The Catholic Church is not Babylon: Why?

[Hatikvah]

First, allow me to stress that I am not intending to attack Catholics, Catholicism, or any collective group in particular for that matter. If it appears as if I have done so, then I apologize in advance. The prime part of my questions are at the bottom of this post.

Well, as many of you know, many mainstream Protestants (and some Restorationists, I assume) believe that the Catholic church is the Whore of Babylon spoken of mostly in Revelation 17. Many websites advertise that it is and try to provide interpretations of Scripture to support their arguments (“drunken with the blood of the saints,” in Revelation 17:6, for instance, to refer to the Inquisition; though, that could really refer to any faith that has killed a great number of Christians).

As a Protestant, I don’t profess that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon, primarily because it is the vehicle through which many, many people of the past, present, and surely the future will receive Christianity and certain forms of charity and aid.

But, there are some things really tripping me up with the idea that the Church is not Babylon (as much as I have, and would rather, know that it is not). For example, the Whore of Babylon had daughter [churches] (Rev. 17:5). Or, so it has been interpreted as churches by everything I have heard or read. Who else has daughter churches other than the Catholic Church? This tract says that all Christian churches come from the Catholic Church.

So: Who are the most likely candidates for the Whore of Babylon?; What are their daughter churches, or how can “daughters” be interpreted differently?

Thank you!

 

[phil19034]

First, allow me to stress that I am not intending to attack Catholics, Catholicism, or any collective group in particular for that matter. If it appears as if I have done so, then I apologize in advance. The prime part of my questions are at the bottom of this post.

Well, as many of you know, many mainstream Protestants (and some Restorationists, I assume) believe that the Catholic church is the Whore of Babylon spoken of mostly in Revelation 17. Many websites advertise that it is and try to provide interpretations of Scripture to support their arguments (“drunken with the blood of the saints,” in Revelation 17:6, for instance, to refer to the Inquisition; though, that could really refer to any faith that has killed a great number of Christians).

As a Protestant, I don’t profess that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon, primarily because it is the vehicle through which many, many people of the past, present, and surely the future will receive Christianity and certain forms of charity and aid.

But, there are some things really tripping me up with the idea that the Church is not Babylon (as much as I have, and would rather, know that it is not). For example, the Whore of Babylon had daughter [churches] (Rev. 17:5). Or, so it has been interpreted as churches by everything I have heard or read. Who else has daughter churches other than the Catholic Church? This tract says that all Christian churches come from the Catholic Church.

So: Who are the most likely candidates for the Whore of Babylon?; What are their daughter churches, or how can “daughters” be interpreted differently?

Thank you!

Where do you get daughters and Churches from that verse? The idea that the Catholic Church is the whore based on that verse is a huge stretch and is really a case of picking individual verses to support agendas.

This verse really speaks to a paticular society (most likely the Roman Empire or possibly Jerusalem) where the people become addicted to lust and material wealth, etc.

Honestly, as time continues to go by, the Whore of Babylon looks more and more like the United States as Hollywood and the Democrates continue to push abortion, gay marriage, euthanasia, and now transgenderness on the world.

 

[AlphaFoxtrotNW]

Where do you get daughters and Churches from that verse? The idea that the Catholic Church is the whore based on that verse is a huge stretch and is really a case of picking individual verses to support agendas.

This verse really speaks to a paticular society (most likely the Roman Empire or possibly Jerusalem) where the people become addicted to lust and material wealth, etc.

Honestly, as time continues to go by, the Whore of Babylon looks more and more like the United States as Hollywood and the Democrates continue to push abortion, gay marriage, euthanasia, and now transgenderness on the world.

^^^This is perfect for the summary of our times.

 

[Mintaka]

Well, the reason a lot of people think that “Babylon” is Jerusalem is that the passage talks about “fornications.” This is the usual Jewish prophetic way to refer to idolatry and pagan worship, since Israel was God’s bride, “the bride of my youth,” and Jews who worshipped pagan gods were pictured as cheating on God. It also talks about “abominations,” which means a situation where pagan worship is going on in a Jewish sacred place. For example, “the abomination of desolation” when Antiochus and a few other pagans desecrated the Temple by such worship. The same sort of thing happened a couple of times, but the Romans kept being astonished that the Jews might mind an emperor or general or governor setting up pagan statues or symbols inside the Temple walls, or wanting to stroll up into the Holy of Holies. After the destruction of Jerusalem, the Temple was razed and then had a temple to Jupiter Capitolinus built on top of it. (Calvary and Jesus’ Tomb had a huge temple to Venus built on top of it, which definitely counts as an abomination.)

OTOH, a lot of people think that it does mean pagan Rome (the “city on seven hills”), and that it’s talking about stuff that was actually not even acceptable worship behavior for pagans. The Roman Empire knew perfectly well that their emperors were human beings, and yet people were allowed to set up temples and worship for the deified emperors and their deified relatives. Like the people of Babylon when the Jews were in captivity in Babylon, Rome kept trying both by force and by persuasion to get Christians to sacrifice to pagan gods (although including the emperors, which even the pagans of Babylon didn’t do). The goddess Roma Mater (“Mother Rome”) was literally the “mother of fornications,” because the Roman government often supported pagan worship and emperor worship with gifts made from government tax money. It was the mother of abominations, because the atmosphere of living in the Empire encouraged some Christians (like “Jezebel” in the letters to the churches) to try integrating with their pagan neighbors in ways that ultimately led to cheating on God while pretending it was all Christian and fine.

These are the traditional interpretations of Revelation, and given all the veiled references to Nero, the seven emperors and the eighth one, etc., most people think it’s either pagan Rome and the pagan Roman Empire that are the Harlot and the Beast, or it’s Jerusalem/Israel that’s the Harlot when trying to make nice with the pagan Roman Empire (which is still seen as the Beast). But since Peter is traditionally using a codeword for the city of Rome in his letters when he says he’s writing from Babylon, probably Babylon is supposed to be the pagan city of Rome.

Now, there was a secondary moral interpretation which showed up later, in which “Babylon” was seen as also representing the Jezebels of the contemporary church, and meaning supposedly-Christian people who taught heresies and immoral behavior, and thus were as bad as the pagans. You see this in a lot of commentaries from the Middle Ages, where symbolism for bad pagan emperors can also mean all the bad Christian kings that Christians had to deal with, the false prophet beast also represents bad Christian clergy, and the dragon stands for the devil and also for all unrepentantly evil Christians. These sorts of commentaries talk a lot about how there are always going to be tares among the wheat until the end of time, and how all Christians have to do a lot of self-examination to avoid being part of the dragon. (St. Beatus of Liebana’s Commentary on the Apocalypse focuses a lot on this moral interpretation, although he’s also interested in every other kind of interpretation.)

The interpretation of the Harlot as being the Church itself (or at least, being the Vatican and the church hierarchy) is pretty much a political cartoon dating from the Reformation. If a Protestant reformer from the early days wanted to believe that the Catholic Church was engaging in real honest to goodness pagan worship, and has a handy lack of actual pagans hanging around Europe to compare with, it could seem plausible. All you had to do was transfer the moral interpretation to “that evil Catholic Church over there is guilty and will be destroyed” instead of “all of us Christians have to watch out.”

Of course, five seconds later, you see Reformation Protestants deciding that each other’s new churches are also the Harlot.

There’s nothing in Revelation 17 about “daughters,” per se.

 

[boomerang]

Like Mintaka said, I have always heard that Babylon is ancient Rome, or the Roman Empire, and it’s whore is Jerusalem or Israel. The whore is not from Babylon, she is the whore that Babylon fornicates with, alluding to the Jewish authorities’ collusion with Rome. Both the Jews and the Romans killed the saints in the early church.

 

[Darryl_B]

First, allow me to stress that I am not intending to attack Catholics, Catholicism, or any collective group in particular for that matter. If it appears as if I have done so, then I apologize in advance. The prime part of my questions are at the bottom of this post.

Well, as many of you know, many mainstream Protestants (and some Restorationists, I assume) believe that the Catholic church is the Whore of Babylon spoken of mostly in Revelation 17. Many websites advertise that it is and try to provide interpretations of Scripture to support their arguments (“drunken with the blood of the saints,” in Revelation 17:6, for instance, to refer to the Inquisition; though, that could really refer to any faith that has killed a great number of Christians).

As a Protestant, I don’t profess that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon, primarily because it is the vehicle through which many, many people of the past, present, and surely the future will receive Christianity and certain forms of charity and aid.

But, there are some things really tripping me up with the idea that the Church is not Babylon (as much as I have, and would rather, know that it is not). For example, the Whore of Babylon had daughter [churches] (Rev. 17:5). Or, so it has been interpreted as churches by everything I have heard or read. Who else has daughter churches other than the Catholic Church? This tract says that all Christian churches come from the Catholic Church.

So: Who are the most likely candidates for the Whore of Babylon?; What are their daughter churches, or how can “daughters” be interpreted differently?

Thank you!

I used to be one of those seriously disillusioned believers who held to the interpretation that the Catholic Church is the “whore Babylon” (not the whore of Babylon, because that does not make sense, the whore and Babylon are the same thing, a city, one is not owned by the other, they are the same thing … but then again neither do all the Puritanic American websites who make these claims against the Catholic Church make any sense either).

The whore Babylon is a reference to the city which has the Babylonian Talmud. But when the American Puritans discovered the Internet, they did not actually learn from that Internet, they just saw it as a vehicle for spewing forth their Puritan hatred and boy do those veins run deep.

Sad story, yes.

 

[JustaServant]

1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

From the PROTESTANT KJV.

The Greek word for ‘signified’ is σημαίνω or sēmainō. It means to give a sign, to signify, indicate. In other words, it is a book of** signs and symbols**.

Attempts at interpreting Revelation using “Sola Scriptura” results in soulish interpretations based more on the reader’s imagination and prejudices.

 

[MT1926]

First, allow me to stress that I am not intending to attack Catholics, Catholicism, or any collective group in particular for that matter. If it appears as if I have done so, then I apologize in advance. The prime part of my questions are at the bottom of this post.

Well, as many of you know, many mainstream Protestants (and some Restorationists, I assume) believe that the Catholic church is the Whore of Babylon spoken of mostly in Revelation 17. Many websites advertise that it is and try to provide interpretations of Scripture to support their arguments (“drunken with the blood of the saints,” in Revelation 17:6, for instance, to refer to the Inquisition; though, that could really refer to any faith that has killed a great number of Christians).

As a Protestant, I don’t profess that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon, primarily because it is the vehicle through which many, many people of the past, present, and surely the future will receive Christianity and certain forms of charity and aid.

But, there are some things really tripping me up with the idea that the Church is not Babylon (as much as I have, and would rather, know that it is not). For example, the Whore of Babylon had daughter [churches] (Rev. 17:5). Or, so it has been interpreted as churches by everything I have heard or read. Who else has daughter churches other than the Catholic Church? This tract says that all Christian churches come from the Catholic Church.

So: Who are the most likely candidates for the Whore of Babylon?; What are their daughter churches, or how can “daughters” be interpreted differently?

Thank you!

Try this:
catholic.com/radio/shows/open-forum-for-non-catholics-37387#

Jimmy Akin gives an excellent response to a question similar to yours starting at the 27:30 mark.

 

[hadulzo]

“If it’s on the internet it must be true.” Abe Lincoln rather than take a website’s word for it, i suggest you so some research. Catholics have no definative interpretation of Revelation but are instructed on the methods of properly reading it. However, consider in the Prophets Jerusalem is referred to as a harlot. I am far from a scripture scholar but i see a similarity in the old and the new.

 

[Son_of_Niall]

So: Who are the most likely candidates for the Whore of Babylon?; What are their daughter churches, or how can “daughters” be interpreted differently?

Thank you!

Did it ever occur to you that you are asking Catholics to do exactly what the Fundy/Chicksters do?

 

[mackbrislawn]

First, allow me to stress that I am not intending to attack Catholics, Catholicism, or any collective group in particular for that matter. If it appears as if I have done so, then I apologize in advance. The prime part of my questions are at the bottom of this post.

Well, as many of you know, many mainstream Protestants (and some Restorationists, I assume) believe that the Catholic church is the Whore of Babylon spoken of mostly in Revelation 17. Many websites advertise that it is and try to provide interpretations of Scripture to support their arguments (“drunken with the blood of the saints,” in Revelation 17:6, for instance, to refer to the Inquisition; though, that could really refer to any faith that has killed a great number of Christians).

As a Protestant, I don’t profess that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon, primarily because it is the vehicle through which many, many people of the past, present, and surely the future will receive Christianity and certain forms of charity and aid.

But, there are some things really tripping me up with the idea that the Church is not Babylon (as much as I have, and would rather, know that it is not). For example, the Whore of Babylon had daughter [churches] (Rev. 17:5). Or, so it has been interpreted as churches by everything I have heard or read. Who else has daughter churches other than the Catholic Church? This tract says that all Christian churches come from the Catholic Church.

So: Who are the most likely candidates for the Whore of Babylon?; What are their daughter churches, or how can “daughters” be interpreted differently?

Thank you!

As in interesting side note, the Jehovah’s Witnesses call the Catholic Church the Whore of Babylon, and that the Protestant Churches are even worse since they are the daughters of the Whore.

 

[Darryl_B]

I have stated before that the phrase “whore of Babylon” does not exist in the Bible. Instead it states that there is a whore and that whore is Babylon there is no “of” about it. The phrase “whore of Babylon” makes it sound like there are two entities 1. Babylon, probably masculine in nature, 2. the whore, feminine, who belongs to the masculine Babylon. This is not Scripture, Scripture instead says the whore and Babylon are the same entity. But so many people use the phrase “whore of Babylon” as if it is a given.

Now there is a beast which the woman rides on, but that beast is not Babylon.

There has to have been some origin to that phrase “whore of Babylon”. It is not Biblical, however it has been regurgitated rather prolifically. Where did that phrase “whore of Babylon” originate? Once that is found things will become obvious.

 

[mikeeh]

I haven’t read all of Revelation, so I can’t give a great answer. But I’ve always thought they were more allegorical. The beast represents secularism/atheism, the whore is radical feminism, the dragon is a radical religion that contradicts Catholicism, and the false prophet is statism including all the varieties of nanny-state big government that reject the Church. Or something along those lines.

 

[Kliska]

First, allow me to stress that I am not intending to attack Catholics, Catholicism, or any collective group in particular for that matter. If it appears as if I have done so, then I apologize in advance. The prime part of my questions are at the bottom of this post.

Well, as many of you know, many mainstream Protestants (and some Restorationists, I assume) believe that the Catholic church is the Whore of Babylon spoken of mostly in Revelation 17. Many websites advertise that it is and try to provide interpretations of Scripture to support their arguments (“drunken with the blood of the saints,” in Revelation 17:6, for instance, to refer to the Inquisition; though, that could really refer to any faith that has killed a great number of Christians).

As a Protestant, I don’t profess that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon, primarily because it is the vehicle through which many, many people of the past, present, and surely the future will receive Christianity and certain forms of charity and aid.

But, there are some things really tripping me up with the idea that the Church is not Babylon (as much as I have, and would rather, know that it is not). For example, the Whore of Babylon had daughter [churches] (Rev. 17:5). Or, so it has been interpreted as churches by everything I have heard or read. Who else has daughter churches other than the Catholic Church? This tract says that all Christian churches come from the Catholic Church.

So: Who are the most likely candidates for the Whore of Babylon?; What are their daughter churches, or how can “daughters” be interpreted differently?

Thank you!

As a Protestant, this article works for me; catholic.com/tracts/the-whore-of-babylon

Esp, "This passage gives us one reason why the Catholic Church cannot be the Whore. We are told that the heads “are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come.” If five of these kings had fallen in John’s day and one of them was still in existence, then the Whore must have existed in John’s day. Yet Christian Rome and Vatican City did not. However, pagan Rome did have a line of emperors, and the majority of commentators see this as the line of kings to which 17:10 refers. Five of these emperors are referred to as having already fallen, one as still reigning in John’s time, and another yet to come. Since Jerusalem had no such line of kings in the first century, this gives us evidence that the Beast (though not the Whore) is Rome.

 

[Vanez]

As in interesting side note, the Jehovah’s Witnesses call the Catholic Church the Whore of Babylon, and that the Protestant Churches are even worse since they are the daughters of the Whore.

Oh my! Pardon me for giggling! But your comment somehow gives me an evil idea to stop my Protestant friends to accuse the Roman Catholic church by asking back: “so then you meant you’re all the daughters of a whore??”

my attempt to try to stop banishing what others believe.

 

[JustaServant]

Oh my! Pardon me for giggling! But your comment somehow gives me an evil idea to stop my Protestant friends to accuse the Roman Catholic church by asking back: “so then you meant you’re all the daughters of a whore??”

my attempt to try to stop banishing what others believe.

Actually…that’s a very good point.