The Catholic Church is just another denomination

[jmcrae]

Just out of curiousity… do other Catholics believe this too?

Okay, let’s start from the top again.

People who aren’t Christians.

Recognize that the Pope is the leader of Christianity.

Not because they think Jesus was God.

But because they know that Jesus was a historical person.

Who founded a religion.

Who, upon leaving this earth, placed his friend Peter in charge of his religion.

And that Peter’s Successors are the Popes of Rome.

Does that make more sense to you now?

 

[jmcrae]

I could tell someone would misread jmcrea on post #628. jmcrea will clarify I’m sure, but I will offer how I had read that response…

A total nonbeliever, an agnostic, an atheist, or even a galactic traveler, who might be factually interested in researching this person Jesus Christ, and how, if, and when, He left someone in charge, even such a person would come across the Catholic Church in their research. The historical evidence is such that it stands on its own… without any belief in Jesus necessary to reach that conclusion.

Does this help, or did I muddy the water?

God Bless Us All,

Thank you; that’s exactly what I was trying to convey.

 

[believers]

what happened to

Pick up your cross daily and follow Me

Give all that you have to the poor and follow Me.

Be born again of water and the Spirit

Listen to the Church (he who hears you,…

etc etc etc

According to God, huh… well it’s a good, partial, but good list… and is according to believers.

Let me restate that. Those are the top 5 requirements for salvation according to God’s Word.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit (being born-again) happens when you believe and repent.

 

[jmcrae]

Baptism of the Holy Spirit (being born-again) happens when you believe and repent.

Only if they obey Christ and get Baptized in the Church with water.

The Holy Spirit doesn’t just automagically come, in the majority of cases - He comes to us when we are baptized with water, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, not for physical washing, but for the washing of the soul from sins - the material water of Baptism washes the soul from its sins, and that’s when the Holy Spirit comes to us.

 

[believers]

Only if they obey Christ and get Baptized in the Church with water.

The Holy Spirit doesn’t just automagically come, in the majority of cases - He comes to us when we are baptized with water, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, not for physical washing, but for the washing of the soul from sins - the material water of Baptism washes the soul from its sins, and that’s when the Holy Spirit comes to us.

What you are saying is everyone water baptized is saved.

1Pe 3:21
The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

 

[jmcrae]

What you are saying is everyone water baptized is saved.

What I am saying is that everyone who is water baptized is in the Church. We won’t “get saved” until Judgement Day, which hasn’t happened, yet. Part of the criteria at the Judgement Day will be how well we obeyed Christ during our time on earth.

Baptism is the narrow “gate” that opens to the strait “Way” of Christ, whose ultimate destination (assuming we don’t stray off the path at some point during the journey) is Heaven.

 

[believers]

What I am saying is that everyone who is water baptized is in the Church. We won’t “get saved” until Judgement Day, which hasn’t happened, yet. Part of the criteria at the Judgement Day will be how well we obeyed Christ during our time on earth.

Baptism is the narrow “gate” that opens to the strait “Way” of Christ, whose ultimate destination (assuming we don’t stray off the path at some point during the journey) is Heaven.

“get saved” and “now saves” do not mean the same thing. God said that baptism NOW saves us.

1Pe 3:21
The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

 

[MrS]

“get saved” and “now saves” do not mean the same thing. God said that baptism NOW saves us.

1Pe 3:21
The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Yes He does, but your interpretation is faulty.

None of Scripture contradicts. If your interpretation is correct, then Paul had nothing to fear… nor did his followers. Yet they were told to work out their salvation in fear and trembling, and even Paul asked for prayers lest he fall (lose his salvation)

.

 

[MrS]

Since justification is an ongoing process, so is the completion of our salvation.

Catholics do not ascribe to the protestant notion that “well, I guess he wasn’t saved in the first place”

.

 

[believers]

Yes He does, but your interpretation is faulty.

None of Scripture contradicts. If your interpretation is correct, then Paul had nothing to fear… nor did his followers. Yet they were told to work out their salvation in fear and trembling, and even Paul asked for prayers lest he fall (lose his salvation)

.

It’s not my interpretation. God said baptism NOW SAVES. How exactly am I misinterpreting this verse? It’s right there look.

“baptism now saves us” -God

 

[jmcrae]

Since justification is an ongoing process, so is the completion of our salvation.

Catholics do not subscribe to the protestant notion that “well, I guess he wasn’t saved in the first place.”

Mostly because it’s ridiculous. If someone who is evangelizing and shouting about Christ all the day long can’t “know” that he has a relationship with Jesus (because 20 years later, he will lose his faith), then there is no point in all the hype, to begin with.

 

[jmcrae]

It’s not my interpretation. God said baptism NOW SAVES. How exactly am I misinterpreting this verse? It’s right there look.

“baptism now saves us” -God

Yes - in that, if someone were to die immediately after Baptism, they would go straight to Heaven.

It’s also the first and most necessary step along the road to salvation, for those who continue to live.

Those who continue to live will sometimes sin, and they will need to go to the Sacrament of Reconciliation in order to get back their Baptismal graces.

 

[believers]

Yes - in that, if someone were to die immediately after Baptism, they would go straight to Heaven.

It’s also the first and most necessary step along the road to salvation, for those who continue to live.

Those who continue to live will sometimes sin, and they will need to go to the Sacrament of Reconciliation in order to get back their Baptismal graces.

That’s not what God said. You’re adding doctrine. God said baptism now saves. He did not say only if you die right after the baptism.

So you’re saying God meant to say baptism now saves ‘sometimes’?

 

[jmcrae]

That’s not what God said. You’re adding doctrine. God said baptism now saves. He did not say only if you die right after the baptism.

HEY, we have progressed one step forward.

Are you baptized?

 

[jmcrae]

So you’re saying God meant to say baptism now saves ‘sometimes’?

Try to read the whole Bible, rather than just one verse at a time. We are supposed to obey every word - the words about feeding the hungry and visiting the prisoners - the words about participating in the Sacraments - the words about persevering until the end - all of them.

We don’t just pick one verse, and say, “Here’s what saves,” as if it were the only verse in the whole Bible.

 

[believers]

HEY, we have progressed one step forward.

Are you baptized?

Let’s just say that I’m not water baptized and I’d like to join the Catholic church. God said baptism now saves. If I get water baptized, am I saved?

 

[jmcrae]

Let’s just say that I’m not water baptized and I’d like to join the Catholic church. God said baptism now saves. If I get water baptized, am I saved?

Yes. And you’re also being saved. You still have to persevere until the very end, obey Christ in all things, and work out your salvation in fear and trembling - just like St. Paul.

 

[believers]

Try to read the whole Bible, rather than just one verse at a time. We are supposed to obey every word - the words about feeding the hungry and visiting the prisoners - the words about participating in the Sacraments - the words about persevering until the end - all of them.

We don’t just pick one verse, and say, “Here’s what saves,” as if it were the only verse in the whole Bible.

It certainly isn’t the only verse in the Bible but the RCC has built doctrine on it. Let me get this right… you’re saying that water baptism does not save all the time… rt?

1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] **baptism doth also now save us **(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

 

[jmcrae]

It certainly isn’t the only verse in the Bible but the RCC has built doctrine on it. Let me get this right… you’re saying that water baptism does not save all the time… rt?

1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] **baptism doth also now save us **(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Baptism saves, but it is not the only thing that saves. Perseverence until the end saves. Believing saves. Obedience to Christ saves. Participating in the Sacraments saves.

If you have some of these, but not all of these, and your state in life is such that you could have them, but you are simply refusing them, then you will not be saved.

But, all of these things, and each of these things, saves us.

 

[jmcrae]

It certainly isn’t the only verse in the Bible but the RCC has built doctrine on it.

Actually, we had the doctrine before we had the verse - otherwise, we wouldn’t have had the verse that expresses the already-existing doctrine.