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The Catholic Church and religious coercion- the smoking gun 2
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bjryman
Guest
Let’s not forget the difference between infallible doctrinal teaching as well. If the rest of the rules and regulations are the current teaching, the current view of divine revelation working in our little daily lives, but not infallible…then…placing a hard punishment on disagreement becomes highly suspect.
This is a touchy subject because we are taught both that 1. There are areas of teaching that are not infallible and 2. That the compendium of all those teachings are to be considered “correct and true” by the Church. In other words, we are told that the penalty is equal if we wish to be members of the Catholic Church. ???
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ffg
Guest
Oh of course Picky,
My memory isn’t the best, but we may have hit this subject in our many subject conversation (which I wish I could have continued, but I was spending too much time away).
I’m not going to defend other people’s sins.
It is sad that the sins of x number of people reflect on an organization. But organizations are run by people, so sinner’s are a reality that we can’t avoid.
If we lived our lives trying to avoid things or entities because of other people’s sins, we would be alone, unfed, naked, in the woods living under a branch. While under that branch we would be hoping that particular section of the world was never visited by anyone, ever. So as to not ever be in contact with a sinner, or their footprints.
Then we might remember the label fits us too and we have the ability to learn from those footprints and start walking again.
The Church being the ‘Hospital for Sinners’ is all the same true for the human hierarchy as it is for the rest of us.
Take care,
Mike
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bjryman
Guest
Exactly, and at any given time throughout history, it is those sinners, those common men, who may be telling the rest what is true and correct, while continuing to act in their deficient ways behind the scenes.
This is why caution needs to be practiced.
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ffg
Guest
I have a question for folks.
Without re-reading the whole thread, I’m sure the thread has experienced discussion on different definitions or effects for / if coercion.
In re-reading the OP, it seems the smoking gun opinion is set ablaze, but I don’t see an opinion of what it means for the Church, unless I missed it.
For those interested in answering -
Do you see the intent to conclude the CC has a sword on which to fall?
Or other? (clarification / apology / admission of fault, etc.)
I was going to lay an argument down that - if the intent is to show the CC has a sword on which to fall, then that would be Christianity’s sword.
However, I don’t want to exclude the possibility that this is not the intent.
For those that prefer open questions - What does the consideration of a smoking gun in the CC mean to you? (Specify the effects)
Thank you,
Mike
Without re-reading the whole thread, I’m sure the thread has experienced discussion on different definitions or effects for / if coercion.
In re-reading the OP, it seems the smoking gun opinion is set ablaze, but I don’t see an opinion of what it means for the Church, unless I missed it.
For those interested in answering -
Do you see the intent to conclude the CC has a sword on which to fall?
Or other? (clarification / apology / admission of fault, etc.)
I was going to lay an argument down that - if the intent is to show the CC has a sword on which to fall, then that would be Christianity’s sword.
However, I don’t want to exclude the possibility that this is not the intent.
For those that prefer open questions - What does the consideration of a smoking gun in the CC mean to you? (Specify the effects)
Thank you,
Mike
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Picky_Picky
Guest
I think the fact that many Catholics defended the church by saying, mistakenly, that the canon did not envisage coercion of apostates (insofar as someone refusing to ratify baptismal vows made for him in his infancy is an apostate) showed how many people were uneasy at what this canon says. Moreover it has been argued that this coercive power still exists* although the church no longer subcontracts coercion to the state **. Of course if people become Catholics knowing that this power to coerce them exists, one might argue that this is a matter for them only. That hardly applies in the case of the baptised infant, however.
Actually since I can hardly imagine that this power to coerce could be used today, at least in an open society, it causes me no concern.
** firstthings.com/article/2012/08/conscience-and-coercion
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ffg
Guest
Thanks Picky,
I do think there is a confusion with the word coercion because it comes across as ‘forcing’ as opposed to ‘forceful’ (act vs intent). Everyone knows people can dissent on a rule, so confusion ensues.
One could argue the coercive nature of Church rule x anytime, not just canon 14.
It seems a rule by definition exists to channel an intent. Seems normal for a rule to be viewed by the intended audience as forceful.
I like to get home alive, so I’m glad most others see the red light’s coercive nature through the potential penalties.
What is the intent of pointing out the rule’s forceful nature?
Is intent of this smoking gun to say - because of this rule the CC’s house should fall and people run for the hills?
Or other?
If the intent is the CC should fall, I would put forth an argument that it is a Christianity collapse.
Regardless of intent, we could circle around to a cold gun, since rules have a coercive nature (forceful).
With regard to today vs. yester-year, I’m sure if we were living in the mid-1500’s and thinking about riding the new wave, we might feel the impact of the forceful nature, perhaps physically, possibly through the sins of the hierarchy.
But that sin still wouldn’t be able to bend our freedom to dissent, even if dissention is done in silence. Which would be the same freedom as today.
Probably catch up next week.
Take care,
Mike
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Telstar
Guest
This law is still on the books in Boston, Massachusetts:“It Is Illegal To Walk Across Boston Common Without A Shotgun In Case Of Bears.”
So, I guess the Big Bad Bruins had better watch out!
So, I guess the Big Bad Bruins had better watch out!
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GiveTheTruth
Guest
This thread has been very enjoyable to read. Only a church founded and guided by Christ can survive so much controversy and scrutiny. I thank God that He has brought me home to the Catholic Church after many years of being away and being involved with protestant evangelicalism. At the end of the day the only alternative, for me, would be the Greek Orthodox. The Catholic Church really does need to do a better job of catechizing it’s parishioners, though.
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benhur
Guest
Hi Mike
Do not think coerciveness was the full question, but the level of it. Another words, does the canon indicate indirectly (smoking gun) that there was much more “forcefullness” than just barring from sacraments.
No, that would be over the top and and avoid at looking at what was and is in doctrine and practice.
But at worst it might be used just as simple us vs them. At best it could humble the CC and learn from "us’’ and help bridge the gap.
Good of you to say. Actually the “sin” carried on past the 1500’s (the P’s were guilty also). Separation of church and state was still far off.
Not sure where that fits in. But yes, there is a difference in believing in something and acting or even teaching something. Not sure your statement is cynical a bit. It should not be about just rocking the boat or not, but about really caring for each individual sheep and what they really believe. Another words, we should care to comply (not rock boat) and comply properly (not rock the boat because we really do believe as we should). Maybe cynical is wrong word for your statement , and might just be my own. Sometimes I have thought the CC allows a lot of “diversity” as long as you do not rock the structure that is the CC. Maybe as P’s we have less structure and hence care more about being equally convinced on all or most things. As you kind of said about “falling”, Protestantism will not fall because of a variant teaching. I think Catholicism is more rigid and must maintain most of their teachings or at least feels it must…Sorry I ramble
Blessings
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Jerusha
Guest
Whew!! I just finished reading the whole thing! 
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benhur
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What ? Post #588 or 588 posts ? :tiphat::bowdown2::coolinoff::ballspin: :whacky::compcoff:Whew!! I just finished reading the whole thing!
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Jerusha
Guest
All 588 posts. Now I have a bunch of PDF’s and bookmarks to read. And re-read CCC. I think I am gearing up for more of my writing project.
It was a nice vacation, though.
It was a nice vacation, though.
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benhur
Guest
pray tell, what project ?
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Jerusha
Guest
Writing a book where this discussion is relevant. I was reluctant to explore the subject in depth.
No more details on it, lest we get another invasion from the opposition.
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GiveTheTruth
Guest
Jerusha,
The Lord be with you writing your book. I’m sure you’ll make us proud. You have the fullness of the faith on your side.
The Lord be with you writing your book. I’m sure you’ll make us proud. You have the fullness of the faith on your side.
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benhur
Guest
Yes, blessings on your venture. Remember, monarchical theocracy is the best form of government and will be the eternal one, but not just yet for obvious reasons.
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bjryman
Guest
Yes, one of my main concerns is your last sentence. My wife of 43 years was raised a faithful Baptist, and converted to CC just several years ago when she came to her own realization that the core teachings of CC and P about salvation are essentially equivalent. The final “issues” were those things that CC is rigid about in non-core teachings, and rubrics, rules, etc. Most of our P friends always refer to statements like "yes we are loosely affiliated with ABC or SBC or whatever. They strive to maintain this slight distance from their hierarchy, even to the point when a few disagree, off they go to start another church. Meanwhile, we Catholics are normally urged to “trust the Magisterium”.
But once one gets by the minutiae of the process details, the teachings are similar and solid.
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Vico
Guest
I do not know what Baptists believe as a group of if it is individual. Do Baptists:
- believe that grace is imparted by the sacraments and have more than the two of Baptism and Eucharist?
- baptize infants?
- believe that The Blessed Virgin had the stain of original sin?
- believe the Eucharist is actually Christ not a symbol of Christ?
- pray to the saints for intercession?
- hold that intercessory prayers (including to Saints) are helpful to the faithfully departed in purgatory?
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