The Catholic Church is just another denomination

[MrS]

I don’t understand why you think I don’t recognize this. It seems to me that my separated brethren do not wish to be reunited, because they do not want to embrace the tenents of the faith that were rejected by their forefathers.

Probably the most concise statement here in some time… thank you for the direct, honest, and truthful statement of fact.

 

[mark_a]

First, she may not be pronouncing on whether there used to be life on Mars, but she did pronounce that the Earth was at the center of the universe and labeled as heretics those that taught otherswise.

Not exactly an area of faith and morals. The Catholic Church has a lot of bad history because it has the most history.

Second, the church has no business claiming to be the source of “faith and morals essential to living the full Christian life.”

Faith has always been and always will be a matter of personal involvement. Morals, on the other hand, is not. Faith is most often tried through moral values.

Which of the Catholic Church’s moral teachings do you disagree with?

This is the work of the Holy Spirit, not the Catholic Church. Not any church. The church is at best an interpretor of these things. Further one does not need to be a part of the Catholic Church to receive the Holy Spirit’s guidance enabling one to interpret the Bible’s teaching on these matters.

Don’t make me bring out the artificial birth control/abortificient/abortion paddle.

Those who are non-Catholic and missing part of the truth, are not missing the truth because they are non-Catholic,

I can’t argue with you on this one, if they are well grounded in the moral values. Who cares if Baptists think dancing is sinful? Not dancing won’t send them to hell. Never drinking won’t damn anyone for eternity.

they are missing it because they are human, and perfect truth and perfect understanding of God’s revelation will only take place in our lives when we are given the gift of seeing him as he really is. This takes place in heaven, not on earth.(See 1 Corinthians 13:12).

Sounds pretty Catholic to me. That’s why the Church teaches that God predestins no one to hell.

 

[jmcrae]

First, she may not be pronouncing on whether there used to be life on Mars, but she did pronounce that the Earth was at the center of the universe and labeled as heretics those that taught otherswise. Of course the really were heretics because they taught contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church. But they were also right. So, sometimes what the Catholic Church labels as heresy is in fact truth.

Oh, yay, the Galileo myth.

My brother, who is a physicist (he does theoretical physics, and he has done astrophysics, although it’s not his main specialty), has told me that if Galileo had done to the Academy of Sciences what he did to the Catholic Church, he would have been bounced out the door and down the stairs on his head, and his work would never have been published - meaning that nobody today would ever have heard of him.

(And does it not strike you as rather odd, after all, that someone who was “suppressed” so “thoroughly” by the all-powerful Church is such a well-known household name today?)

Second, the church has no business claiming to be the source of “faith and morals essential to living the full Christian life.” This is the work of the Holy Spirit, not the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church was founded by Christ, for these very purposes. That was the whole point of the Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20) , was to promulgate the teachings, commandments, and Sacraments of Christ accurately and thoroughly to the entire world. (That is, in other words, to be the source of faith and morals.)

The Holy Spirit was given to the Catholic Church at the first Christian Pentecost, which was on what date? Was it October 31, 1517?

We know from the writings of St. Irenaeus that Jesus died on the Cross on March 25th, 33 AD, meaning that He rose from the dead on March 27th 33 AD - add 50 days, and Pentecost of that year was on the 15th of May, 33 AD.

More than a millenium before the Reformation was even a glimmer in Martin Luther’s eye, and indeed, roughly about four centuries before Martin Luther’s most distant ancestors (the Vandals) sacked the city of Rome the first time.

 

[jmcrae]

So, if I came to your church tomorrow and desired to take the eucharist without any change in my present views would I be equally welcome to partake the the eucharist with you?

No. Partaking of each other’s Eucharist would falsely signify a unity that does not currently exist.

If so, then I stand corrected and you have not pushed us away. If not, …

St. Teresa, in her book The Way of Perfection (which is a diary of her spirituality that was written for her Confessor and, under his approval, for the sisters in her Order), writes, "Of the reason which moved me to found this convent in such strict observance.

When this convent was originally founded, for the reasons set down in the book which, as I say, I have already written, and also because of certain wonderful revelations by which the Lord showed me how well He would be served in this house, it was not my intention that there should be so much austerity in external matters, nor that it should have no regular income: on the contrary, I should have liked there to be no possibility of want. I acted, in short, like the weak and wretched woman that I am, although I did so with good intentions and not out of consideration for my own comfort.

At about this time there came to my notice the harm and havoc that were being wrought in France by these Lutherans and the way in which their unhappy sect was increasing. This troubled me very much, and, as though I could do anything, or be of any help in the matter, I wept before the Lord and entreated Him to remedy this great evil. I felt that I would have laid down a thousand lives to save a single one of all the souls that were being lost there."

Again - it was the Protestants who left the Church, and who subsequently felt “called by God” to burn down all of Europe.

If they “feel rejected” after all that, then what are we supposed to say?

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Oh, yay, the Galileo myth.

My brother, who is a physicist (he does theoretical physics, and he has done astrophysics, although it’s not his main specialty), has told me that if Galileo had done to the Academy of Sciences what he did to the Catholic Church, he would have been bounced out the door and down the stairs on his head, and his work would never have been published - meaning that nobody today would ever have heard of him.

(And does it not strike you as rather odd, after all, that someone who was “suppressed” so “thoroughly” by the all-powerful Church is such a well-known household name today?)

The Catholic Church was founded by Christ, for these very purposes. That was the whole point of the Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20) , was to promulgate the teachings, commandments, and Sacraments of Christ accurately and thoroughly to the entire world. (That is, in other words, to be the source of faith and morals.)

The Holy Spirit was given to the Catholic Church at the first Christian Pentecost, which was on what date? Was it October 31, 1517?

We know from the writings of St. Irenaeus that Jesus died on the Cross on March 25th, 33 AD, meaning that He rose from the dead on March 27th 33 AD - add 50 days, and Pentecost of that year was on the 15th of May, 33 AD.

More than a millenium before the Reformation was even a glimmer in Martin Luther’s eye, and indeed, roughly about four centuries before Martin Luther’s most distant ancestors (the Vandals) sacked the city of Rome the first time.

I have never done any serious study of physics; I’ll take your brother’s word for it with respect to physics. But I’ll not take your word for it with respect to theology. Yoiur interpretation of the Great Commission is an insult to Christians everywhere.

Christ commissioned ALL disciples in the commssioning of the Eleven. All is hardly limited to those in communion with Rome. That you appear to think it is is exactly where the insult lies. It is also not a biblical position. If this is what the Catholic Church teaches, then I suggest it isn’t Luther and the like who are the heretics.

The date of Easter and Pentecost are not relevant. That Vandals sacked Rome is also totally irrelevant to this discussion. Whether or not Luther, or Charlagmagne or Pope John Paul II was related to them is even further irrelevant.

Again - it was the Protestants who left the Church, and who subsequently felt “called by God” to burn down all of Europe.

A reference to John Hus I am sure.

If you are going to stoop to using ad hominem arguments in this discussion I will continue it with guanophore alone.

As to when the Holy Spirit was given to the disciples, was it not when Jesus breathed on them and told them to “receive the Holy Spirit”? This was BEFORE Pentecost. What they received at Penteoost was power when the Holy Spirit came upon them (called by many the Baptism of the Holy Spirit), but this is not when the Holy Spirit was given.

Further, the Holy Spirit was given to them as individuals, not as a church. The Holy Spirit operates in individual lives, not in an institution. The Holy Spirit gifts the church with spiritual gifts, by giving them to individual Christians. Authoriy may be in an office, but the power and blessings of the Holy Spirit resides in the person.

And though I’ve said it before, since you’ve come back to that tired old saw: “The Catholic Church was founded by Christ,”, I’ll go ahead and repeat myself. The Catholic Church (as you think of it today) was NOT founded by Christ. The Church, as the body of Christ (incorporating all believers), was founded by Christ. At that time it was indeed catholic, but it wasn’t the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is a human designed institution carved out of the true catholic Church, and created centuries later by men, not by Jesus.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Which of the Catholic Church’s moral teachings do you disagree with?

Don’t make me bring out the artificial birth control/abortificient/abortion paddle.

I don’t know that I disagree with any of the Catholic Church’s teachings with regard to morals. It is not the morals of the Catholic Church I object to. Indeed only its arrogance to see itself as the excluse refuge of Christ’s people, that I find objectionable.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Since we agree that Christ want us to be one, what can be done to fix this?

we will celebrate the eucharist in my church tomorrow and we will invite all who understand themselves to belong to the body of Christ, all who desire to live a Christian life, to join in communion with us. We push no one away, and we invite all, you would be welcome here without reservation. So, if I came to your church tomorrow and desired to take the eucharist without any change in my present views would I be equally welcome to partake the the eucharist with you?

If so, then I stand corrected and you have not pushed us away. If not, …

No. Partaking of each other’s Eucharist would falsely signify a unity that does not currently exist.

St. Teresa, in her book The Way of Perfection (which is a diary of her spirituality that was written for her Confessor and, under his approval, for the sisters in her Order), writes, "Of the reason which moved me to found this convent in such strict observance.

When this convent was originally founded, for the reasons set down in the book which, as I say, I have already written, and also because of certain wonderful revelations by which the Lord showed me how well He would be served in this house, it was not my intention that there should be so much austerity in external matters, nor that it should have no regular income: on the contrary, I should have liked there to be no possibility of want. I acted, in short, like the weak and wretched woman that I am, although I did so with good intentions and not out of consideration for my own comfort.

At about this time there came to my notice the harm and havoc that were being wrought in France by these Lutherans and the way in which their unhappy sect was increasing. This troubled me very much, and, as though I could do anything, or be of any help in the matter, I wept before the Lord and entreated Him to remedy this great evil. I felt that I would have laid down a thousand lives to save a single one of all the souls that were being lost there."

Again - it was the Protestants who left the Church, and who subsequently felt “called by God” to burn down all of Europe.

If they “feel rejected” after all that, then what are we supposed to say?

Guanophore, I think you now have your answer as to why we cannot have unity.

 

[mark_a]

I don’t know that I disagree with any of the Catholic Church’s teachings with regard to morals. It is not the morals of the Catholic Church I object to. Indeed only its arrogance to see itself as the excluse refuge of Christ’s people, that I find objectionable.

The Church is not arrogant. It is the Church’s cross to take the truth, no matter how unpopular, to the world. The most difficult parts of these teachings are the moral teachings.

Arrogance is a human trait. God knows there is plenty of it in the Catholic Church. But you have to understand that this arrogance is human failure to live up to the teachings of Christ. None of us can live up to Christ’s example.

I have seen the arrogance from the other side of the fence. As a Catholic, I have to pray for and forgive these people even though I have no warm fuzzy about it.

Catholics, more than anyone else lately, realize the Church is full of sinners. You will find no allowance for arrogance in the CCC.

 

[onenow1]

I don’t know that I disagree with any of the Catholic Church’s teachings with regard to morals. It is not the morals of the Catholic Church I object to. Indeed only its arrogance to see itself as the excluse refuge of Christ’s people, that I find objectionable.

2Peter 1: 20, First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophacy ever came by the impulse of man, but by men moved by the Holy Spirit.

2Thess 2: 15, So then brethern stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

2Thess 3: 14-15, If anyone refuses to obey what we say in this letter, note that man, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. Do not look on him as an enemy but look on him as a brother.

Matt 18: 17-18, If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church: and if he refuses to listen to even church, let him be to you as a gentile and a tax collector. Truly I say to you whatever you loose on earth shall be lossed in heaven and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven.

Grace Seeker you might want to change the word arrogance to authority. The Pharisees thought Jesus was arrogant also.

Jesus taught as one having authority.

Peace, OneNow1

 

[Grace_Seeker]

2Peter 1: 20, First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophacy ever came by the impulse of man, but by men moved by the Holy Spirit.

2Thess 2: 15, So then brethern stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

2Thess 3: 14-15, If anyone refuses to obey what we say in this letter, note that man, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. Do not look on him as an enemy but look on him as a brother.

Matt 18: 17-18, If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church: and if he refuses to listen to even church, let him be to you as a gentile and a tax collector. Truky I say to you whatever you loose on earth shall be lossed in heaven and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven.

Grace Seeker you might want to change the word arrogance to authority. The Pharisees thought Jesus was arrogant also.

Jesus taught as one having authority.

Peace, OneNow1

Not a one of those quotes applies to the Catholic Church. If you think they do, then you are assuming an authority for the Catholic Church that is beyond what Christ has given to it. Indeed, all authority on heaven and earth was given to Jesus by the Father. But neither the Catholic Church nor the Vicar of Christ has that same authority today. It is a twisting of scripture to even infer anything remotely close.

Now as to “arrogance” as my choice of words.

The Church is not arrogant. It is the Church’s cross to take the truth, no matter how unpopular, to the world.

I believe it would be arrogance for anyone or anything other than Christ himself to say who is and who is not in the fold. There are some that I do not think are Christian, and I suppose it is arrogance on my part when I state it as strongly as I do that Mormons and JWs are not Christian. What I really should say is that the teachings of the Mormons and the JWs are not consistent with the historic teachings and faith of Christendom, nor with the Christian faith as I understand it to be articulated in the Bible.

If you want to say that the teachings of Protestant churches are not consistent with the historic teachings of the Catholic Church, I would agree. If you said that the teachings of Protestant churches are not consistent with what you understand to be the teachings with respect to the Christian faith as articulated in the Bible, I would disagree, but not call that arrogance.

If it is the Church’s cross to take the truth, no matter how unpopular, to the world; then it most itself be able to properly recognize truth from falsehood. To say that only those who think as the Catholic Church thinks and believe as the Catholic Church believes are even participants in the body of Christ, is IMO a blatant falsehood. It lays exclusivity to Catholics as the only true Christians and all others as not worthy of belonging to Christ.

I don’t think that such a view would be one adopted by Christ. If it is adopted by individual Catholics with respect to the Catholic Church, then IMO that is arrogance on the part of that individual. If it is indeed the teaching of the Catholic Church itself, then it is arrogance on the part of the Catholic Church itself.

All Christians, not just who are members of the Catholic Church, are members of the body of Christ. And if we are part of the body of Christ, then we are indeed part of the one body; we are not separated from the body. Thus we are not separated brethern, except in the minds of Catholics, not in the mind of Christ.

 

[onenow1]

Not a one of those quotes applies to the Catholic Church. If you think they do, then you are assuming an authority for the Catholic Church that is beyond what Christ has given to it. Indeed, all authority on heaven and earth was given to Jesus by the Father. But neither the Catholic Church nor the Vicar of Christ has that same authority today. It is a twisting of scripture to even infer anything remotely close.

Now as to “arrogance” as my choice of words.

I believe it would be arrogance for anyone or anything other than Christ himself to say who is and who is not in the fold. There are some that I do not think are Christian, and I suppose it is arrogance on my part when I state it as strongly as I do that Mormons and JWs are not Christian. What I really should say is that the teachings of the Mormons and the JWs are not consistent with the historic teachings and faith of Christendom, nor with the Christian faith as I understand it to be articulated in the Bible.

If you want to say that the teachings of Protestant churches are not consistent with the historic teachings of the Catholic Church, I would agree. If you said that the teachings of Protestant churches are not consistent with what you understand to be the teachings with respect to the Christian faith as articulated in the Bible, I would disagree, but not call that arrogance.

If it is the Church’s cross to take the truth, no matter how unpopular, to the world; then it most itself be able to properly recognize truth from falsehood. To say that only those who think as the Catholic Church thinks and believe as the Catholic Church believes are even participants in the body of Christ, is IMO a blatant falsehood. It lays exclusivity to Catholics as the only true Christians and all others as not worthy of belonging to Christ.

I don’t think that such a view would be one adopted by Christ. If it is adopted by individual Catholics with respect to the Catholic Church, then IMO that is arrogance on the part of that individual. If it is indeed the teaching of the Catholic Church itself, then it is arrogance on the part of the Catholic Church itself.

All Christians, not just who are members of the Catholic Church, are members of the body of Christ. And if we are part of the body of Christ, then we are indeed part of the one body; we are not separated from the body. Thus we are not separated brethern, except in the minds of Catholics, not in the mind of Christ.

No arguement from me you evidently know the mind of God.

Peace, OneNow1

 

[Grace_Seeker]

No arguement from me you evidently know the mind of God.

Peace, OneNow1

In part, most certainly. But not in total. Even in this thread I have said both. Further, I would hold that the same is true for all Christians, Catholic and non-Catholic alike.

Does the Catholic Church admit that it might not know the mind of God, or does it claim to be infallible?

 

[onenow1]

In part, most certainly. But not in total. Even in this thread I have said both. Further, I would hold that the same is true for all Christians, Catholic and non-Catholic alike.

Does the Catholic Church admit that it might not know the mind of God, or does it claim to be infallible?

The Catholic Church is guided by the Holy Spirit !

St.Ignatius of Antioch: 110AD. Wereever the Bishops appear, let the people be there; just as werever Jesus Christ is , there is the Catholic Church.

St.Clement: 80AD. Accept our council and you will have nothing to regret. Letter to the Corinthians.

Romans 13, Let every person be subject to governing authorities.

I believe St.Ignatius knew St.John, I accept his words as a reliable source; and i’m sure St.Clement knew Paul; according to St.Jerome, and probably knew [my opinion]= Probably knew St.Peter also.

CCC. Christ gave his power to the apostles,especially to Peter, " I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. Matt.16:19, 18:28, 28: 16-20.

By the way I’m glad you know the mind of God in part; in light of what the bible says. It goes like this. Who can know the mind of God?

Peace OneNow1

 

[mark_a]

All Christians, not just who are members of the Catholic Church, are members of the body of Christ. And if we are part of the body of Christ, then we are indeed part of the one body; we are not separated from the body. Thus we are not separated brethern, except in the minds of Catholics, not in the mind of Christ.

I like the tone of what you are conveying here. If you read the sections of the CCC concerning this, it has the same tone.

Thus we are not separated brethern, except in the minds of Catholics, not in the mind of Christ.

What term should we use? There are differences, as 490 years for killing each other proves beyond any doubt.

As I’ve said many times, most of the best Christians I know are Protestants.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

By the way I’m glad you know the mind of God in part; in light of what the bible says. It goes like this. Who can know the mind of God?

Answer: “Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.” (I Corinthians 13:12)

“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus” (Philippians 2"5)

“those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.” (Romans 8:5)

But the verse you quoted has nothing to do with knowing what God has revealed to us, it has to do with being able to pass knowledge on to God, for the verse continues:
“Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?”
“Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?” (Romans 11:34-35)

If this is how Catholics interpret scripture, it is no wonder you read it, even quote it and yet do not understand its teachings.

Righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference whether you are Catholic or Protestant or Orthodox or what label you apply to yourself as long as you believe you shall be saved.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

I like the tone of what you are conveying here. If you read the sections of the CCC concerning this, it has the same tone.

What term should we use? There are differences, as 490 years for killing each other proves beyond any doubt.

As I’ve said many times, most of the best Christians I know are Protestants.

I don’t know the answer to what term we should use. Why cannot we not just say we are brothers, without the emphasis on the separation? We are brothers and sisters in Christ, even though of different communions. The last is a shame, but I think the first is more important.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

To my Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ:

I just re-read a post of mine above, and there is a line I typed that I regret. I would edit it out deleting it, but I cannot do so. It was written hastily and I would withdraw it if I could. It is wrong of me to say that you do not understand scripture. We may disagree as to our interpretations of the best understanding of a particular passage, but that does not mean you have no understanding of it. I apologize.

From one who is still growing and a long way from perfection,
Grace Seeker

 

[guanophore]

the church has no business claiming to be the source of “faith and morals essential to living the full Christian life.” This is the work of the Holy Spirit, not the Catholic Church. Not any church. The church is at best an interpretor of these things. Further one does not need to be a part of the Catholic Church to receive the Holy Spirit’s guidance enabling one to interpret the Bible’s teaching on these matters.

Who are you to say that? When did Jesus make you God!? Jesus appointed His apostles, and gave his Spririt to the Church just for that reason. He promised to guide them into all truth. And so He does. If the Holy Spirit is guiding everyone, then how come there is so little agreement about what the scriptures mean?

Those who are non-Catholic and missing part of the truth, are not missing the truth because they are non-Catholic, they are missing it because they are human, and perfect truth and perfect understanding of God’s revelation will only take place in our lives when we are given the gift of seeing him as he really is. This takes place in heaven, not on earth.(See 1 Corinthians 13:12).

I guess if you want to wait, you can…

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Who are you to say that? When did Jesus make you God!? Jesus appointed His apostles, and gave his Spririt to the Church just for that reason. He promised to guide them into all truth. And so He does. If the Holy Spirit is guiding everyone, then how come there is so little agreement about what the scriptures mean?

Jesus didn’t make me God. Jesus sent me (and all other Christians) the gift of the Holy Spirit, so that God might reside within me.

Jesus also did not make the Catholic Church God. Jesus gave his Spirit to the Church (not just the Catholic Church). The Spirit guides all Christians into the truth, though we don’t all listen equally well. You may claim you listen better all you want. You may be right, you may be wrong, I don’t think we can prove either way from Scripture. That is when we go to history, tradition, and experience. The Catholic Church certainly has the edge in all those things. But the Holy Spirit is the trump card and all Christians in every church and communion have been given the Holy Spirit equally.

 

[mark_a]

I don’t know the answer to what term we should use. Why cannot we not just say we are brothers, without the emphasis on the separation? We are brothers and sisters in Christ, even though of different communions. The last is a shame, but I think the first is more important.

Gotcha.

It’s not my business who should be excluded.

I find ecumenism much harder on internet discussion/debate/whatever.