The Catholic Church and religious coercion- the smoking gun 2

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Well, you are wrong. Where is the coercion? It simply states that if baptized persons deny their sponsors’ baptismal promise, IOW, his baptism, them being children notwithstanding, they can do so, ‘to be left to their own will’. When they grow up where they do not confirm their baptismal faith (as promised by their sponsors), they can leave

This means they are free to make their own decision as adults, to stay with the faith or leave it. They are not compelled (forced) to stay and NO penalty is imposed.

The only penalty is they are excluded from receiving the sacraments. For your information, receiving the Eucharist is only for practicing Catholics in a state of grace. That a person who denies his baptism should be excluded from the Eucharist, I think the penalty is absolutely minimal.

If you do not believe anymore, you are excommunicated and not to receive the sacraments (including the Eucharist) – what the big deal about that?

I don’t know where you read that but there is no such thing. In fact to the contrary,*** they are to be left to their own will***. If they do not ratify their baptism, they are free to leave according to their will. There will be no penalty imposed on them except for — **they cannot receive the Holy Communion in the Eucharist and other sacraments. **

Nonsense! What penalties? They are anathemanized (excommunicated) as they do not believe in the faith. It is the same everywhere, if you do not believe the teaching of your church, you would leave.

Actually in the Catholic Church, FYI, an excommunicated person may not necessarily be damned. It is just that he cannot receive the sacraments but he is free to live a religious life and God will judge him on that.

Reuben
Well, first, you don’t understand how these are written, a mistake a couple of other posters made as well: If anyone says X, let him be anathema. That means the Church disagrees with X, and in fact, thinks X so heinous that holding that idea is incompatible with being a Catholic in good standing.

Second, Telstar showed that what the rest of us thought it was saying is not what it is saying. See her post near the top of page 4–some of the words are in red.
 
I don’t see any coersion by the Church taken place. In fact it looks like it’s the Church protecting those who have been baptized as infants from being coerced to think their baptism is somehow invalid by warning the coercers with an anathema.
 
Well, first, you don’t understand how these are written, a mistake a couple of other posters made as well: If anyone says X, let him be anathema. That means the Church disagrees with X, and in fact, thinks X so heinous that holding that idea is incompatible with being a Catholic in good standing.

Second, Telstar showed that what the rest of us thought it was saying is not what it is saying. See her post near the top of page 4–some of the words are in red.
Thank you. I am sorry I do not understand how these are written. It is just that the idea of the Church coercing people just do not make sense to me. Thanks for correcting me.
:o

God bless.

Reuben.
 
Thank you. I am sorry I do not understand how these are written. It is just that the idea of the Church coercing people just do not make sense to me. Thanks for correcting me.
:o

God bless.

Reuben.
It is not an uncommon problem–i had a hard time with it myself. I tend to change the sentence a bit: from “if anyone say X, let him be anathema” to “it is wrong to say X.”

As to the idea that the Church coerces people, that was an attempt by someone outside the Church to show that the Church is wrong; however, he has a bad definition of coercion, believing that experiencing consequences means one is being coerced.
 
From the portion On Baptism: “CANON XIII.-If any one saith, that little children, for that they have not actual faith, are not, after having received baptism, to be reckoned amongst the faithful; and that, for this cause, they are to be rebaptized when they have attained to years of discretion; or, that it is better that the baptism of such be omitted, than that, while not believing by their own act, they should be baptized in the faith alone of the Church; let him be anathema.”

Ok, so that’s infant baptism. Despite not having “actual faith” or “years of discretion,” an infant baptism is all the things that any other baptism is. And immediately following this, we come to the smoking gun.

From the Council of Trent, Session 7, the portion On Baptism:
“CANON XIV.-If any one saith, that those who have been thus baptized when children, are, when they have grown up, to be asked whether they will ratify what their sponsors promised in their names when they were baptized; and that, in case they answer that they will not, they are to be left to their own will; and are not to be compelled meanwhile to a Christian life by any other penalty, save that they be excluded from the participation of the Eucharist, and of the other sacraments, until they repent; let him be anathema.”

That is the smoking gun. That is religious coercion. As if it’s not enough that infants are ushered into Catholic membership through the promise of their sponsors (and evidently that really was not enough for the Trent Magisterium), when cradle Catholics come of age, they shall not be left to their own free will. You might think their only penalty for abandoning the Church would be exclusions from the sacramental life of the Church, but no- they are to be compelled by other penalties as well, by no means shall you just allow them to leave like that, you must get behind the idea that you should compel such a person with penalties other than a basic lack of membership. And if you don’t support that you are anathema.
[Lk14:23 Then the master said to the slave, ‘Go out into the roads and lanes, and **compel people to come in, so that my house may be filled.]

I was compelled by the fear of hell to turn to Christ when still a sinner. Every time I sin I am compelled by God’s grace to repent or go to hell.

[Pv3:11 My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord; neither be weary of his correction: 12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.]
 
Oh yeah, and if you reject your baptismal vows, aren’t you either saying you don’t reject satan :eek: or you reject some de fide teaching? Which I think either way will get you excommunicated automatically which is another penalty in addition to reception of the sacraments. Nowadays excommunications are often lifted in Reconciliation though :cool:
 
Thank you. I am sorry I do not understand how these are written. It is just that the idea of the Church coercing people just do not make sense to me. Thanks for correcting me.
:o

God bless.

Reuben.
Reuben, to you the coercion on the part of the CC, is the penalty, so that we can know for sure that coercion is taking place. What exactly are the penalties imposed by Trent? Until we know that we cannot be certain that it is coercion. After all the definition of coercion is, as everyone knows: the practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats. Perhaps the penalty is neither a force or a threat, but rather a minor punitive action such as a suspension, something saint Paul enforces:

"I’m now telling you again what we’ve told you in the past: If anyone tells you good news that is different from the Good News you received, (in other words someone not belonging to the church that Paul belonged to) let them be under God’s curse!
Galatians

Like Edwin mentioned, this statement by Paul does not seem to be coercion (I disagree though) - and neither are the penalties imposed by Trent, unless you can prove it i.e. identify them. If you cannot then no need to believe that the Catholic Church is coercing people - right? Of course Paul’s ultimate goal is to keep the person in the fold where doctrinal truth can be found, in order to avoid eternal hell. Your thoughts my friend?
 
Reuben, to you the coercion on the part of the CC, is the penalty, so that we can know for sure that coercion is taking place. What exactly are the penalties imposed by Trent? Until we know that we cannot be certain that it is coercion. After all the definition of coercion is, as everyone knows: the practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats. Perhaps the penalty is neither a force or a threat, but rather a minor punitive action such as a suspension, something saint Paul enforces:

"I’m now telling you again what we’ve told you in the past: If anyone tells you good news that is different from the Good News you received, (in other words someone not belonging to the church that Paul belonged to) let them be under God’s curse!
Galatians

Like Edwin mentioned, this statement by Paul does not seem to be coercion (I disagree though) - and neither are the penalties imposed by Trent, unless you can prove it i.e. identify them. If you cannot then no need to believe that the Catholic Church is coercing people - right? Of course Paul’s ultimate goal is to keep the person in the fold where doctrinal truth can be found, in order to avoid eternal hell. Your thoughts my friend?
Hi Joe.
Yes, that was what I seemed to have in mind – that penalty constitutes coercion. There is no coercion. There is obviously none that could be identified as coercion.

I do not believe that canon XIV on baptism is coercion as explained in my posts. I just thought that if one denies one’s baptism, then one is excommunicated – that is unable to receive the sacraments but one is free to leave and live a life one chooses, but if he does not live a Christian life, let him be an anathema. This is different from what the OP implied and stated here. He was saying that there is coercion by the Church.

However, I might not understand the wording of the said canon properly and thus was corrected by St Francis. A canon lawyer would perhaps be in a better position to explain this. I guess I simply omitted the beginning sentence, ‘If any one saith’ and its ending, ‘let him be anathema’ in my consideration when commenting on it.

*CANON XIV.-If any one saith, that those who have been thus baptized when children, are, when they have grown up, to be asked whether they will ratify what their sponsors promised in their names when they were baptized; and that, in case they answer that they will not, they are to be left to their own will; and are not to be compelled meanwhile to a Christian life by any other penalty, save that they be excluded from the participation of the Eucharist, and of the other sacraments, until they repent; let him be anathema. *

I think the phrase ‘and are not to be compelled meanwhile to a Christian life by any other penalty’ is the main point of contention here.

It means the Church teaches that even if one denies one’s baptism or fails to confirm it as adult, one still has to abide by Christian life. The implication here is that once baptized, its mark is always there and one has to live according to its promise. Not ratifying and confirming it does not make one totally allowed to leave the Christian life altogether. If anything here, it is a positive thing, that there is still chance for that person in God’s judgment.

The wording is rather complicated as it uses negatives in articulating its message.

The usage of the word compelled is as in what jlhargus mentioned here (Lk 14:23) and the penalty is to come in (to the dinner):
[Lk14:23 Then the master said to the slave:
I was compelled by the fear of hell to turn to Christ when still a sinner. Every time I sin I am compelled by God’s grace to repent or go to hell.
There is no physical coercion, that is penalty, and there is no evidence of that in the history of the Church. The only penalty is for that person to live a Christian life. Burning people at stakes? Even if that was, it was not what this canon meant.

But feel free if there is any further comment.

God bless.

Reuben.
 
Hi Joe.
Yes, that was what I seemed to have in mind – that penalty constitutes coercion. There is no coercion. There is obviously none that could be identified as coercion.

I do not believe that canon XIV on baptism is coercion as explained in my posts. I just thought that if one denies one’s baptism, then one is excommunicated – that is unable to receive the sacraments but one is free to leave and live a life one chooses, but if he does not live a Christian life, let him be an anathema. This is different from what the OP implied and stated here. He was saying that there is coercion by the Church.

However, I might not understand the wording of the said canon properly and thus was corrected by St Francis. A canon lawyer would perhaps be in a better position to explain this. I guess I simply omitted the beginning sentence, ‘If any one saith’ and its ending, ‘let him be anathema’ in my consideration when commenting on it.

CANON XIV.-If any one saith, that those who have been thus baptized when children, are, when they have grown up, to be asked whether they will ratify what their sponsors promised in their names when they were baptized; and that, in case they answer that they will not, they are to be left to their own will; and are not to be compelled meanwhile to a Christian life by any other penalty, save that they be excluded from the participation of the Eucharist, and of the other sacraments, until they repent; let him be anathema.

I think the phrase ‘and are not to be compelled meanwhile to a Christian life by any other penalty’ is the main point of contention here.

It means the Church teaches that even if one denies one’s baptism or fails to confirm it as adult, one still has to abide by Christian life. The implication here is that once baptized, its mark is always there and one has to live according to its promise. Not ratifying and confirming it does not make one totally allowed to leave the Christian life altogether. If anything here, it is a positive thing, that there is still chance for that person in God’s judgment.

The wording is rather complicated as it uses negatives in articulating its message.

The usage of the word compelled is as in what jlhargus mentioned here (Lk 14:23) and the penalty is to come in (to the dinner):

There is no physical coercion, that is penalty, and there is no evidence of that in the history of the Church. The only penalty is for that person to live a Christian life. Burning people at stakes? Even if that was, it was not what this canon meant.

But feel free if there is any further comment.

God bless.

Reuben.
👍🙂
 
Just to reiterate what I said in post #49: everything in the second half of the canon is completely irrelevant. All of the talk about coercion or repentance is conditional on someone refusing to ratify their vows. But, the canon is saying that no one should ask them to do that, so proposing that any kind of action be taken is pointless.

So, this is another look at the canon with all that should be ignored, crossed out. It doesn’t matter. The most important part is in red and blue:

“CANON XIV.- If any one saith, that those who have been thus baptized when children, are, when they have grown up, to be asked whether they will ratify what their sponsors promised in their names when they were baptized; -]and that, in case they answer that they will not, they are to be left to their own will; and are not to be compelled meanwhile to a Christian life by any other penalty, save that they be excluded from the participation of the Eucharist, and of the other sacraments, until they repent;/-] let him be anathema.

If the first part (in blue) is what someone believes, then the rest is useless conjecture, because just questioning anyone, or insisting that they should restate their Baptismal vows as adults, is what is being condemned by the final phrase, “let him be anathema”. The second half of the canon that’s crossed out doesn’t matter.
 
I don’t think it’s the same at all. Actually I think Paul’s language was the same as Trent’s on those who deny coercion: “let him be anathema.”

In other words, Paul is calling for excommunication. But Trent goes beyond that, ironically calling for the excommunication of those who (like Paul?) stop at excommunicating heretics and don’t also use state power to coerce them.

Edwin
Given the secular sanctions of the day, calling for excommunication is fair enough, especially since someone knowingly teaching other than Church doctrine has in effect excommunicated themselves.

It doesn’t stop prayer being offered to God that they will re-join the fold, though.
 
Just to reiterate what I said in post #49: everything in the second half of the canon is completely irrelevant. All of the talk about coercion or repentance is conditional on someone refusing to ratify their vows. But, the canon is saying that no one should ask them to do that, so proposing that any kind of action be taken is pointless…
Sorry, but that’s not a convincing interpretation. You’re essentially saying that the Fathers of Trent added a whole set of phrases that have no bearing on reality.

What they are saying is “people baptized as infants should not be allowed to walk away from the faith without incurring punishment.” And the punishment involved is not just “spiritual” but temporal.

Historically, we know that the standard punishment at that time and for centuries before that was death by burning at the stake.

Trent is not mandating that particular punishment, thank God, but implicitly it is affirming the legitimacy of the practice, and it is condemning those who think no civil punishments should be imposed at all.

Edwin
 
I guess I simply omitted the beginning sentence, ‘If any one saith’ and its ending, ‘let him be anathema’ in my consideration when commenting on it.
You will get consistent heresy if you interpret Church teachings that way:D
It means the Church teaches that even if one denies one’s baptism or fails to confirm it as adult, one still has to abide by Christian life.
And is to be compelled by penalties other than exclusion from the sacraments.

The standard penalty in use at the time was burning at the stake, though this was only if the person obstinately refused to repent, and sometimes even then was commuted to life imprisonment or banishment or something of that sort. (Or they would strangle the person first and then burn the body, which I suppose deserves some credit:rolleyes:)
The wording is rather complicated as it uses negatives in articulating its message.
I don’t find it that complicated. But I suppose I’ve been reading this stuff longer than most people here.
There is no physical coercion, that is penalty, and there is no evidence of that in the history of the Church. The only penalty is for that person to live a Christian life.
Where on earth do you get that? I’m sorry, but you seem to be making this up because you very much want it to be true.
Burning people at stakes? Even if that was
It was. I’ts extremely well documented. People at the time were not ashamed of it or trying to hide it.
it was not what this canon meant.
When Trent says “anathema to anyone who says penalties shouldn’t be imposed” and the penalty being imposed by governments (in cases of hardened, impenitent, grave heresy) is burning at the stake, it’s quite reasonable to say that they were tacitly endorsing this penalty. They leave room for other penalties–they don’t mandate that penalty. But it would be very odd if they hadn’t been thinking, “By doing this we’re affirming that the way Catholic governments deal with heresy, through civil punishments up to and including death by burning, is the right way.”

Edwin

But feel free if there is any further comment.

God bless.

Reuben.
 
It was. I’ts extremely well documented. People at the time were not ashamed of it or trying to hide it.
There are differences of opinions here regarding this. You are of course entitled to yours.

People might be burnt on stakes and the church authorities could very well thought that they did the correct thing by what they thought following cannon XIV on baptism. That canon nevertheless did not state burning on stakes as the penalty. So who is making things up?
 
There are differences of opinions here regarding this. You are of course entitled to yours.

People might be burnt on stakes and the church authorities could very well thought that they did the correct thing by what they thought following cannon XIV on baptism. That canon nevertheless did not state burning on stakes as the penalty. So who is making things up?
So the only right penalty that we could think of is the wrongdoing of not living the Christian life, IOW, sinning.
 
[A formal heretic] is to be compelled by penalties other than exclusion from the sacraments.

The standard penalty in use at the time was burning at the stake, though this was only if the person obstinately refused to repent, and sometimes even then was commuted to life imprisonment or banishment or something of that sort.
First, I do not think death was the *standard penalty in these cases, I think it was exceptional. Second, the penalties you mention were civil penalties, and I think there is more evidence that the Canon is referring to ecclesiastical penalties than civil penalties.

One reason is, the context of this Canon, if I understand it correctly, is that it is centered inside a document that addresses how the Church deals with the Sacraments and with the people who depart from them. I think it would be strange to suddenly switch, for one Canon only, to talking about civil penalties, when the rest of the document discusses ecclesiastical material.

Do you think that is reasonable? Because I think it undercuts your interpretation: if this document is only talking about ecclesiastical penalties besides excommunication, then I don’t think it is possible that it is tacitly endorsing burning at the stake, because that was not an ecclesiastical penalty.

(In fact I believe the Twelfth Ecumenical Council forbade the use of death or tortuous ordeals as ecclesiastical penalties in Canon 18, and I think that became an official part of Canon Law from them on. Please let me know what you think of that.)
It was. I’ts extremely well documented. People at the time were not ashamed of it or trying to hide it.
The death penalty was sometimes used for heresy, and they didn’t seem to be ashamed of it. I agree with that part of your sentence. But I think the evidence suggests that they ordinarily used the death penalty Only on heresies that taught their adherents to reject the civil authorities. Thus, I don’t think the death penalty was used as commonly against heretics as I think you suppose. But that’s what I think. What do you think?
When Trent says “anathema to anyone who says penalties shouldn’t be imposed” and the penalty being imposed by governments (in cases of hardened, impenitent, grave heresy) is burning at the stake, it’s quite reasonable to say that they were tacitly endorsing this penalty.
As I said before, I think there is good evidence that the Canon is only referring to ecclesiastical penalties, and I think that excludes the death penalty, as well as your interpretation.
it would be very odd if they hadn’t been thinking, “By doing this we’re affirming that the way Catholic governments deal with heresy, through civil punishments up to and including death by burning, is the right way.”
I think it would be very reasonable to exclude that interpretation, because I don’t think they were referring to the way governments dealt with heresy at all.

I hope that helps. God bless!
 
I think we’re all missing the real point of this canon. If we only read the parts that I emphasized (red/italics/bold), I think the real point of it is seen more easily. If I put it together on its own, it would look like this:

Why the Church created this canon is because there seemed to be an overabundance of people questioning the Church’s practice of Baptizing babies at that time (oh wait… they still do!). This canon eliminates any debate within the Church about whether or not those Baptisms are valid, and states that no one has a right to demand that any member of the Church should be required to retake those same vows, when they grow up. So, the Church is really protecting Her members from being questioned about their faith, and not trying to find a way to punish them if they dare to have any doubts. JMHO

As Emily Litella would say, “That’s different. Nevermind!” 😃
I need to address a couple of issues here. First, as Contarini already stated, the portions that you’re crossing out or choosing not to highlight in red are not just filler words with no bearing in reality. Yes, perhaps it would be inadvisable (to the mind of a Reformation-era Catholic) to present ample opportunity for someone to choose to reject or leave Catholicism. But whether or not that opportunity is imprudently offered by another Catholic, the issue of temporal penalties for those who make such a choice is a very real issue of Church authority- and while this here does not go so far as to support capital punishment for heresy alone, it does affirm a certain Magisterial legitimacy in the use of temporal (not just spiritual) punishment and a certain targeted coercion of those baptized Catholic, specifically when they would Otherwise choose not to be Catholic anymore.

The other issue I want to address is the issue of the site I chose- it really did not occur to me that I would be able to put search terms into Google for Trent that would cause a low-key Sedevecantist-adjacent thing to pop first. I will admit that I’m mostly sorry because it was an unforced error that put a red herring in play, but on principle I do make an effort to cite sources that are not deliberately antagonistic to y’all.

At any rate, I want to make it up to you. I have another link to share with you, this is from the Catholic Encyclopedia at newadvent.org. I trust this is more of a consistently approved source. Here is the link. newadvent.org/cathen/11703a.htm

This also has to do with coercion. I’m going to task you with unraveling a different set of quotes. Please consult your angel friend once more and let’s see which things you highlight and which things you cross out.

"The Church claims to carry a message or rather a command from God and to be God’s only messenger. In point of fact it is only within recent years, when toleration is supposed to have become a dogma, that the other “champions of Revelation” have abandoned their similar claims. That they should abandon their right to command allegiance is a natural consequence of Protestantism; whereas it is the Church’s claim to be the accredited and infallible ambassador of God which justifies her apparent inconsistency. Such intolerance, however, is not the same as persecution, by which we understand the unlawful exercise of coercion. Every corporation lawfully constituted has the right to coerce its subjects within due limits. And though the Church exercises that right for the most part by spiritual sanctions, she has never relinquished the right to use other means. Before examining this latter right to physical coercion, there must be introduced the important distinction between pagans and Christians. Regularly, force has not been employed against pagan or Jew: “For what have I to do to judge them that are without?” (1 Corinthians 5:12); see JEWS AND JUDAISM: Judaism and Church Legislation.

Instances of compulsory conversions such as have occurred at different periods of the Church’s history must be ascribed to the misplaced zeal of autocratic individuals. But the Church does claim the right to coerce her own subjects. Here again, however, a distinction must be made. The non-Catholic Christians of our day are, strictly speaking, her subjects; but in her legislation she treats them as if they were not her subjects. The “Ne temere”, e.g., of Pius X (1907), recognizes the marriages of Protestants as valid, though not contracted according to Catholic conditions: and the laws of abstinence are not considered to be binding on Protestants. So, with regard to her right to use coercion, the Church only exercises her authority over those whom she considers personally and formally apostates. A modern Protestant is not in the same category with the Albigenses or Wyclifites. These were held to be personally responsible for their apostasy; and the Church enforced her authority over them: It is true that in many cases the heretics were rebels against the State also; but the Church’s claim to exercise coercion is not confined to such cases of social disorder. And what is more, her purpose was not only to protect the faith of the orthodox, but also to punish the apostates. Formal apostasy was then looked upon as treason against God — a much more heinous crime than treason against a civil ruler, which, until recent times, was punished with great severity. (See APOSTASY; HERESY.) It was a poisoning of the life of the soul in others (St. Thomas Aquinas, II-II, Q. xi, articles 3, 4.)

There can be no doubt, therefore, that the Church claimed the right to use physical coercion against formal apostates. Not, of course, that she would exercise her authority in the same way today, even if there were a Catholic State in which other Christians were personally and formally apostates. She adapts her discipline to the times and circumstances in order that it may fulfil its salutary purpose."
 
There are differences of opinions here regarding this. You are of course entitled to yours.

People might be burnt on stakes and the church authorities could very well thought that they did the correct thing by what they thought following cannon XIV on baptism. That canon nevertheless did not state burning on stakes as the penalty. So who is making things up?
I’m not making anything up. I have said over and over again that the canons do not mandate burning at the stake. But they defend the practice of civil penalties and condemn those who reject it. And we are in no doubt, historically, as to what the standard punishment for an impenitent heretic was in the West between about 1200 and 1700, roughly speaking.

The idea that they have no punishment in mind except “the punishment of not living a Christian life” is absurd. That would be exactly what they condemn as “leaving them to their own will.”

Edwin
 
I’m not making anything up. I have said over and over again that the canons do not mandate burning at the stake. But they defend the practice of civil penalties and condemn those who reject it.
Huh? Who were they and what has this canon (XIV on Baptism) got to do with it? We are discussing about this particular canon (XIV on Baptism) not what they did outside this canon. Burning on stakes is not mandated, rightly, as you said. Supporting the act of people burning heretics on stakes does not make this canon endorses it.
And we are in no doubt, historically, as to what the standard punishment for an impenitent heretic was in the West between about 1200 and 1700, roughly speaking.

The idea that they have no punishment in mind except “the punishment of not living a Christian life” is absurd. That would be exactly what they condemn as “leaving them to their own will.”
Since physical punishment is not stated as the penalty, it is quite reasonable, certainly not absurd, to reason that the penalty is something spiritual, meaning sin. They would sin if they leave according to their will and do not live the Christian life. That at least is true. The Church always maintains that the fullness of life is to be found in the Church, living it.
 
I’m not making anything up. I have said over and over again that the canons do not mandate burning at the stake. But they defend the practice of civil penalties and condemn those who reject it. And we are in no doubt, historically, as to what the standard punishment for an impenitent heretic was in the West between about 1200 and 1700, roughly speaking.

The idea that they have no punishment in mind except “the punishment of not living a Christian life” is absurd. That would be exactly what they condemn as “leaving them to their own will.”

Edwin
As of now (unless you can help me form the thought in a better way) I would be inclined to summarize the issue thusly: The Reformation was a great calamity to the Catholic Church, the Council of Trent was primarily convened in order to do something about it, and one of the main issues at hand is What shall we do about these baptized-Catholics who want to leave the Church? Do we just let them go? Do we allow them to make that choice?

And then Trent basically says no, by means of penalties mostly spiritual but also temporal, and by the unique authority of Christ’s Church.

Is that a fair summation, or could that be tightened up a bit?

I want to ask you about one other specific thing as well. There was something on a less-eminently-citable source that mentioned Desiderius Erasmus- who was generally opposed to killing heretics, saying death is poor medicine for a sick person- but not normally opposed to other temporal punishments, even when the heretic was not a violent one. There was one thing he wrote, however, in his Paraphrases on the Gospels, I think it was the portion where he dealt with Mark. In this, he laid out a scenario in which a recalcitrant dissenter has been thrice reasoned with and pleaded with in a formal setting, and he simply refuses to be reclaimed as a part of the flock. So perhaps at a certain point he should be left in his sickness. Now, the partial details that I heard from the not-so-verifiable source was that his tentative support for the mercy and tolerance (which we so readily expect today) was met with a firestorm of criticism, and some Catholics of great stature who were otherwise inclined to respect the work of Erasmus were sharply critical of the idea that a heretic could just walk away without any temporal, physical punishment. Are you familiar with any of that story, and if so would you be able to point me in the direction of any reliable sources that would let me see exactly what critical things were said about Erasmus in this particular situation? That may have been a rather important exchanging of words which ultimately formed the controversy responsible for prompting a particular anathema at Trent.
 
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