N
notsmart
Guest
So, why did they drop the tradition to keep the count to 12?
Was it just a man made thing, bound to fail?
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Was it just a man made thing, bound to fail?
A
avenger
Guest
OK, so youre a pagan and dont believe in the BIble…youre out of here! So the Gospel is not accurate when Jesus calls them Boanerges?
Mark 3:17 (New American Standard Bible)
17and James, the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James (to them He gave the name Boanerges, which means, “Sons of Thunder”);
Want to try again pagan?
C
Church_Militant
Guest
No problem.
But let’s look at it in the context of what St. Paul taught St. Timothy remembering that there are no chapters and verses in the original text.
So, look at what he says in the previous chapter.
14 These things I write to thee, hoping that I shall come to thee shortly. 15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
St. Paul tells him here that the church is the pillar and ground of the truth…NOT the scriptures.
Just like all faithful Catholics they study not only the scriptures but to insure that he spends time on exhortation and teaching yet nowhere does he say that these last two are based solely upon scripture and we know for a fact that the apostles did not teach solely from scripture but from Traditional documents as well (Look at Jude 1:9 When Michael the archangel, disputing with the devil, contended about the body of Moses, he durst not bring against him the judgment of railing speech, but said: The Lord command thee. and 14 Now of these Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying: Behold, the Lord cometh with thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to reprove all the ungodly for all the works of their ungodliness, whereby they have done ungodly, and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against God.)
Both of those verses show that the apostle Jude took some of his teachings directly from traditional Jewish writings that are even today not considered canonical. If Jude the apostle did this then how can you say that Tradition is wrong if he draws from it for 3 out of 24 verse in his epistle and in both cases to make important points?
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notsmart
Guest
Paul was not an apostle of the 12. He was a self proclaimed apostle to the gentiles.
H
Hisalone
Guest
Was he not an apostle?
And if so would he designate himself without prior confirmation?
N
notsmart
Guest
He was not one of the 12 apostles. He called himself the apostle to the gentiles. Its that simple. You can take it any way you wish from there. I prefer not to speculate.
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avenger
Guest
Which church does Paul refer to? Is it not one that HE founded, and NOT Peter? And whilel he does mention it, it does not mitigate that Scripture is what Timothy is to read and teach from. You made a great attempt though, I value that.
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Hisalone
Guest
the office of the apostle was not closed after the selection of the first 12.
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Now, let’s look at one of the passages that most proponents of this errant doctrine.
2nd Timothy 2:15 Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
Where does that say or even infer that this study is limited only to the scriptures?
It doesn’t…anywhere, and we already know that the apostles taught from Tradition as did the early church, so then this passage fails (with epic proportions) to support Sola Scriptura.
2nd Timothy 2:15 Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
Where does that say or even infer that this study is limited only to the scriptures?
It doesn’t…anywhere, and we already know that the apostles taught from Tradition as did the early church, so then this passage fails (with epic proportions) to support Sola Scriptura.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
The Scripture that St. Paul referred to is the Old Testament. How did Christians get the New Testament?
C
ChristianKnight
Guest
I do not care what your church officially declares, when someone calls me a in-pure christian, then that person has judged, and god said not too. I do not know how the catholic church can be just.
lol, I doubt I’ll ever have this fullness as I’ve been told of countless times. I personally would rather worship on my own away from a church, and let god decide whether or not I am going to hell on his own, and not have to ask anyone else on his behalf (Mary, Saints).
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notsmart
Guest
Can you tell me when Jesus gave him the title apostle?
Paul was not even an eyewitness of Jesus’ ministry. He did have a vision that blinded him though. And, yes it was Jesus speaking to him. But, Jesus never gave him the title apostle. Paul did that all on his own.
A
avenger
Guest
So when Paul says the word Scripture, he doesnt mean Scripture? Come now. And what Tradition are you referring to? You mean eyewitness accounts, that eventually became Christian Scripture. Paul and even Christ Himself used Scripture to prove Christ as the Messiah.Now, let’s look at one of the passages that most proponents of this errant doctrine.
2nd Timothy 2:15 Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
Where does that say or even infer that this study is limited only to the scriptures?
It doesn’t…anywhere, and we already know that the apostles taught from Tradition as did the early church, so then this passage fails (with epic proportions) to support Sola Scriptura.
N
notsmart
Guest
Paul rebuked christians for falling away from worship together. He did not endorse, but condemned that type of going your own way.
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ChristianKnight
Guest
And? A lot of people condemn me in real life, that doesn’t mean I am marked for hell.
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Don’t dodge the issue. This passage does not tell anyone to rely on the scriptures ALONE as the final and ultimate authority for all that Christians believe and practice. It’s just not there.
Paul nowhere there tells Timothy to study JUST the scriptures as his 2nd letter clearly shows.
There’s only the one church that Jesus founded and that Paul refers to, but nowhere in all it’s writings does it ever teach that the scriptures are the final authority, but it does teach that the church is, as the passages I have cited show.
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avenger
Guest
I am not dodging tough guy, so back up a bit. Because you cant handle what I am saying, dont act all grandiose. I am making a direct challenge to the papacy, and all your semantics doesnt change anything. Was Paul there during Jesus’ ministry? Did he not found many churches before even showing up in Jerusalem? Where in 2 Timothy are you referring?
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Church_Militant
Guest
Show me in these passages where scripture is named as the final authority. It’s not there and so far you have not made you case at all, but dodged it and tried to misdirect the discussion. A tactic that won’t work with me at all at all.
I showed you from Jude’s epistle, so don’t try to play that either.
The things that Jude cited are nowhere found in the Old Testament, yet he teaches them as verifiable facts.
Irrelevant, this is not a point of contention. The point here is that Catholics will not(and should note ever) have to support what they believe and practice from Sola Scriptura because that doctrine is a fundamental error.
A
avenger
Guest
Answering is dodging? No it is not the answer you want. Dont try semantics, or even worse, try to brow beat me. You are noway good enough to pull that on me so dont try it.Show me in these passages where scripture is named as the final authority. It’s not there and so far you have not made you case at all, but dodged it and tried to misdirect the discussion. A tactic that won’t work with me at all at all.I showed you from Jude’s epistle, so don’t try to play that either.
The things that Jude cited are nowhere found in the Old Testament, yet he teaches them as verifiable facts.Irrelevant, this is not a point of contention. The point here is that Catholics will not(and should note ever) have to support what they believe and practice from Sola Scriptura because that doctrine is a fundamental error.
You showed NOTHING that shows the church is the FINAL authority,other than your misinterpretation of the Scripture. Funny, you dont want to acknowledge Scripture as the authority, yet you refer to it. Where exactly did I misdirect the discussion, or are you just to slow to keep up? You want to rely on what yuo call tradition, fine keep it, erroneous as it is.
Look here:
bible.ca/sola-scriptura-apostolic-fathers.htm
Though you will not really read it with an open mind, or you will resort to attacking the author. Either way, you have not made your case either, as far as I am concerned. I know you are all happy with yourself, but…
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Right. Scripture alone was never taught for the first 350 years of Christianity (because until that time there was no canon of Scripture.) In fact, there were several Christian documents, such as the Didache, the Shepherd of Hermes, various letters attributed to the apostles, which were not considered forgeries or heresies but simply ‘uninspired’ Christian writing (as opposed to authentic inspired Scipture), and these writings in addition to oral teaching were used.
Further, while Scripture was ‘canon’ from approximately AD 380, most people were not literate until the 19th century in the industrial world. While literacy gradually ‘grew’ in the late Middle Ages, it was still not normative for the ‘common man’ and even less for women.
Scripture alone was never taught as Christian teaching. It’s a man-made doctrine that divides Christians and promulgates error.
Further, while Scripture was ‘canon’ from approximately AD 380, most people were not literate until the 19th century in the industrial world. While literacy gradually ‘grew’ in the late Middle Ages, it was still not normative for the ‘common man’ and even less for women.
Scripture alone was never taught as Christian teaching. It’s a man-made doctrine that divides Christians and promulgates error.
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