The Catholic Church created Mary?

[VociMike]

In that neither our Lord Jesus nor the Apostles spoke of Mary in anything other than normal terms, that is they never said she was sinless, immaculately conceived or assumed into heaven, it is indisputable that these beliefs in the Catholic Church arose later (with conclusive declaration over 1800 years later).

How is it that you claim to know everything that Christ and the apostles ever said? It is a super-human claim, you understand?

 

[Abira]

How is it that you claim to know everything that Christ and the apostles ever said? It is a super-human claim, you understand?

I think you must know that he means that nothing has been recorded where anyone said these things.

I would also add that if these things were so important then it would have helped me out massively if they were preached more openly during biblical times and recorded… I would find it so much easier to understand and come to terms with this stuff… I’m finding it a barrier that’s been really hard to start moving.

S

 

[mlldrl]

It seems to make this an unnecessary stumbling block for other Christians who are examining Catholicism.

Padreden,

With all there is to ‘examine’ regarding Catholicism I can’t understand why so many start their journey with our Blessed Mother. Strikes me as placing the cart before the horse, so to speak.

One thing I’ve heard from converts is to put Mary on the back burner. Dive in to things like the Eucharist and the other Sacraments first. Along the way as Jesus to help you understand why Catholics love His mother so much. I’m certain it will help.

Lastly, have you heard of John Henry Newman? He was an Anglican priest as well who took an honest look in to Catholicism. While he isn’t a canonized saint I’m certain he’s in the presence of our Lord…I’m sure he’d be a good intercessor for you while you take a closer look at the Church.

God Bless,
M

 

[Ghosty]

Thanks very much M. I actually read your first citation yesterday. That leads to my next question. If indeed Mary didn’t need to be immaculately conceived (for example, due to other doctrines that might hinge on this one), why was it necessary to make this a dogma that Catholic Christians are obliged to obey. It seems to make this an unnecessary stumbling block for other Christians who are examining Catholicism.

The best explaination I’ve heard, though it’s not explicitely laid out in the definition of the dogma itself, is that the Catholic Church needed to reaffirm to the innate dignity of humanity. The 1800s is when the attacks on the dignity of humanity really picked up steam, making us into material objects with either no meaning (materialism), or resources to be used by those who were stronger (nationalism, communism, Nietsche’s “Will to Power” teachings, ect). In the face of this growing attack on the traditional Catholic understanding of humanity, the teaching of Mary’s purity was dogmatized. What’s important to understand is that her purity is not exceptional in the sense of it being inhuman, but exceptional in that she was fully human but maintained the fullness of human dignity, not wallowing in the mud of sin like the rest of us. She is the very image of true humanity, the dignity that lies at the heart of every person and which simply needs Grace to be manifested.

So the dogma is about what humans are, and what we’re capable of being, most eminently in the example of Mary. Again, this isn’t a direct statement in the dogma, but it is precisely that aspect of the Faith which is being illustrated by it.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Truthstalker]

Padreden,

With all there is to ‘examine’ regarding Catholicism I can’t understand why so many start their journey with our Blessed Mother. Strikes me as placing the cart before the horse, so to speak.

One thing I’ve heard from converts is to put Mary on the back burner. Dive in to things like the Eucharist and the other Sacraments first. Along the way as Jesus to help you understand why Catholics love His mother so much. I’m certain it will help.

Lastly, have you heard of John Henry Newman? He was an Anglican priest as well who took an honest look in to Catholicism. While he isn’t a canonized saint I’m certain he’s in the presence of our Lord…I’m sure he’d be a good intercessor for you while you take a closer look at the Church.

God Bless,
M

One reason so many start with Mary is that non-Catholics are absolutely convinced that if anything at all is wrong with Catholicism, it has to do with teachings centered around Mary. Find the low-hanging fruit, they think, and quickly put to death the insane theological obsessions of Catholics: it must be blatantly obviously wrong, an easy target.

Another reason is that so much in Catholic theology can be understood in understanding Mary: predestination and free-will, intercession of the saints, faith, obedience, discipleship, self-denial, love,grace, thrusting Jesus in prime place, probably some other things.

Another reason is that Mary herself seems to be active, although very often in the background, doing things. “Mary our Mother” is not a misnomer. Very few children start off learning the intricacies of household finance; instead they start off in the loving embrace of their Mother. This is a concept that can send Protestants screaming, but many, many Catholics attest to it.

 

[TheApologist]

I think a reason that many Protestants disagree with our Marian doctrine is that they think Mary had an active role in each doctrine.
Think about it:
The Immaculate Conception-some think that Mary was sinless of her own accord…thinking we worship her as a god
The Assumption-some think Mary ascended and wasn’t assumed, they think Mary went to heaven under her own power, not God’s
Mary as the Medatrix of All Graces-they think Mary was the creator and giver of those graves…in a sense…Mary was like a…what’s it called…anyway she was the person through which Jesus came to world and so was the person through which grace came, not the person from which grace came

 

[VociMike]

I think you must know that he means that nothing has been recorded where anyone said these things.

Yes, but Catholicism is not sola Scriptura. The scriptures are a component of the Church, not the other way around, and every inquirer into the Church should understand this.

I would also add that if these things were so important then it would have helped me out massively if they were preached more openly during biblical times and recorded… I would find it so much easier to understand and come to terms with this stuff… I’m finding it a barrier that’s been really hard to start moving.

Why is it such a barrier to believe men who now speak with the authority and guidance of God, and not a barrier to believe men who once wrote with the authority and guidance of God? It is an artificial distinction. God did not run out of power and grace to guide the Church after the last apostle died. I repeat, this distinction between the writers of scripture and the magisterium of the Church is an artificial distinction. It is a psychological barrier only - strong, yes, but without objective merit.

 

[Abira]

Why is it such a barrier to believe men who now speak with the authority and guidance of God, and not a barrier to believe men who once wrote with the authority and guidance of God? It is an artificial distinction. God did not run out of power and grace to guide the Church after the last apostle died. I repeat, this distinction between the writers of scripture and the magisterium of the Church is an artificial distinction. It is a psychological barrier only - strong, yes, but without objective merit.

I think in terms of my upbringing…my thouhgt process would be as follows:

if they are so key, centraland important, why does God not leave me a written record. I thought this especially when I was more of a Bible only person lol, even though I’m protestant I do not believe in Sola Scriptura but I do see what a barrier this is for people as it was for me.

This psychological barrier is very real… I read somewhere someone giving the advice to study Catholicism without Mary for a while. I think that is good advice although I felt i had to start with her as that is where my barriers lie.

Take care, S

 

[TheApologist]

The scriptures are a component of the Church, not the other way around.

Why is it such a barrier to believe men who now speak with the authority and guidance of God, and not a barrier to believe men who once wrote with the authority and guidance of God?..God did not run out of power and grace to guide the Church after the last apostle died.

Those are really cool ways to put it…

 

[LilyM]

I think in terms of my upbringing…my thouhgt process would be as follows:

if they are so key, centraland important, why does God not leave me a written record. I thought this especially when I was more of a Bible only person lol, even though I’m protestant I do not believe in Sola Scriptura but I do see what a barrier this is for people as it was for me.

This psychological barrier is very real… I read somewhere someone giving the advice to study Catholicism without Mary for a while. I think that is good advice although I felt i had to start with her as that is where my barriers lie.

Take care, S

But why is a written record more authoritative? For the vast majority of human history over 90% of people could neither read nor write - it’s only been in the last 150 years or so that the case has been otherwise. So humans were most always relying on what OTHERS told them the Scripture said.

Does anyone ever really read huge chunks of the Bible to another without some sort of comment, interpretation, teaching? Most commonly it’s just the opposite - they start by arguing a theological or philosophical point and then quote whatever passages of Scripture seem to support their case.

 

[Abira]

But why is a written record more authoritative? …

Does anyone ever really read huge chunks of the Bible to another without some sort of comment, interpretation, teaching? Most commonly it’s just the opposite - they start by arguing a theological or philosophical point and then quote whatever passages of Scripture seem to support their case.

I think that my view would be: why did God not make this record less open to misinterpretation… and I expect that many will now say that all words can be interpreted, and i’d agree…but aty least if something is committed to some kind of solid record, i would think: ok it’s written, I must come to terms with this…

whereas right now I’m thinking: why do they believe these things, are they right…there’s nothing in MY tradition… ie… nothing written in the Bible…there’s nothing that transcends our traditions, so how important can it be???

These aren’t really questions, but it’s just to ilustrate where a lot of protestants are coming form in the way they look at this issue.

S

 

[kentuckyliz]

The Protoevangelion - the First Gospel Gen 3:15 - God says there’s enmity between the serpent (Satan) and the Woman who is to come (Mary), between the serpent’s seed and her seed (Gk spermatos)!

Satan hates Mary. Why? He can’t get anywhere with her! He can’t get her to commit personal sin, and she is totally unavailable to him because Christ saved her from original sin.

Rev. 12 - This enmity and the war between them is told to us. Michael the Archangel is on her side! This is the archangel that cast the fallen angels out of heaven. He’s a pretty powerful dude. His image is usually of him stomping Satan and plunging a long spear through him. God totally protects Mary and her child–the red dragon that is Satan can’t get anywhere near her, even with the flood of original sin. God keeps Mary TOTALLY SEPARATED from Satan. She clearly has divine protection.

Luke 1 - Gabriel comes to her.
Haire, kechairethomene!
Hail! – the greeting to a monarch or ruler, as in Hail, Caesar, or Hail, King of the Jews!
She who is full of grace (due to a past event that results in an ongoing and present condition) (indicated by the Gk verb tense)

When you are FULL of GRACE, there is no room for sin. Throw some sin in there, and the grace level goes down. LOL

What happens when people meet angels?
They fall flat on their face
They worship the angel thinking it’s God
They realize their sinfulness
They try to resist the call
They doubt and are struck dumb

Mary does NONE of these. There is no sinfulness or doubt in her that makes her grovel, argue, doubt, or contend. Her response to an angel presence is UNIQUE.

The Holy Spirit overshadows her - a New Creation - echoes Genesis creation account - the spirit hovering over the waters.

Then she goes and visits Elizabeth her kinswoman. She arrives. What happens?

Nothing extraordinary. Yet.

Then Mary speaks a greeting and heaven comes crashing down to earth!

Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit! (My personal life scripture, Luke 1:41) --Remember, this is before Pentecost! The Holy Spirit hadn’t been poured out on all flesh yet. Mary had experienced the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit at the Annunciation, just a little while ago, and now Elizabeth is filled with the Holy Spirit!

Who am I that the Mother of my Lord would come to me?
Mary is the Mother of God! Elizabeth just called her that.

Blessed is she who BELIEVED! --Yes, she believed and it was reckoned to her as righteousness! As Paul would say! Don’t overlook Mary’s FAITH.

Elizabeth cries out, Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb!

Mary prays her Magnificat: Henceforth, all generations shall call me blessed. Are you fulfilling that prophecy?

Why don’t you love your mother?

Rev 12 says she is the mother of all who keep the commandments of God and bear witness to Jesus Christ. She is the mother of all Christians!

Rev 12 also shows her as bodily in heaven with a crown. Assumption, Coronation. Queen Mother.

We Christians venerated relics from the beginning. There are no relics of Mary! Her tomb is empty! Now that would be one tomb and set of relics we’d be fighting to get at if they existed, but they don’t. Mary’s house is in Ephesus, where she lived with John the beloved disciple to whom she was given by Jesus from the cross (and to all of us beloved disciples!). John knew her well from daily life…and saw her glorified in his Revelation!

Ponder Simeon’s prophecy to her at the Presentation–that her own heart (soul) too would be pierced by a sword, so that the thoughts of men might be revealed. Of course, on the Cross, Christ’s was literally, but her empathy was so strong, untainted by sin, that her heart was pierced too.

This Queen Mother intercedes for her children with her Son, the King. She sees our needs without us having to ask. She brings our needs to the attention of her son. He cannot resist her request. This pattern of her intercession is shown in the wedding feast at Cana. Our part is to Do whatever He tells you! So pray, ask her intercession, but grab the water jar because Jesus works through the hands of his human assistants!

–So, why would Scripture teach us all these great things about Mary if they were not important? Don’t be so fixed on doctrine that you miss the LOVE! With God, love is not a zero sum game. Loving Mary doesn’t take away from loving Christ, but makes your love grow ever larger. We do not have the power to honor Mary as much or more than God did. When we love Mary, we imitate Christ, who fulfilled the commandment perfectly and with divine power: “Honor [Hb word GLORIFY] thy father and mother, that your days may be long in the land which the LORD your God gives you.” – the only commandment with a benefit-promise attached. The promised land is now Heaven.

 

[Todd_Easton]

Todd Easton;2032660:

An early indirect reference to the purity of the Virgin Mary can be found in the writings of St. Irenaeus of Lyons about A.D. 189.
"and the Son of God the Son of man (the pure One

**opening purely that pure womb **which regenerates men unto God, and which He Himself made pure); (Against Heresies, book 4, chap. 33, paragraph 11.)

This “early indirect reference to the purity of the Virgin Mary” seems to say that our Lord Jesus “Himself made pure” Mary’s womb. This would be very consistent with Jesus’ earthly life wherein he had no apprehension of contracting leprosy by touch (Matthew 8:3) or ceremonial uncleanness from touching the dead (Mark 5:41). It is what comes out of man that makes us unclean, not what goes into us. The idea that Mary had to be immaculate so as not to spiritually taint Jesus stands contrary to these teachings he gave us.

With all due respect, this word from Irenaeus seems to me to substantiate the idea that Jesus, by virtue of his presence in her womb, made the Blessed Virgin pure, rather than make the case for modern Marian doctrine.

Padreden

The Catholic Church does not teach that Mary had to be immaculate of necessity but only that it was fitting that she be, just as the tablets of the Old Covenant could have been carried in any old wooden box but it was fitting that the wooden box they were carried in was covered inside and out with gold. St. Irenaeus says that the Son of God made Mary’s womb pure, and by extention her whole being, but he does not say when this purification took place. That the Son of God made Mary pure at her conception, as Catholic believe, is not in any way ruled out by the statement of St. Irenaeus.

This is similar to when the angel Gabriel addressed Mary as kecharitomene, highly favored one. (Luke 1:28) There is no indication when Mary was highly favored, only that it happened in the past. Thus, the angel’s statement does not in any why rule out the Catholic belief that Mary was highly favored at the moment of her conception.