The Catholic Church and its views on Ceremonial Magic, Enochian Magic and Visualization

[LongingSoul]

Praying with visualisation is how we are supposed to pray for example when praying for a broken leg to be healed. We pray to God in the name of Jesus and visualise the Holy Spirit, the power of God, going into the person and visualise the bones realigning and being healed. Jesus said if we ask in his name he will do it. We ask on God in Jesus name, believe it, and then it manifests itself in the natural world by the power of almighty God. If you don’t believe it then it doesn’t work. If you don’t have the Holy Spirit living within you it doesn’t work either.

Doing this without God as the power is what the occult does. It’s Satans counterfiet. Only Satan can not create anything. Healing can occur just by shifting demons from one part of the body to another if the one praying has a more powerful demon than the one attacking the sick person. A healing is the taking away of something like an illness. A miracle is the addition or creating of somthing like new cartilage, organs, repairing shredded tendons and the like. If you are worried about being decieved by false signs and wonders then look for miracles not just healings. Only God can create.

I don’t think this is fully on the mark with regards to visualisation and the Catholic faith. Only that me being a person with a naturally active imagination, I’ve been drawn to ideas such as creative visualisation etc in my younger years but now in my later years can contrast that dabbling with how imagination comes into such things as St Ignatius’ spiritual exercises.

The idea of an inner healer or healing power whether we invoke Jesus name in prayer or not, is already an elevation of the self over God. “Apart from me you can do nothing” (John 15:5)

Hopefully someone more knowledgable on this topic could give wise guidance on that point.

 

[Aussieman88]

The bible defines faith. Evidence of things unseen … Look that up.
Now look up the websters dictionary for the meaning of ímagination.
You will find it says the same thing only using different words. There’s a whole hours teaching on just that alone and it’s worth it’s own thread.

check it out.

 

[Love4All]

I don’t think this is fully on the mark with regards to visualisation and the Catholic faith. Only that me being a person with a naturally active imagination, I’ve been drawn to ideas such as creative visualisation etc in my younger years but now in my later years can contrast that dabbling with how imagination comes into such things as St Ignatius’ spiritual exercises.

The idea of an inner healer or healing power whether we invoke Jesus name in prayer or not, is already an elevation of the self over God. “Apart from me you can do nothing” (John 15:5)

Hopefully someone more knowledgable on this topic could give wise guidance on that point.

You’re right, despite Aussieman’s protests, that smacks of magic.

We can ask God for what we need. We don’t need to help Him exercise His power.

 

[Verchiel]

As far as I know the Key of Solomon has never been authenticated. Many believe these writs and the many like them, such as the Sword of Mosses were written by monks, would be scientists and self proclaimed divinatory scribes seeking notoriety. This era was filled with those working to catch the attentions of Nobel families hungry for prophecy, divination and all types of arcane majiks. Case in point, Rasputin, the mad monk. How ever the Books of Enoch are much more likely to be authentic, not only authentic but these writings or stories are actually verified by other writs from the region. Although this is very likely, I would never encourage any one to conjure any one or anything.

 

[Kasmalim]

From what I remember, the Book of Enoch has nothing to do with Enochian Magic. Also, the Book of Enoch was referred to a few times in the NT, so please don’t associate the two because of the name.

 

[Verchiel]

Enochian Magic is indeed derived from the books of Enoch, at least according to John Dee (Paul Warring) and Edward Kelly. The books support the ancient legend of the watchers and Nephliem which are Angels on Earth, which of course transgressed the law of God by teaching sorceries, war, metallurgy and many more things forbidden to early man. Understanding the connection is the key, no pun intended, but there is a definite connection. You really should not attempt to correct fellow posters unless you know what you are talking about my friend, no offence intended.

 

[Kasmalim]

Where are you getting this from, Verchiel? John Dee did not even have access to the Book of Enoch. In fact it was thought of as lost for many years, and Dee tried to revive it by speaking to spirits. He knew of its existence from the Book of Jude, and was fascinated by what might be in it.

Maybe you’re confused because of the name “Enochian”? Well, Dee didn’t really even use that term. He called it “Adamic” and “Angelical”.

The spirits in Enochian Magic are supposedly the servants of the 24 from the Book of Revelations, like most other systems of Western Magic these spirits were just another bunch who taught alchemy, magic, etc, albeit at a much higher level. They are certainly not the Nephilim from the Book of Enoch…

 

[Verchiel]

Have you read the book of mystery’s your self ?, because you are confusing me as well. All of Dees work, albeit more Kelly than Dee centered on secrets derived from the books of Enoch. These so called secrets were brought forth from the books by angles Dee and Kelly apparently spoke with. This includes Enochian script and the so called angelic language. You also realize that the Books of Enoch have been around along time? They were regarded as Apocrypha by the early Church, now some of the books have been verified by the DSS. And yes, the Book of Enoch 1 is the hinge work now called upon by theorists and believers of the legend of the Watchers every where. The Watchers are the fathers of Nephliem.

 

[Kasmalim]

Yes, I’ve read it. Dee did not. Read the Five Books of Mystery: there’s a part where Dee implies the Book of Enoch is lost, and the spirit answered that it wasn’t lost but was in the keeping of some Jews. Liber Loagaeth was also called the “Book of Enoch”; maybe that’s what you’re meaning?

 

[Verchiel]

I have read Dees works, many writs from the documents found long after his death. I believe Dee ,of course this is opinion, but I believe he purposely attempted to be ignorant of many things, in order to make it appear as though he were being given this knowledge by other worldly beings. But Dee knows to much about the books, and they were available.
The older sections (mainly in the Book of the Watchers) are estimated to date from about 300 BC, and the latest part (Book of Parables) probably was composed at the end of the 1st century BC.
But in my original answer to you I was referring to your statement that Enochian Majik and the books were not connected, or the only connection was familiar sounding names, which is not the case. Enochian majik is directly connected to the Books of Enoch.
What he wrote were supposed secrets from the very books.

 

[Back2Church]

Enochian Magic is indeed derived from the books of Enoch, at least according to John Dee (Paul Warring) and Edward Kelly.

Nope. Dee did not take the books of Enoch and derive a system of magic out of them. I think you might want to refresh your memory on exactly what the relation between Dee’s magic and the apochryphal books of Enoch are.

At any rate, despite what Dee may have thought or believed, his system of magic (or any others, for that matter) should be avoided. Meditate on the draw and compulsion towards learning and practicing such a system. Is it truly rooted in accepting and following God’s will? Or is it for some other reason.

I recently learned that the Hebrew word for sin basically means to miss the mark. We spend our lives aiming ourselves toward God and heaven, yet we miss the mark with so many things we do. Is practicing Dee’s magic going to put us in heaven, or does it miss the mark?

 

[Kasmalim]

Verchiel, are you actually saying that while the Book of Enoch was lost to the West (and existed solely in Ethiopia), Dee somehow acquired a copy? People only realized it’s existence after Dee’s death, and then only in some Semitic language; and even after that, it had only started being published in the late 1700s.

But let me assume, for a moment, that Dee managed to get his hands on the Book of Enoch (meaning he blatantly lied about that bit in his diaries). How is there a connection? And moreover, what is this connection that you speak of?

 

[Verchiel]

Nope. Dee did not take the books of Enoch and derive a system of magic out of them. I think you might want to refresh your memory on exactly what the relation between Dee’s magic and the apochryphal books of Enoch are.

At any rate, despite what Dee may have thought or believed, his system of magic (or any others, for that matter) should be avoided. Meditate on the draw and compulsion towards learning and practicing such a system. Is it truly rooted in accepting and following God’s will? Or is it for some other reason.

I recently learned that the Hebrew word for sin basically means to miss the mark. We spend our lives aiming ourselves toward God and heaven, yet we miss the mark with so many things we do. Is practicing Dee’s magic going to put us in heaven, or does it miss the mark?

You take me wrongly Sir, I would never practice such things. I believe Dee was more than likely a charlatan, as many were in those time as I have said before, there were many attempting to make names for them selves in the mystic market (if you will) Paul Warring (Dee) was only one of many. I found the book entertaining, but my original search was for Apocalyptic writs and I enjoyed the story of Kelly’s keys. An odd twist on the end of days and how this would be accomplished in method. As far as the books of Enoch, the story of the Watchers is a fascinating study, to say the very least, thank you for your interest in the protection of my soul, and the souls of those reading here.

 

[Verchiel]

Verchiel, are you actually saying that while the Book of Enoch was lost to the West (and existed solely in Ethiopia), Dee somehow acquired a copy? People only realized it’s existence after Dee’s death, and then only in some Semitic language; and even after that, it had only started being published in the late 1700s.

But let me assume, for a moment, that Dee managed to get his hands on the Book of Enoch (meaning he blatantly lied about that bit in his diaries). How is there a connection? And moreover, what is this connection that you speak of?

I believe it may have been only lost to you sir lol! Please excuse my humor, but The Books have survived for many centuries in one form or another. I would not base all I understand about the Books on Dees words. You began with no connection, we know that’s not true, you said no Nehpliem, we know that’s not true. I stand by my original answer to you my friend, but please keep trying if you like lol!

 

[Kasmalim]

Well, then believe what you like. You’ve given no logical answers to my question, only repeating your statement that there’s a sure connection, and not telling me what it is, other than there’s Nephilim in Dee’s works (and by the way the word Grigori/Watchers is also mentioned in other works too, so it’s not exclusive to the Book of Enoch)… The Book of Enoch was used for a lot of occult stuff, especially a system of lunar planetary magic, and also the Book of Psalms was and still is used heavily by magicians. But to say with a surety that Enochian Magic was derived from the Book of Enoch is quite a statement, considering there’s no facts to support it.

 

[Back2Church]

You take me wrongly Sir, I would never practice such things. I believe Dee was more than likely a charlatan, as many were in those time as I have said before, there were many attempting to make names for them selves in the mystic market (if you will) Paul Warring (Dee) was only one of many. I found the book entertaining, but my original search was for Apocalyptic writs and I enjoyed the story of Kelly’s keys. An odd twist on the end of days and how this would be accomplished in method. As far as the books of Enoch, the story of the Watchers is a fascinating study, to say the very least, thank you for your interest in the protection of my soul, and the souls of those reading here.

Sorry, I wasn’t meaning to say you specifically should not practice it. I was merely speaking to the original intent of this thread, which was asking if it was a sin or not.

 

[SancteIra]

Isn’t Prayer itself a form of magic when you think about it? We even use the more commonly used “Magic language”, Latin for our scripts and even reply “Amen” at the end of each prayer, “Amen” being a Latin word derived from “I Agree” as if to the terms of a vow or contract. Curiosity is considered “Dangerous” to the Catholic church, and no doubt it is since as human beings we are easily influenced. When thinking about magic, you have to think about it from all angles so it is considered Extremely Dangerous toward our faith, but the “practice of occult clause” was meant toward practices outside of our own church. If one is to try and summon an angel for personal reason or vendetta, then no doubt they should expect holy wrath, but if you do so in order to ask questions or to give gratitude, why should it be considered “against the church?”, well apart from probably taking valuable time away from the angels’ work … truth in this case is, don’t try if you are unsure of your faith, and don’t try if you are merely curious, when one practices magic, they should only do so with a clear goal in mind and with completely ironed will toward their faith. After all, magic is directly correlated to the user’s will. Hope this helps.

 

[LongingSoul]

Prayer is the act of submitting your mind and will to God. Practicing magic is the act of employing your mind and will to utilize occult forces to manipulate life. They are completely contradictory in every way.