The Catholic Church is just another denomination

[Mannyfit75]

1. Alexandrian Catholics

The Alexandrian Catholics (Catholic Copts) have had a vicar Apostolic since 1781. Before that (in 1442 and again in 1713) the Coptic patriarch had submitted to Rome, but in neither case was the union of long duration. As the number of Catholics of this Rite has increased very considerably of late years, Leo XIII in 1895 restore the Catholic patriarchate. The patriarch lives at Cairo and rules over about 20,000 Catholic Copts.

1. Abyssinians

The Abyssinians, too, had many relations with Rome in past times, and Latin missionaries built up a considerable Catholic Abyssinian Church. But repeated persecutions and banishment of Catholics prevented this community from becoming a permanent one with a regular hierarchy. Now that the Government is tolerant, some thousands of Abyssinians are Catholics. They have an Apostolic vicar at Keren. If their numbers increase, no doubt they will in time be organized under a Catholic Abuna who should depend on the Catholic Coptic patriarch. Their liturgy, too, is at present in a state of disorganization. It seems that the Monophysite Abyssinian books will need a good deal of revision before they can be used by Catholics. Meanwhile the priests ordained for this rite have a translation of the Roman Mass in their own language, an arrangement that is not meant to be more than a temporary expedient.

1. Syrians

The Catholic Syrian Church dates from 1781. At that time a number of Jacobite bishops, priests, and lay people, who had agreed to reunion with Rome, elected one Ignatius Giarve to succeed the dead Jacobite patriarch, George III. Giarve sent to Rome asking for recognition and a pallium, and submitting in all things to the pope’s authority. But he was then deposed by those of his people who clung to Jacobitism, and a Jacobite patriarch was elected. From this time there have been two rival successions. In 1830 the Catholic Syrians were acknowledged by the Turkish Government as a separate millet. The Catholic patriarch lives at Beirut, most of his flock in Mesopotamia. Under him are three archbishops and six other bishops, five monasteries, and about 25,000 families.

 

[Mannyfit75]

1. Uniat Church of Malabar

There is also a Catholic Church of Malabar formed by the Synod of Diamper in 1599. This Church, too, has passed through stormy periods; quite lately, since the Vatican Council, a new schism has been formed form it of about 30,000 people who are in communion with neither the Catholics, nor the Jacobites, nor the Nestorians, nor any one else at all. There are now about 200,000 Malabar Catholics under three vicars Apostolic (at Trichur, Changanacherry, and Ernaculam).

1. Armenians

The Catholic Armenians are an important body numbering altogether about 130,000 souls. Like their Gregorian countrymen they are scattered about the Levant, and they have congregations in Austria and Italy. There have been several more or less temporary reunions of the Armenian Church since the fourteenth century, but in each case a rival Gregorian party set up rival patriarchs and bishops. The head of the Catholic Armenians is the Catholic Armenian Patriarch of Constantinople (since 1830), in whom is joined the patriarchate of Cilicia. He always takes the name Peter, and rules over three titular archbishops and fourteen sees, of which one is Alexandria and one Ispahan in Persia (Werner-- Silbernagl, 346). After much dispute he is now recognized by the Porte as the head of a separate millet, and he also represents before the Government all other Catholic bodies that have as yet no political organization. There are also many Catholic Armenians in Austria-Hungary who are subject in Transylvania to the Latin bishops, but in Galicia to the Armenian Archbishop of Lemberg. In Russia there is an Armenian Catholic See of Artvin immediately subject to the pope. The Mechitarists (Founded by Mechitar of Sebaste in 1711) are an important element of Armenian Catholicism. They are monks who follow the Rule of St. Benedict and have monasteries at San Lazzaro outside Venice, at Vienna, and in many towns in the Balkans, Armenia, and Russia. They have missions all over the Levant, schools, and presses that produce important liturgical, historical, historical, and theological works. Since 1869 all Armenian Catholic priests must be celibate.

 

[Mannyfit75]

1. Maronites

Lastly, the Maronite Church is entirely Catholic. There is much dispute as to its origin and the reason of its separation from the Syrian national Church. It is certain that it was formed around monasteries in the Lebanon founded by a certain John Maro in the fourth century. In spite of the indignant protests of all Maronites there is no doubt that they were separated from the old See of Antioch by the fact that they were Monothelites. They were reunited to the Roman Church in the twelfth century, and then (after a period of wavering) since 1216, when their patriarch, Jeremias II, made his definite submission, they have been unswervingly faithful, alone among all Eastern Churches. As in other cases, the Maronites, too, are allowed to keep their old organization and titles. Their head is the Maronite “Patriarch of Antioch and all the East”, successor to Monothelite rivals of the old line, who, therefore, in no way represents the original patriarchate. He is also the civil head of his nation, although he has no berat from the sultan, and lives in a large palace at Bkerki in the Lebanon. He has under him nine sees and several titular bishops. There are many monasteries and convents. The present law of the Maronite Church was drawn up by the great national council held in 1736 at the monastery of Our Lady of the Almond Trees (Deir Saïdat al-Luaize), in the Lebanon. There are about 300,000 Maronites in the Lebanon and scattered along the Syrian coast. They also have colonies in Egypt and Cyprus, and numbers of them have lately begun to emigrate to America. They have a national college at Rome.

Conclusion

This completes the list of all the Eastern Churches, whether schismatic or Catholic.

In considering their general characteristics we must first of all again separate the Eastern Catholics from the others. Eastern Rite Catholics are true Catholics, and have as much right to be so treated as Latins. As far as faith and morals go they must be numbered with us; as far as the idea of an Eastern Church may now seem to connote schism or a state of opposition to the Holy See, they repudiate it as strongly as we do. Nevertheless, their position is very important as being the result of relations between Rome and the East, and as showing the terms on which reunion between East and West is possible.

 

[jmcrae]

well if that “sort of music” has no place in the liturgy then why is it used in African Catholic services?
don’t you think he has been socialised and conformed too much?

He is a recent convert; not a theologian of the Church. It is to be expected that he retains some prejudices from his previous life - hopefully, he will mature and grow out of them, with time.

In any case, we are not required to like the music at Mass. We are just required to be in attendance there on Sundays and on Holy Days of Obligation.

 

[Mannyfit75]

newadvent.org/cathen/05230a.htm

 

[jack_hawkins]

Yes, I knew there were far more than two. I knew about Maronites, Copts and Chaldeans for example.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Most Eastern Catholic Churches arose when a group within an ancient Christian Church that was in disagreement with the see of Rome chose to enter into full communion with that see. However, the Maronite Church boasts of never having been separated from Rome, and has no counterpart Orthodox Church out of communion with the Pope. It is therefore inaccurate to refer to it as a “Uniate” Church. The Italo-Albanian Catholic Church has also never been out of communion with Rome, but, unlike the Maronite Church, it uses a liturgical rite, the Byzantine Rite, that originated in Constantinople and that is used by all the Churches that compose the Eastern Orthodox Church. The Syro-Malabar Church, based in Kerala, India, also claims never to have been knowingly out of communion with Rome. Other Christians of Kerala, who were originally of the same East-Syrian tradition, passed instead to the West-Syrian tradition and now form part of Oriental Orthodoxy.

The canon law that the Eastern Catholic Churches have in common has been codified in the 1990 Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches, while the Western or Latin particular Church is governed by the Code of Canon Law, a second edition of which was issued in 1983. Within the Roman Curia, the dicastery that works with the Eastern Catholic Churches is the Congregation for the Oriental Churches, which, by law, includes as members all Eastern Catholic patriarchs and major archbishops.

All Catholics are subject to the bishop of the eparchy or diocese (the local particular Church) to which they belong. They are also subject directly to the Pope, as is stated in canon 43 of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches and canon 331 of the Code of Canon Law. Most, but not all, Eastern Catholics are also directly subject to a patriarch, major archbishop, or metropolitan who has authority for all the bishops and the other faithful of his Rite or autonomous particular Church (canons 56 and 151 of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches).

The distinction between autonomous (sui iuris) particular Churches (cf. Second Vatican Council: Decree on the Catholic Eastern Churches Orientalium Ecclesiarum, 2), [2] and non-autonomous "particular or local Churches (cf. Second Vatican Council, Decree on the Pastoral Office of Bishops in the Church Christus Dominus, 11) [3] is dealt with more fully in the article Particular Church.

The Catholic patriarchs and major archbishops derive their titles from the sees of Alexandria (Copts), Antioch (Syrians, Melkites, Maronites), Babylonia (Chaldaeans), Cilicia (Armenians), Kyiv-Halyč (Ukrainians), Ernakulam-Angamaly (Syro-Malabars), Trivandrum (Syro-Malankaras), and Făgăraş-Alba Iulia (Romanians).

(Within the Latin Church, there are the titles of Patriarch of Jerusalem, Lisbon, Venice, East Indies and West Indies. All except the first — the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem — are merely honorary titles, and the last has fallen into disuse. They are irrelevant to the subject matter of this article.)

 

[jack_hawkins]

He is a recent convert; not a theologian of the Church. It is to be expected that he retains some prejudices from his previous life - hopefully, he will mature and grow out of them, with time.

In any case, we are not required to like the music at Mass. We are just required to be in attendance there on Sundays and on Holy Days of Obligation.

That sounds so much better. We are not required to participate and enjoy, just merely attend.
What a terrible prejudice - to like joyful praise of the Lord. I can see how that would be an affliction. Does he get prayer for this regrettable tendency?

 

[guanophore]

also from the catechism:

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

I think that most protestants are truly and genuinely ignorant of the history and nature of Cathocism. A lot of error is taught about what the Church believes and proclaims, so their refusal to enter or remain is based on a lack of knowlege.

 

[jack_hawkins]

I think that most protestants are truly and genuinely ignorant of the history and nature of Cathocism. A lot of error is taught about what the Church believes and proclaims, so their refusal to enter or remain is based on a lack of knowlege.

so what effort do Catholics make to correct that misinformation? you can’t expect people to come to an organisation they believe is in error
I can’t ever remember seeing Catholic evangelism
I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but I’ve never seen it
Protestant - YUP
JWs - many more times than I care to remember
Mormons - YUP

 

[jam070406]

That sounds so much better. We are not required to participate and enjoy, just merely attend.
What a terrible prejudice - to like joyful praise of the Lord. I can see how that would be an affliction. Does he get prayer for this regrettable tendency?

who said he can’t enjoy joyful praise music?

 

[jack_hawkins]

who said he can’t enjoy joyful praise music?

many Catholics on this site and other Catholic fora!
not our priests as the Sunday before last we had some great praise (admittedly only because the school were leading)

 

[guanophore]

so what effort do Catholics make to correct that misinformation? you can’t expect people to come to an organisation they believe is in error
I can’t ever remember seeing Catholic evangelism
I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but I’ve never seen it
Protestant - YUP
JWs - many more times than I care to remember
Mormons - YUP

this forum has helped me to correct a lot of misinformation I have, and I am sure will continue to do so, and I thank Catholic Answers for that. You are right that I cannot expect people to come into an organization that they believe is in error. If you remember, I originally told you it might be better to remain where you were? But, after reading your posts, I can see that, in spite of your occasional sarcastic remarks, you are sincere in your desire to learn more. Catholic evangelism does have a very different quality than those of many protestant faiths. It extends primarily through what are called corporate acts of mercy. Since Catholics don’t believe we are saved by faith alone, but by faith, working through love, the person must be reached through that love by having their needs met.

I understand now that one of your needs is to understand why the Catholic Church does not support IVF. I hope that your need to understand this will be met on this forum, or from other resources. I hope that all your questions are answered,but in the end, it is the Holy Spirit that will draw you. If you are being drawn, then even the blemishes in the organization will not be an impediment to you.

 

[jmcrae]

That sounds so much better. We are not required to participate and enjoy, just merely attend.
What a terrible prejudice - to like joyful praise of the Lord. I can see how that would be an affliction. Does he get prayer for this regrettable tendency?

Or rather, we go with humility in our heart to praise and honour the Lord in the way provided by our local parish, and not as a “connoisseur of Masses,” with nose up high in the air, tasting this, sniffing that, critiquing the other, and passing judgement upon the experience, as if it were a consumer product of some kind.

 

[jack_hawkins]

Yes I am sincere, hence going to the classes. And yes I probably over-intellectualise everything but that’s my make-up. It’s a blessing and curse like being Spiderman
I just find it very disconcerting when the details of a doctrine run counter to what I assume are the principles underlying it.
IVF is a good example of that. I am completely OK about being anti-abortion - even when I had fallen away from the faith altogether I would never have contemplated being involved in abortion personally or professionally. I cannot see anything evil in providing a much-wanted and much-loved child for a couple. This has significance for me as an individual also, as my wife has polycystic ovary syndrome.
Most of what the Catholic Church has to say makes perfect sense and I completely agree with.

 

[jack_hawkins]

Or rather, we go with humility in our heart to praise and honour the Lord in the way provided by our local parish, and not as a “connoisseur of Masses,” with nose up high in the air, tasting this, sniffing that, critiquing the other, and passing judgement upon the experience, as if it were a consumer product of some kind.

Well we go to praise and honour the Lord in Spirit and in Truth, rather than merely in the “way provided by our local parish”. Joyful praise pleases the Lord, when we have been washed by his blood we should be joyful - otherwise I believe we have not fully realised our salvation.
That is nothing to do with being a “connoisseur” at all, just with being honest before the Lord.

 

[jmcrae]

That is nothing to do with being a “connoisseur” at all, just with being honest before the Lord.

Well then, why critique the music? It’s not like they’re professional musicians - these are volunteers who are giving the music straight from their hearts.

If you honestly think you can do better, then get in there and help out.

 

[jack_hawkins]

Well then, why critique the music? It’s not like they’re professional musicians - these are volunteers who are giving the music straight from their hearts.

If you honestly think you can do better, then get in there and help out.

It’s the style of the music that is the issue. Our organist is very good, but it’s still a church organ. I would quite happily sing in the choir, I have a good voice but that would not make any difference.
Music straight from their hearts? You haven’t been to our parish then.

 

[jmcrae]

It’s the style of the music that is the issue. Our organist is very good, but it’s still a church organ. I would quite happily sing in the choir, I have a good voice but that would not make any difference.
Music straight from their hearts? You haven’t been to our parish then.

Obviously not, since it’s on the other side of the world.

I’m sorry that your music ministers don’t seem to take their ministry very seriously, and don’t choose appropriate hymns.

 

[jack_hawkins]

Oh I mustn’t blame them, I’m sure the congregation is more the hymn type. Like I say, I may join the choir and try and help the singing effort (or not as the case may be )