The Catechism's Definition of Theft

[seekerofanswers]

As a Catholic, I take issue with the definition of theft as written in the Catechism: “There is no theft if consent can be presumed or if refusal is contrary to reason and the universal destination of goods.” This seems like a cheap way to justify the Church’s support of taxation (theft by the state). Nowhere in the Ten Commandments does it say, “Thou shalt not steal unless you give it to the poor.”

What is your take on this issue?

P.S. This post was inspired by the following article, if you care to read it: voluntaryist.com/forthcoming/confusedideas.html

 

[Julia_Mae]

As a Catholic, I take issue with the definition of theft as written in the Catechism: “There is no theft if consent can be presumed or if refusal is contrary to reason and the universal destination of goods.” This seems like a cheap way to justify the Church’s support of taxation (theft by the state). Nowhere in the Ten Commandments does it say, “Thou shalt not steal unless you give it to the poor.”

What is your take on this issue?

P.S. This post was inspired by the following article, if you care to read it: voluntaryist.com/forthcoming/confusedideas.html

When you post a CCC quote, it’s a good idea to put the para number, like you would a citation from Scripture.

 

[bzkoss236]

Are you saying all taxation is theft?

 

[seekerofanswers]

My apologies, I am still fairly new here. The quote is from paragraph 2408.

 

[seekerofanswers]

Are you saying all taxation is theft?

I am saying that the Catechism’s definition makes taxation seem justifiable. I would make the case that governments should not be excluded from “Thou shalt not steal”, but that is not really my question. My question is, why did the Church redefine theft in the first place?

 

[bzkoss236]

I am saying that the Catechism’s definition makes taxation seem justifiable. I would make the case that governments should not be excluded from “Thou shalt not steal”, but that is not really my question. My question is, why did the Church redefine theft in the first place?

That still doesn’t answer my question. Are you saying all taxation is unjust and theft? Or only some forms of taxation?

 

[seekerofanswers]

That still doesn’t answer my question. Are you saying all taxation is unjust and theft? Or only some forms of taxation?

I personally view all taxes as theft. In this thread, I am comparing my views to those of the Church.

 

[bzkoss236]

I personally view all taxes as theft. In this thread, I am comparing my views to those of the Church.

Do you pay for internet? Do you pay for a computer or television set? Is it unjust and theft for companies to want compensation for services and products they provide?

Do you know where you taxes go? How would people who work for the government full-time be paid? How would the men who pick up your garbage be paid? Taxes go toward many goods and services that you take for granted.

Unjust taxation is theft, but not all taxation is unjust.

And in regards to your statement about “stealing” from the rich and giving it to the poor. Are we as Catholics, and Christians in general, not told to take care of the poor and needy?

I think the Church’s view on what is theft is correct. Don’t forget that that Jesus said, “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.”

 

[seekerofanswers]

Do you pay for internet? Do you pay for a computer or television set? Is it unjust and theft for companies to want compensation for services and products they provide?

No, it is absolutely not unjust; I am voluntarily giving these companies money.

Do you know where you taxes go? How would people who work for the government full-time be paid? How would the men who pick up your garbage be paid? Taxes go toward many goods and services that you take for granted.

Services that the government provides would be of higher quality and would be more efficient in the free market. Not only that, but they would all be voluntarily paid for.

Unjust taxation is theft, but not all taxation is unjust.

Justify this, please. Not all stealing is unjust?

And in regards to your statement about “stealing” from the rich and giving it to the poor. Are we as Catholics, and Christians in general, not told to take care of the poor and needy?

Yes, but Jesus asked the rich man to give everything he had to the poor, he did not tell the poor to steal from the rich man.

I think the Church’s view on what is theft is correct. Don’t forget that that Jesus said, “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.”

Also remember that Jesus said: “You know that those who are recognized as rulers over the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones make their authority over them felt. But it shall not be so among you.” (Mark 10:42-43)

 

[Lochias]

I personally view all taxes as theft. In this thread, I am comparing my views to those of the Church.

Well, Jesus didn’t view all taxes as theft. Do you think it possible that Jesus somehow got it wrong?

 

[Lochias]

Also remember that Jesus said: “You know that those who are recognized as rulers over the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones make their authority over them felt. But it shall not be so among you.” (Mark 10:42-43)

So, how do you reconcile this verse with Jesus also telling folks to render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s? Do you think it’s possible that you’re looking at Mark 10:42-43 in an incorrect context?

 

[seekerofanswers]

So, how do you reconcile this verse with Jesus also telling folks to render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s? Do you think it’s possible that you’re looking at Mark 10:42-43 in an incorrect context?

Maybe, but Jesus may have simply been rejecting the established currency, or simply telling his followers to turn the other cheek when taxed. He may have been saying that since fiat currency is coined and printed by the state, it belongs to the state. Again, I am here to learn, so let me know what you believe.

 

[Lochias]

Maybe, but Jesus may have simply been rejecting the established currency, or simply telling his followers to turn the other cheek when taxed. He may have been saying that since fiat currency is coined and printed by the state, it belongs to the state. Again, I am here to learn, so let me know what you believe.

I believe what the Church teaches on these various issues, because that’s what the Church is here for. That being said, every time I’ve had a question about the faith and looked into the history or philosophy of it, I got my answers, and they never once conflicted with Church teaching. I suppose my point is that instead of automatically assuming the Church has something wrong, you should be open to the (greater) possibility that you simply don’t understand something correctly, or have misinterpreted it.

I would suggest that you use the “Ask an Apologist” section of the forums to get a more direct response to your question. Having not studied the history behind the verses, I’m not much help to you in the direct-response department. I would encourage you to study exactly what these verses mean…ask your local priest or bishop, who will know what, who, when, how and why.

 

[seekerofanswers]

instead of automatically assuming the Church has something wrong

I hope that’s not how I came across! I believe that Christians are often too fond of their earthly governments, and I believe there is Biblical evidence that often goes unnoticed, like Ephesians 6:12, Judges 8:23, and Acts 5:29. I am attempting to reconcile my views on the immorality of taxation and not giving certain organizations (namely, governments ) exemption with the views of the Church.

I would suggest that you use the “Ask an Apologist” section of the forums

I have tried this but my questions do not get answered.

 

[bzkoss236]

No, it is absolutely not unjust; I am voluntarily giving these companies money.

You don’t feel it is your civic duty to help provide for those under employment of the state? If not, where would they get their money? Also, you voluntarily live in a place with taxation. You have the choice to move elsewhere.

Services that the government provides would be of higher quality and would be more efficient in the free market. Not only that, but they would all be voluntarily paid for.

But what about services which can only be provided by the state, such as government oversight? How would those who work in government be paid if not for taxes? Or are you implying that we shouldn’t have government?

Justify this, please. Not all stealing is unjust?

Stealing is unjust, but just taxation is not. If all taxation was in fact stealing, then taxation would be unjust, but that is not the case.

 

[seekerofanswers]

You don’t feel it is your civic duty to help provide for those under employment of the state? If not, where would they get their money? Also, you voluntarily live in a place with taxation. You have the choice to move elsewhere.

Providing for those under employment of the state? The state should not be in the business of creating jobs, that is the responsibility of the market. In the absence of coercive government, government workers would take up jobs in the market. They would get their money from consumers paying for services that they desire. And no, I am not really voluntarily living in a place with taxation because taxation exists everywhere.

But what about services which can only be provided by the state, such as government oversight? How would those who work in government be paid if not for taxes? Or are you implying that we shouldn’t have government?

Government oversight of what? All government should be voluntarily funded and voluntarily recognized, by means of privatizing all government service monopolies, including defense. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntaryism for more detail. Taken from the Wikipedia article: “. . . every government ‘presumes to establish a compulsory monopoly of defense (police and courts) service over some geographical area. So that individual property owners who prefer to subscribe to another defense company within that area are not allowed to do so’; and, second, that every government obtains its income by stealing, euphemistically labeled ‘taxation’.”

Stealing is unjust, but just taxation is not. If all taxation was in fact stealing, then taxation would be unjust, but that is not the case.

Again, you are glorifying the state as being exempt from moral law. If another organization demanded that you give it money and threatened imprisonment if you did not comply, it would be an immoral act. Why is the state granted a special exemption?

 

[bzkoss236]

Sounds like anarchy to me.

With my understanding of human beings as they are, especially those within the US. A system like that would fail. People are too greedy.

 

[seekerofanswers]

Sounds like anarchy to me.

With my understanding of human beings as they are, especially those within the US. A system like that would fail. People are too greedy.

We are not discussing the effectiveness of this system, we are discussing its morality. Greed is immoral, but it is a personal immorality. Besides, greed exists in our current society, perhaps to greater extremes, as greedy businesses can seek competitive advantages by lobbying the government. Whether or not greedy people exist, a voluntary society is the only moral system of government.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

There are certain jobs that must come from the government because they require the authority of the government. Namely, soldiers and police. Those really cannot be private companies because then they would have no real authority. Is it unjust to use tax money to pay the salaries of those individuals? Or firefighters? Judges?

 

[Lochias]

I hope that’s not how I came across! I believe that Christians are often too fond of their earthly governments, and I believe there is Biblical evidence that often goes unnoticed, like Ephesians 6:12, Judges 8:23, and Acts 5:29. I am attempting to reconcile my views on the immorality of taxation and not giving certain organizations (namely, governments ) exemption with the views of the Church.

Noted, thanks.

I have tried this but my questions do not get answered.

Have you read the guidelines about using the Ask An Apologist forum? (Assuming you did, but it never hurts to be sure.)