"The Catholic Church Just Destroyed Itself with Logic"

[StudentMI]

We’re expected to use our examination of conscience to determine what might be a mortal sin.
I don’t have any problem picking out my sins that involve grave matter and might be mortal vs my sins that are highly likely to be venial. Then again I’ve been at this a long time.

I personally find that a bit reckless but whatever.

I have a question that might be a bit off topic but I’d like to ask. Let’s say a guy is on his deathbed and makes a confession. Then afterward a nurse comes in that he finds attractive. He admires her beauty and mistakenly believes he committed a mortal sin of lust. However it was only venal. We know this. Objectively it is so. However he begins to despair of ever being saved, and then he dies. Does he go to hell for despairing?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

God is fairly legalistic with salvation.

Huh? Not the God I know. His Church sets forth some rules, but that’s not the same as God being “legalistic”.

Furthermore, God himself is NOT bound by Church rules, and can save whom he wants, but the Church rules are there to help us and provide us with some reassurance. Humans need rules to keep them on the right path, it’s like guard rails so we don’t go flying off into the unknown. But the Church can’t say for sure who is damned, and only says people are saved in the case of canonized saints.

 

[StudentMI]

Huh? Not the God I know. His Church sets forth some rules, but that’s not the same as God being “legalistic”.

Furthermore, God himself is NOT bound by Church rules, and can save whom he wants, but the Church rules are there to help us and provide us with some reassurance.

And what of Christ who said few find the road to salvation while many enter the road of destruction?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

How does that support your contention that God is “legalistic”?

It’s pretty obvious people do terrible things to each other all day every day and often just ignore God. Nothing legalistic about that observation.

 

[StudentMI]

How does that support your contention that God is “legalistic”?

My point was that for centuries we were taught that salvation was a pretty legalistic matter. Now we’re taught different.

Now please answer the question about Christ.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I put an answer to the Christ part above.

“It’s pretty obvious…” no it’s not. I would say you have kind of a jaundiced/ incomplete understanding of Church teaching on salvation. Perhaps if you get deeper into it you will better understand, because you seem to see it as “checking the boxes”.

 

[StudentMI]

I put an answer to the Christ part above.

“It’s pretty obvious…” no it’s not. I would say you have kind of a jaundiced/ incomplete understanding of Church teaching on salvation. Perhaps if you get deeper into it you will better understand, because you seem to see it as “checking the boxes”.

I didn’t say the it’s pretty obvious part. You did.

Do I have a ‘jaundiced’ view of salvation if I believe few are saved, which is what many saints taught and what the Gospel seems to say?

 

[bob4]

So what odds are you comfortable with: 5% (1 in 20)? 10% chance they’re in hell?

We cannot take God’s mercy for granted and I’m not advocating that. So, I’m comfortable with the Church’s position in CCC 1861" - "we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God” an example of which I believe we see in the following link:

Unbaptized Infants | EWTN

 

[StudentMI]

We cannot take God’s mercy for granted and I’m not advocating that. So, I’m comfortable with the Church’s position in CCC 1861" - "we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God”…

What about the Gospels where Jesus says few find the road and the saints throughout the ages who said most of humanity goes to hell?

 

[MNathaniel]

Perhaps if you get deeper into it you will better understand, because you seem to see it as “checking the boxes”.

From the sounds of it I was way “deeper into it” back before I became catholic and was forced, by the Catholic Church, to start “checking the boxes”.

Before Catholicism I could just think along the lines of: Take care of the sick. Feed the hungry. Pray from simple love of God, privately confessing and repenting on the spot of sin. Trust God to know my heart and trust all souls to the care of the God who loves them.

After becoming catholic, suddenly all these externally imposed boxes to check: “Attend Sunday Mass as an obligation. Confess your sins to a priest if available or your contrition doesn’t count. And oh, by the way, turns out baptism doesn’t count if a minister said “we” instead of “I”.”

These aren’t ‘imagined’ check boxes being projected onto the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church imposes these check boxes.

 

[Adairio]

The Friendly Atheist has posted so much misinformation, it’s hard to comprehend how anyone could take it seriously.

 

[stpurl]

Why do you think the Church ‘imposes the boxes?” Do you think this is something that Jesus never asked?

 

[MNathaniel]

Why do you think the Church ‘imposes the boxes?” Do you think this is something that Jesus never asked?

Please refer back up-thread to the comments I referenced.

One user accused another user of trying to check boxes, as if this suggests they’re not deep enough in Catholicism.

I’m merely pointing out that the Church does ask us to check boxes. Not merely to check boxes, but yes to check boxes.

I’ll leave it to others on this thread to argue over whether she should or shouldn’t.

 

[AlbMagno]

The point wasn’t that the Church doesn’t ask us to do certain things to assure Salvation, but that these things are not exclusive, and people outside of this things (the Sacraments) can be saved, and people who thought they received this things but didn’t can also be saved.

A “check box” mentality would be thinking that God would say: “Sorry, but the Deacon that baptized you used We instead of I and no one noticed, so you didn’t check the box and will go to Hell”.

Or: “Sorry, you were a really good person, but you were born in 1300 B.C. and didn’t meet any Jew or Christian, so you will go to Hell.”

Or worse yet: “I would love to save you, but the path is narrow and is already filled at 49.9%, so, to fulfil my prophecy, I will have to send you to Hell.”

There is a difference between God (through the Church) asking us to receive the Sacraments and us thinking that’s literally the only way to be saved.

 

[AlbMagno]

You said it better than I could. Thanks.

 

[bob4]

“Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.” Mt 7:13-14 (Lk 13:23-34)
I don’t understand specifically what it is you are asking about this quote.
From what I’ve read, the two gates represent the choices to either follow Christ or not and the consequences of either choice.
It would be beneficial, I think, if you would name a few of the saints whom you believe made the claim that most of humanity goes to hell.

 

[Gorgias]

The difference you’re highlighting (Sacramental vs. non-sacramental) doesn’t seem to be established in the Catechism (or anywhere else) AFAIK.

THAT’S BECAUSE THE CATECHISM DOESN’T ADDRESS OTHER ECCLESIAL COMMUNITIES AND THEIR BELIEFS!!!

God understands when a deacon and a priest are working together and they say “We”.

Except that the rituals are pretty explicit that only one cleric baptizes. (And, in nuptial ceremonies, that the cleric who asks for the expression of consent is the one who receives it, and then articulate the vows of the couple.). So… “we” is never part of the sacraments of the Church!

I’m tempted to ask “what if they didn’t know the priest was invalid but they did remember their mortal sins” (e.g. people generally don’t forget their sexual misdeeds even decades later) but we’ve been down “What if Road” enough in this thread and I’ll refrain from here.

My understanding is that some folks will re-confess sins that had been previously confessed and absolved. The degree of pastoral care that a priest confessor must exhibit is truly amazing and humbling!

I personally find that a bit reckless but whatever.

When I’ve taught (CCD / RCIA), my advice has always been “if you think it’s a serious sin, confess it explicitly; you don’t need to decide whether it’s mortal or not.”

He admires her beauty and mistakenly believes he committed a mortal sin of lust. However it was only venal. We know this. Objectively it is so.

OK – so, your thought experiment is “what if a person mistakenly thinks his sin is mortal, but it’s really just venial; does he go to hell for it”? No – if he has perfect contrition, then he’s forgiven (and if he never has the chance to get to confession, that’s ok – but if he does have the opportunity, he should take advantage of the opportunity).

And what of Christ who said few find the road to salvation while many enter the road of destruction?

Note that this speaks of the actions of humans, and not of the mercy of God. Might God grant mercy to someone who had – at one point – “entered the road of destruction”? Of course!

One does get that impression of him, no?

 

[StudentMI]

OK – so, your thought experiment is “what if a person mistakenly thinks his sin is mortal, but it’s really just venial; does he go to hell for it”? No – if he has perfect contrition, then he’s forgiven (and if he never has the chance to get to confession, that’s ok – but if he does have the opportunity, he should take advantage of the opportunity).

No you cut off the part about despairing. So this isn’t an answer.

 

[Gorgias]

No you cut off the part about despairing. So this isn’t an answer.

It really is.


Mistakenly believing oneself to be in a state of mortal sin is not a mortal sin. Therefore, if one dies, mistakenly thinking themselves to be in mortal sin, he does not lose his salvation.

This is what you’re asking, right?

Or, by “despairing”, are you trying to say that he ends his own life? That might – or might not! – be a different story.

 

[StudentMI]

Or, by “despairing”, are you trying to say that he ends his own life? That might – or might not! – be a different story.

You know what I mean by despair. I said nothing about suicide.