"The Catholic Church is wrong"

[HankZ]

You make certain assumptions here that Catholics do not catagorically believe. Such as Mary existed before Jesus. The title “Mother of God” or Theotokos which it originally was stated is a direct referrance to the Deity of Jesus. There were some early in church history who was saying Mary gave birth to a human not God himself. Some said that Jesus was “possessed” by the divine spirit. Others had some mystical merging where the human side disappeared all together in favor of Deity. Other said he was just a man. So Theotokos became the statement to show that Jesus was God from the begining so Mary gave birth to the divine. The man who is also God. Which later called another aspect into question how much God how much man? They eventually came up with the Doctrine that Jesus was totally divine and totally human without contradiction or loosing one aspect. Thats how the term came to be any way. Also do you think when you die that once you are in the presence of God you will be so overcome by his presence that you careless about other people and only bask in the Joy of God? No I disagree with this belief. “To be great in God’s kingdom you must be the servant of all” You can’t really do that if you’re just basking. Basking is self-centered. God wants us to be other centered. What do the angels do? They make petitions for us. Why would we not do that as well? Being in God’s presence doesn’t mean exclussion of everyone else but an inclusion of everyone (saved) and the opportunity to serve others as well as God. According to Catholic belief this is what Mary is doing constantly petitioning for mankind in humble obedience to God as she also basks in his glory. Finally, no one has any documents of what happened to Mary after the gospel stories we can follow her and John to Turkey but it stops there. There Catholics believe she was assumed up into heaven. And it is passed down by tradition. Othodox believe that she died but she was raised recieving the promise before us. (I may have that wrong but I’m not orthodox or Catholic) but before you say something about someone else’s belief learn a bit about it before making catagorical statements.

I can tell you beyond any question, that if Mary was worthy of the praise she is recieving, God’s word would be evident of that. Tradtions can and are wrong. Prayers done in repitition as the pages do, are wrong. The rosary is a long repitition of prayers to Mary. She might not be refered to as God, but these prayers given to her, treat her as such. I was a Catholic, went to catholic school, an alter boy for years, confermed, babtised, first communion, and told I did not belong in the church because I didn’t make a large enough payment to the church. I was refused mombership and they refused to babtise my son. I do have a little bit of knowledge of what I speak.
HankZ

 

[HankZ]

We mustn’t forget that Mary was close to the Apostles. She was with them at the Last Supper, she was at the foot of the Cross (only John was there with her), she was in the upper room, Jesus asked John to take care of her. She was there at Pentecost. You can imagine they must have loved her very much and when she was no longer with them they would have known that she was with God and they would have asked her to put in a good word for them.
*
Why would they ask her to put in a good word for them? They just spent 3 years in a very personal relationship with the Savior. If that doesn’t work they are out of luck.*

When has life ever run smoothly for everyone? Who on this earth has never had a cross to carry? Are you not aware that the early Christians were persecuted? That for the first 300 years every Pope was martyred? They were thrown to the lions. Or perhaps you do not believe that? Perhaps you deny history?
*
Mary was there from the very beginning.*
*
Do you mean that she traveled with Him everywhere He went?*

Perhaps I don’t know but John took care of her maybe in the same way anyone takes care of a Mother or family member. Mary also might have played a role in spreading the good news. Who knows? What is known is that she was always loved and venerated.

What about the numerous apparitions? Lourdes, Fatima etc?

*People can be decieved very easily.
*
*That is perfectly true and why the Church is scrupulously cautious about these things. Bernadette (as also the children at Fatima) was a very simple illiterate child and yet she was able to convey the messages given to her which proved the authenticity of the apparitions and her account of them. During the 150 years following the first apparitions the Church has only authenticated 66 miracles. There is a team of Doctors who study, examine, research, record every case reported to them (not all healings are reported and healings may be both physical and spiritual). The Doctors are not all Catholics, they also comprise Protestants and even Atheists. This is remarkable, as is the case with Fatima. You are not bound to believe this. This is our belief – we will not censure you for not believing – it is your prerogative.
*
*What about the miracles?
*
*What miracles are you refering to? As above –I am surprised you have never heard of these spectacular events as they have been documented and recorded.
*

You cannot dismiss Mother Mary out of hand like that. Many Protestants love her also and say the rosary.

*I do not know of anyone who believes that Jesus is the only way and yet waist(waste?) their time praying to a dead person. What dead person??? Catholics are taught that Mary didn’t die, but that is not found in scripture. If she was still alive, God’s word would give some indication if it mattered. Oh I see you do not believe that Jesus died for the forgiveness of sins and to earn our salvation, in the Resurrection, in Eternal Life? It would not make sense for Jesus to go to all that trouble for dead people!!! *
*
You do not do justice to yourself if you choose to ignore Mary!
*

Mary was a Godly woman, according to scripture. She was chosen by God to do a wonderful work. She was married, had several children,That is your interpretation lived her life, then she died. God’s word tells us it is appointed unto men, once to die, then the judgement.

Do you think Mary existed before God? What a question – of course not! How then did she become the mother of God? *That is easily explained – are you genuinely interested? If so let me know and I shall tell you. *Jesus, the Son of God, was born of her, but He existed since before the foundations of the earth. correct Do you believe that Mary can somehow pull favors from God for you? *Yes * She doesn’t know you. Mary is so enthralled with the fact she is in the presence of God that you mean nothing. Oh? Your relationship with God is all that matters for your eternity, same as was Mary. She trusted in God alone to Save her and He was faithful to her, as far as we know. Nothing says she was somehow removed from this earth before her time and that is a false teaching. That is your interpretation and belief. I do not hate anyone who believes this lie, but only telling you that it is a lie

Rather than telling me, how about showing me where these things are found and I can read it for myself? I can make up stories, but I use God’s word to show what is true. Why believe in a false story just because it has been told for a very long time? I understand if you don’t want to discuss this with me. I struggled to find proof with these same issues when I was a Catholic too.
HankZ

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Rather than telling me, how about showing me where these things are found and I can read it for myself? I can make up stories, but I use God’s word to show what is true. Why believe in a false story just because it has been told for a very long time? I understand if you don’t want to discuss this with me. I struggled to find proof with these same issues when I was a Catholic too.
HankZ

What is proof for you?

Does this describe you?

Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

 

[Cinette]

I can tell you beyond any question, that if Mary was worthy of the praise she is recieving, God’s word would be evident of that. Tradtions can and are wrong. Prayers done in repitition as the pages do, are wrong. The rosary is a long repitition of prayers to Mary. She might not be refered to as God, but these prayers given to her, treat her as such. I was a Catholic, went to catholic school, an alter boy for years, confermed, babtised, first communion, and told I did not belong in the church because I didn’t make a large enough payment to the church. I was refused mombership and they refused to babtise my son. I do have a little bit of knowledge of what I speak.
HankZ

*You might have been a cradle Catholic and gone through all the motions but you know little or nothing of the Faith as evidenced by the things you say. You reveal no knowledge at all of the Catholic Church. This may not be your fault. I repeat, if you have come to these forums to enquire and learn you will find many people who would be willing to oblige and who will go out of their way to explain.

But please do not become aggressive and insulting. You may have had a bad experience. This happens. On these forums you will encounter friendly people who are willing to engage you and answer all your questions. Some of us know more than others As for me I am a little like you. I was born into the Catholic Church and turned my back on the Church and God for 27 years and now I am back, loving it, learning a lot all the time.

Cinette *

 

[onenow1]

I can tell you beyond any question, that if Mary was worthy of the praise she is recieving, God’s word would be evident of that. Tradtions can and are wrong. Prayers done in repitition as the pages do, are wrong. The rosary is a long repitition of prayers to Mary. She might not be refered to as God, but these prayers given to her, treat her as such. I was a Catholic, went to catholic school, an alter boy for years, confermed, babtised, first communion, and told I did not belong in the church because I didn’t make a large enough payment to the church. I was refused mombership and they refused to babtise my son. I do have a little bit of knowledge of what I speak.
HankZ

=onenow1, Well this is your side of the story !

=onenow1, this is what Jesus gave to the apostles below.
No new testament ! Some folks read the bible, come away feeling forgiven, an emotional false high, the below verse testifies to to this.

“When He said this, He breathed upon them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit; whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.’”
John 20:22-23. See also Matt 16:19 and Matt 18:18.

Jesus said whose sins you retain, can someone elaborate on how this can be done by the apostles unless they know your sin ?

Peace, onenow1

 

[HankZ]

*You might have been a cradle Catholic and gone through all the motions but you know little or nothing of the Faith as evidenced by the things you say. You reveal no knowledge at all of the Catholic Church. This may not be your fault. I repeat, if you have come to these forums to enquire and learn you will find many people who would be willing to oblige and who will go out of their way to explain.

But please do not become aggressive and insulting. You may have had a bad experience. This happens. On these forums you will encounter friendly people who are willing to engage you and answer all your questions. Some of us know more than others As for me I am a little like you. I was born into the Catholic Church and turned my back on the Church and God for 27 years and now I am back, loving it, learning a lot all the time.

Cinette *

What makes you believe that Mary is more than a normal everyday Saint who can help your salvation more then Jesus? If not, why not speak directly to Jesus in your prayers? The scriptures tell us that Jesus is the only way. Why do you not agree with the bible?
HankZ

 

[sambos671]

I can tell you beyond any question, that if Mary was worthy of the praise she is recieving, God’s word would be evident of that. Tradtions can and are wrong. Prayers done in repitition as the pages do, are wrong. The rosary is a long repitition of prayers to Mary. She might not be refered to as God, but these prayers given to her, treat her as such. I was a Catholic, went to catholic school, an alter boy for years, confermed, babtised, first communion, and told I did not belong in the church because I didn’t make a large enough payment to the church. I was refused mombership and they refused to babtise my son. I do have a little bit of knowledge of what I speak.
HankZ

You were improperly Catachized. Just a romp through the CCC should show you that. The Church recognizes you once you are baptised. You’re definition of Devotion and worship also does not match the Catholic Church’s deffinition.

 

[HankZ]

=onenow1, Well this is your side of the story !

=onenow1, this is what Jesus gave to the apostles below.
No new testament ! Some folks read the bible, come away feeling forgiven, an emotional false high, the below verse testifies to to this.

“When He said this, He breathed upon them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit; whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.’”
John 20:22-23. See also Matt 16:19 and Matt 18:18.

Jesus said whose sins you retain, can someone elaborate on how this can be done by the apostles unless they know your sin ?

Peace, onenow1

Are you saying that starving kids are less important then giving to the church that which I did not have? This reminds me of when Jesus said, “Well(correctly) did Isaiah speak of you, They whorship me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.”
What sin did my son commit, that he should have his sins retained?
HankZ

 

[HankZ]

You were improperly Catachized. Just a romp through the CCC should show you that. The Church recognizes you once you are baptised. You’re definition of Devotion and worship also does not match the Catholic Church’s deffinition.

Does this mean the priest was wrong? I don’t get what your saying.
HankZ

 

[sambos671]

I left the Catholic church at 15 for many of the same reasons. The people can be a hinderance. But the scripture says that there will be weeds in the grain.

 

[sambos671]

Does this mean the priest was wrong? I don’t get what your saying.
HankZ

If the priest said that you were not part of the church based on your giving the priest was in error. And the bishop needs to be told of this slight.

 

[HankZ]

If the priest said that you were not part of the church based on your giving the priest was in error. And the bishop needs to be told of this slight.

Truely, I praise God for this. Because I was not part of the RCC anymore, years later, I was able to come to know Jesus in a personal way. I thought people who said that when I was a Catholic were out of their minds. I now understand the truth and try to share it with those who are willing to hear what God has done. I can give you the information if you want to pursue it, but it does not matter to me.
HankZ

 

[sambos671]

Truely, I praise God for this. Because I was not part of the RCC anymore, years later, I was able to come to know Jesus in a personal way. I thought people who said that when I was a Catholic were out of their minds. I now understand the truth and try to share it with those who are willing to hear what God has done. I can give you the information if you want to pursue it, but it does not matter to me.
HankZ

My story is similar yet different. I already know Protestant preceps. I left the RCC when I was 15 because no one I knew actually followed their faith, and believed the myths more than the actual teachings of the Chruch. In fact, I would hear more about the Saints and Mary than Jesus. I’ve been studying scripture and have a personal relationship with Jesus ever since becoming protestant. yet serious study of the Bible, how it was put together and reading from the early church father leads me to believe that the chruch wasn’t all that wrong but the practitioners I met were. What you may find amazing is the number of Catholics who have a personal relationship with Jesus and are truley christian. The unfortunate truth is that Many Catholics have been misled by their families and priest that no more understood what they believe than pagans do. Unfortunately, this is true of some of the clergy though not all. However, a quick study of Church history will show it is true.

 

[Cinette]

What makes you believe that Mary is more than a normal everyday Saint who can help your salvation more then Jesus? If not, why not speak directly to Jesus in your prayers? The scriptures tell us that Jesus is the only way. Why do you not agree with the bible?
HankZ

What makes you believe that Mary is more than a normal everyday Saint who can help your salvation more then Jesus? If not, why not speak directly to Jesus in your prayers? The scriptures tell us that Jesus is the only way. Why do you not agree with the bible?

**Firstly, Mary had to be pure and spotless to become the Mother of Jesus. Jesus is both Divine and Human. He is the second person of the Blessed Trinity – God the Son. (Today is the feast of the Immaculate Conception, by the way)

Luke 1:35 “The Angel said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be holy, he will be called Son of God” Jesus was the son of God and the son of Mary – she was the Mother of the human Jesus and the Divine Jesus. Thus she was called Mother of God.

Luke 1:43-44 “And why has this happened to me that the Mother of my Lord comes to me? 44 For as soon as I heard the sound of your greeting, the child in my womb leaped for joy.”

Something very special was unfolding in that encounter of Mary with her cousin Elizabeth. Elizabeth was pregnant with John the Baptist – the child leapt within her and she was inspired because she knew Mary was pregnant before a word was uttered and……she identified Mary as “the Mother of my Lord” Who is this Lord she is referring to? God of course!

Can you not see from these scripture passages the incredible evidence?

PRAYER – There are many different kind of prayer but the two essential forms of prayer are: Prayer of Worship and Praise and this is reserved only for God. The other kind of prayer is intercessory prayer ie asking someone to pray for you. Don’t people ask you for prayers all the time? Let’s look at the Hail Mary for example:

Hail Mary, Full of grace, the Lord is with thee - Luke 1:28
(words uttered by the Angel Gabriel)

Blessed art thou amongst women and Blessed is the Fruit of thy womb, Jesus - Luke 1:42
(uttered by cousin Elizabeth)

Holy Mary, Mother of God pray for us sinners, Now and at the hour of our death, Amen
(prayer of intercession)

ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT?
**

 

[HankZ]

My story is similar yet different. I already know Protestant preceps. I left the RCC when I was 15 because no one I knew actually followed their faith, and believed the myths more than the actual teachings of the Chruch. In fact, I would hear more about the Saints and Mary than Jesus. I’ve been studying scripture and have a personal relationship with Jesus ever since becoming protestant. yet serious study of the Bible, how it was put together and reading from the early church father leads me to believe that the chruch wasn’t all that wrong but the practitioners I met were. What you may find amazing is the number of Catholics who have a personal relationship with Jesus and are truley christian. The unfortunate truth is that Many Catholics have been misled by their families and priest that no more understood what they believe than pagans do. Unfortunately, this is true of some of the clergy though not all. However, a quick study of Church history will show it is true.

Preach it brother! That is the point Luther made when he left too.
HankZ

 

[HankZ]

What makes you believe that Mary is more than a normal everyday Saint who can help your salvation more then Jesus? If not, why not speak directly to Jesus in your prayers? The scriptures tell us that Jesus is the only way. Why do you not agree with the bible?

**Firstly, Mary had to be pure and spotless to become the Mother of Jesus. Jesus is both Divine and Human. He is the second person of the Blessed Trinity – God the Son. (Today is the feast of the Immaculate Conception, by the way)

Luke 1:35 “The Angel said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be holy, he will be called Son of God” Jesus was the son of God and the son of Mary – she was the Mother of the human Jesus and the Divine Jesus. Thus she was called Mother of God.

Luke 1:43-44 “And why has this happened to me that the Mother of my Lord comes to me? 44 For as soon as I heard the sound of your greeting, the child in my womb leaped for joy.”

Something very special was unfolding in that encounter of Mary with her cousin Elizabeth. Elizabeth was pregnant with John the Baptist – the child leapt within her and she was inspired because she knew Mary was pregnant before a word was uttered and……she identified Mary as “the Mother of my Lord” Who is this Lord she is referring to? God of course!

Can you not see from these scripture passages the incredible evidence?

PRAYER – There are many different kind of prayer but the two essential forms of prayer are: Prayer of Worship and Praise and this is reserved only for God. The other kind of prayer is intercessory prayer ie asking someone to pray for you. Don’t people ask you for prayers all the time? Let’s look at the Hail Mary for example:

Hail Mary, Full of grace, the Lord is with thee - Luke 1:28
(words uttered by the Angel Gabriel)

Blessed art thou amongst women and Blessed is the Fruit of thy womb, Jesus - Luke 1:42
(uttered by cousin Elizabeth)

Holy Mary, Mother of God pray for us sinners, Now and at the hour of our death, Amen
(prayer of intercession)

ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT?
**

I agree that this was marvalous. Why do you believe Mary had to be spotless? This is not found in the bible. Nor does anyone ask for the dead to intercede for them, but to approach the Throne boldly, with prayers and petitions. Why waiste time praying for another to pray for you. Why wouldn’t you go right to the Big Guy? If you are one of His own, you can come to Him. If you go through another and foresake the Gospel, aren’t you telling God, I know better then you?
HankZ

 

[fbl9]

Preach it brother! That is the point Luther made when he left too.
HankZ

that is still no reason to leave and create your own beleif system…just a prideful excuse…i am so much better then they,in fact i am so much better i will leave them and gather unto myself a group,of people who are better then them…pride is the only reason for the existence of these many and errorness churches of today.

 

[sambos671]

Preach it brother! That is the point Luther made when he left too.
HankZ

Luther didn’t leave he was kicked out. He was excluded from fellowship.

 

[HankZ]

that is still no reason to leave and create your own beleif system…just a prideful excuse…i am so much better then they,in fact i am so much better i will leave them and gather unto myself a group,of people who are better then them…pride is the only reason for the existence of these many and errorness churches of today.

You could have a point. However, how much biblical truth have you stuffed in order to remain in the Catholic faith, or do you claim to agree with everything the church teaches? Luther tried to change the church from within, but they refused to listen to reason.

 

[HankZ]

You could have a point. However, how much biblical truth have you stuffed in order to remain in the Catholic faith, or do you claim to agree with everything the church teaches? Luther tried to change the church from within, but they refused to listen to reason.

After naailing his 99 thesis to the church, they excumunicated him. He already left.