somewhat on the kind of worship space they have. You’ll find out on Tuesday. 🙂 And if you can “buddy up” with someone you can keep an eye on them, while still listening to your own gut…

malphono has mentioned the music which I’m not sure was mentioned before. Unlike the Divine Liturgy which is sung the NO is not typically sung, especially on a weekday during “Ordinary time” which we are now in. The only music might be an opening and closing hymn and maybe singing of the Responsorial Psalm . The readings are here and you can see what the Responsorial Psalm looks like. They might sing the Alleluia before the reading of the Gospel, not usually during the week. Everything else is spoken, probably.
Do you think it’d be it’d look terribly odd if I venerated them? It’s hard to see a icon/figure of a saint and not want to venerate! :o
When an RC arrives late they want to sneek into their pew, hoping to not be noticed. (I say “they” because I am never late arriving to Mass. 😉 ) So you would “look out of place” if venerating a statue once Mass has started. This would be different from an Eastern church. Depending on the ethnic group your fellow students may or may not venerate, kneeling or standing, if there are any statues, but distinctly before or after Mass.

If there is a tabernacle with the Blessed Sacrament present (the lamp lit and the chamber closed) it’s quite possible people might be kneeling in adoration there. Depending on whether the worship space has been open for some time before Mass people might well be kneeling praying the rosary, before the Blessed Sacrament on in the regular pews/chairs. They could even be praying the Stations of the Cross around the chapel/church if it’s a space that even has those, a small chapel or a meeting room may not. This all varies because these would be personal devotions, and somewhat dependent on whether it’s a permanent worship space or something they set up weekly for Mass.

It is entirely possible if they are in a small college chapel there is no tabernacle and are no statues, but there may be…
Do we bow when blessed by the priest?.
Do we venerate the cross after Mass?.
There is variation on this and *I really encourage you to do what feels right and respectful for you. *We are expected to bow at the end of the Mass for the final blessing, and many do not bow. In some versions of the blessing at the end of the Mass the priest will say “Bow your heads and pray for God’s blessing” before he invokes the Holy Trinity. Many of us likewise bow at the Introductory Rite, usually the first thing the priest will say at the start of Mass, when the priest begins with invocation of the Blessed Trinity.

During the recitation of the Creed at “by the power of the Holy Spirit He became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man .” we are supposed to make profound bow, at the waist, and again, many do, many do not. (A bow of the head is optional for the laity when the three Divine Persons are named together and at the names of Jesus, of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and of the Saint in whose honor Mass is being celebrated.)

If you are standing while the priest is saying the Words of Institution “Take this, all of you, and eat it: this is my body which will be given up for you.” he will genuflect, or should genuflect, after the consecration and the people should, if standing (should be kneeling) make a profound bow at that time and again when he genuflects after saying “Do this in memory of me.” after consecration of the cup. If kneeling the people do not bow their heads there, nor do they bow their heads at the Epiclesis, they should be kneeling (I usually bow my head while kneeling, but it’s not really proper to do so in the Latin understanding.)

One place where you can read more background on “posture” during the Mass is the General Instruction of the Roman Missal. It’s not, in my opinion, really a good idea to get into studying this but you can look at it just to see where, in theory, much, not all, of the information is. See “Movements and Posture” section. Sitting during the Mass is never given as a posture for prayer in the GIRM, only standing or kneeling. However, they might sit for praying if there are no kneelers, or they might stand or they might kneel on the floor.

The priest will not have a hand held Blessing Cross.
Does any one happen to know what saints are celebrated by the Latin church on Tuesday?.
Here and here are some references for saints celebrated by day.
Also, yes, they are having a meal afterward.
Great! I hope you stay and visit with them.
Also, there are no candlestands for the people’s candles in the nave in many parishes; often they are in a side area; … Also, the candles will usually be tea-light sized, not tapers, and are in glass cups upon a table…
Thanks for the reminder of our votive candles, usually in stands:: “…they have taken away my candles, and I know not where they have put them.” Actually, I do know where they are in my parish and they are … electric light bulbs in little votive cups… :(-]/-]
 
Hey Ghosty, your account still says Latin rite. I seem remember you saying you were in the process of changing rites. Has it taken this long? Or did you reconsider?

To be further off-topic,when I first joined this forum, I thought the picture in your signature was you. Then I found out you were male, and so I assumed it was you girlfriend. Then, a few months later, I looked up the quote. Imagine my surprise when I found out that she was a Catholic saint! Lol. it was pretty funny. I had been thinking Therese of Lisieux was your girlfriend for months! 😛
Hehehe, for some reason lots of people think I’m woman because of the pic in my signature.

As for the transfer, I’m still in the process. My fiance is currently in the process of getting Baptized in the Melkite Church, and then when we’re married it’ll be a snap for me to transfer. I still practice full time as a Melkite, have for years, serve on the parish council, and teach Sunday school. Our mission is hosting the 2010 National Melkite Convention, and I’ve been helping to plan that as well. 🙂

Peace and God bless!
 
Hehehe, for some reason lots of people think I’m woman because of the pic in my signature.

As for the transfer, I’m still in the process. My fiance is currently in the process of getting Baptized in the Melkite Church, and then when we’re married it’ll be a snap for me to transfer. I still practice full time as a Melkite, have for years, serve on the parish council, and teach Sunday school. Our mission is hosting the 2010 National Melkite Convention, and I’ve been helping to plan that as well. 🙂

Peace and God bless!
That’s sound like a great opportunity/experience (to host the national convention).

Btw, I think you mean fiancee, not fiance. 😉
 
Hehehe, for some reason lots of people think I’m woman because of the pic in my signature.

As for the transfer, I’m still in the process. My fiance is currently in the process of getting Baptized in the Melkite Church, and then when we’re married it’ll be a snap for me to transfer. I still practice full time as a Melkite, have for years, serve on the parish council, and teach Sunday school. Our mission is hosting the 2010 National Melkite Convention, and I’ve been helping to plan that as well. 🙂

Peace and God bless!
You know Ghosty, when you’re expatiating on arcane facts concerning the filioque, that face gets really menacing!
 
Also, bowing is involved if incense is being used. The priest/deacon (i believe) will cense the altar, the crucifix, and the people in the sanctuary. He’ll then cense the congregation. You stand, bow (the priest will bow to you as well), then will be censed (some people make the sign of the cross here), then you bow again.

Also, many will make the sign of the cross during the procesional, when the crucifix and Gospels pass them. The sign of the cross also occurs if the priest sprinkles everyone with holy water.
 
the Holy Spirit will come and rest upon the gifts before the Narrative, unlike what the East is used too.
 
Do we bow when blessed by the priest?

Do we venerate the cross after Mass?

Does any one happen to know what saints are celebrated by the Latin church on Tuesday?

Also, yes, they are having a meal afterward.
You may, most don’t.

no. Except on the feast of the Exultation the Holy Cross. Then it’s down on knees kissing the feet on a 2’ or larger crucifix…

I’ll check… looks like First Martyrs of Rome.

good. Go, and share.

Also note: incense use is permitted, but not required. Most don’t bother.
 
So did you ever go? What happened? 🙂
I went. It was far different than a Divine Liturgy. I went with my friend, an nonreligious Catholic who hasn’t been to a church in ages. He made a point to emphsise that “regular masses are not like this”. Which, if even an nonreligious Catholic attests to it, is probably true. I’d say the service was like…“Protestantism with a script”. The meal/fellowship afterward was nice as I got to meet some of the people there. Perhaps one day I’ll go to a more traditional Mass.

Questions:

-Why do some people only commune with bread?
-Do Eucharistic wafers always come pre-made in a commercial(-like) package?
 
I went. It was far different than a Divine Liturgy. I went with my friend, an nonreligious Catholic who hasn’t been to a church in ages. He made a point to emphsise that “regular masses are not like this”. Which, if even an nonreligious Catholic attests to it, is probably true. I’d say the service was like…“Protestantism with a script”. The meal/fellowship afterward was nice as I got to meet some of the people there. Perhaps one day I’ll go to a more traditional Mass.
Well, I think some of us tried to “warn” you a college campus Mass could be very downplayed. Sigh… There is quite a spectrum out there on campuses depending on the campus community but probably more often than not it’s similar to what you had there. I’m glad you had some good fellowship afterward.
Questions:
-Why do some people only commune with bread?
-Do Eucharistic wafers always come pre-made in a commercial(-like) package?
I don’t know why some people didn’t share the Precious Blood at that Mass. Some people feel uncomfortable doing so. Prior to the Second Vatican Council the Precious Blood was not offered to, “avoided by”, the faithful. There are people with allergies to the accidents of wine, or are alcoholics in recovery and do not want to consume the accidents of wine. If the Precious Blood is being offered and someone does not choose to drink of it they are to reverence the Presence as they pass by, not just walk past. (At my parish I’d estimate that about 1/3 to1/2 of the faithful do not take the Precious Blood.)

Since the Church teaches that our Lord , the Real Presence, is fully present, body, blood, soul, and divinity in the species of bread* (consecrated host, the Precious Body) and fully present in the Precious Blood, consecrated wine, it is not necessary to receive both. The Catechism encourages taking the Eucharist under both species. (In the Tridentine Mass the Precious Blood is only consumed by the priests and, I think deacons, not sure about that. I’m not familiar with the Tridentine Mass. You were in the Ordinary Form, Novus Ordo Missæ, or the New Order Of Mass.)

There are currently a number of locations in the US where due to the swine flu the local Bishop has instructed the priests not to offer the faithful to have the Precious Blood.

Because there is a greater chance of accidentally spilling the Precious Blood there are also occasions when it is not offered.

In my experience in many places over many years the host as you describe it is typical. Some are made thinner for use for distribution to the frail in nursing homes and hospitals etc. Because any particle of the Precious Body, the consecrated host, is the Real Presence of our Lord, fragile hosts that could produce crumbs, present a danger of falling or in some other way not getting consumed, so in general a fairly substantial host/wafer is used. As you probably saw, the faithful have the right to receive in the hand or on the tongue. This is the source of much discussion.

Questions:
Were those Catholics attending and the priest welcoming to you?
Did you get a chance to talk with the priest at all?
Were they interested in talking about Orthodoxy with you?

God bless- Mary Louise
  • CCC #1390 Since Christ is sacramentally present under each of the species, communion under the species of bread alone makes it possible to receive all the fruit of Eucharistic grace. For pastoral reasons this manner of receiving communion has been legitimately established as the most common form in the Latin rite. But “the sign of communion is more complete when given under both kinds, since in that form the sign of the Eucharistic meal appears more clearly.” This is the usual form of receiving communion in the Eastern rites. (Catechism of the Catholic Church)
    usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2chpt1art3.shtml#1390
  • GIRM (GENERAL INSTRUCTION OF THE ROMAN MISSAL) # 241. For the faithful who take part in the rite or are present at it, pastors should take care to call to mind as clearly as possible Catholic teaching according to the Council of Trent on the manner of communion. Above all they should instruct the people that according to Catholic faith Christ, whole and entire, as well as the true sacrament are received even under one kind only; that, therefore, as far as the effects are concerned, those who receive in this manner are not deprived of any grace necessary for salvation. See Council of Trent, sess. 21, Decr. “De Communione eucharistica” cap. 1-3: Denz-Schon 1725-29.
    ewtn.com/library/CURIA/GIRM.HTM#3
 
Perhaps one day I’ll go to a more traditional Mass.

Questions:

-Why do some people only commune with bread?
-Do Eucharistic wafers always come pre-made in a commercial(-like) package?
In order: Do so. Ask your locals for a reverent “Modern Mass” and for a Latin Mass. See each.

-Because it is Roman tradition to do so, and was such for centuries, until the 1970’s or so, except for certain special occasions where intinction by dipping was used.
-yes. Traditionally made by nuns… now made by machine.
 
  • Entrance song my be a hymn, or a spoken or chanted proper.
    • Recessional and communion hymns may be sung or omitted, or even spoken.
    • creed options. May be Nicene-constantinopolitan plus filioque, may be apostle’s creed, may be baptismal promises (if a baptism, confirmation, or certain other conditions), may be omitted entirely on weekdays
    • Penitential Rite: Confeitor (I confess to almighty God…) or Kyrie or Lord have mercy
    • Eucharistic Prayer: 4 “ordinary” EP’s, and about 8 optional ones for special uses.
    • While the lection may be chanted, it’s rare that it is done so. Daily mass might be old testament or epistle reading. Sundays usually one each
    • Offeratory: may be collection, may just be the gifts being brought forward, or might be ommitted. May have a hymn.
      ==========================================================
      Heel Cup
      contact solution
 
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