The Catholic Church known today is NOT the same Catholic Church in the time of the apostles?

[CatholicZ09]

So, I heard an argument recently from protestants that the Catholic Church as it is known today is NOT the same church in the time of the early Church Fathers, apostles, etc. Doesn’t that contradict what Jesus says in Matthew 16:18?

And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Another accusation that I hear is that Constantine founded the Roman Catholic Church, which I find kind of bizarre because early writings dating to 107 AD state the Church as “Catholic”.

 

[Lancer]

How intriguing!..Now let them provide their proofs…evidence. Since they are refuting a historical claim…the ball is in their court!

Pax Christi

 

[KathleenGee]

That spin about Constantine…it is pretty old.

Our liturgy, the Eucharist, the episcopacy, the Apostles Creed were the forms throughout the ancient Christian world by around 100 AD. A young woman was in our Catholic paper a number of years ago. She grew up in an anti-Catholic family. She got hold eventually of ancient catechetical beliefs. But she was shocked to see the same beliefs in our modern universal catechism.

Constantine came about through a dream about Christianity, the symbol of the cross, using it at battle, which he did, and then won a war. Prior to him, were two Roman emperors who did the worst damage to Christianity, pretty much destroying about every church and killing many bishops.

Constantine rebuilt many churches, and made them prominent for the bishops and priests so that the teachings of Christ would be given great prominence to society. A million pagans converted. Constantine made Sunday a day of rest for both Christians and non. He was a temporal ruler, he fought more wars and political battles, and did not become a baptized Christian until a few days before his death.

Even if you were to back to these sources and show them history, they would reject it.
So I would pray for them and move on…

 

[ConstantineTG]

Depends what they mean. Technically its not because the Rites today have developed for over 2000 years.

 

[Radical]

So, I heard an argument recently from protestants that the Catholic Church as it is known today is NOT the same church in the time of the early Church Fathers, apostles, etc. Doesn’t that contradict what Jesus says in Matthew 16:18?

It might be a problem for the way in which you interpret Matt 16:18…but it would be no problem at all for their interpretation of Matt 16:18.

Another accusation that I hear is that Constantine founded the Roman Catholic Church,…

I’ve never heard that one…except from Catholics complaining about Protestants.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Depends what they mean. Technically its not because the Rites today have developed for over 2000 years.

The Rites are not the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. She is the same, original Church founded by Jesus Christ for the salvation of the world, just as an oak tree is genetically the same as the acorn – grown, and continuing to grow and expand.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The Rites are not the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. She is the same, original Church founded by Jesus Christ for the salvation of the world, just as an oak tree is genetically the same as the acorn – grown, and continuing to grow and expand.

Right. That is why I said that it depends what they mean. The externals change, they develop and adapt to the culture. The core is always the same.

 

[CatholicZ09]

Right. That is why I said that it depends what they mean. The externals change, they develop and adapt to the culture. The core is always the same.

I think that what they were implying was that the current Catholic Church is in err from the “original.”

 

[JackVk]

I’ve never heard that one…except from Catholics complaining about Protestants.

That’s because it’s a very intellectually dishonest claim, and is only used by fire-breathing anti-Catholics, which I find from my own experience to be a very small portion of non-Catholic Christians.

 

[ConstantineTG]

That spin about Constantine…it is pretty old.

Our liturgy, the Eucharist, the episcopacy, the Apostles Creed were the forms throughout the ancient Christian world by around 100 AD. A young woman was in our Catholic paper a number of years ago. She grew up in an anti-Catholic family. She got hold eventually of ancient catechetical beliefs. But she was shocked to see the same beliefs in our modern universal catechism.

Constantine came about through a dream about Christianity, the symbol of the cross, using it at battle, which he did, and then won a war. Prior to him, were two Roman emperors who did the worst damage to Christianity, pretty much destroying about every church and killing many bishops.

Constantine rebuilt many churches, and made them prominent for the bishops and priests so that the teachings of Christ would be given great prominence to society. A million pagans converted. Constantine made Sunday a day of rest for both Christians and non. He was a temporal ruler, he fought more wars and political battles, and did not become a baptized Christian until a few days before his death.

Even if you were to back to these sources and show them history, they would reject it.
So I would pray for them and move on…

You can even say that Constantine wasn’t Roman Catholic. He moved the empire and the center of Christianity to Constantinople, previously known as Byzantium. He was a Byzantine-Greek Christian.

 

[CatholicZ09]

That’s because it’s a very intellectually dishonest claim, and is only used by fire-breathing anti-Catholics, which I find from my own experience to be a very small portion of non-Catholic Christians.

Typically, I hear this said by the fundamentalists.

 

[Fink]

You can even say that Constantine wasn’t Roman Catholic. He moved the empire and the center of Christianity to Constantinople, previously known as Byzantium. He was a Byzantine-Greek Christian.

And he wasnt even Baptised until hed almost croaked.

CatholicZ09:
Yep. Like Jack Chick: “Constantine was the first Pope.”.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

It might be a problem for the way in which you interpret Matt 16:18…but it would be no problem at all for their interpretation of Matt 16:18.

There’s only one correct interpretation of Scripture – and that’s the meaning the author intended to convey. Since the Church selected 27 of her own writings, canonized them, and named them the New Testament when she was nearly 400 years old, she knows what they mean.

Protestants – who came along from the 16th to the 21st centuries – give varying opinion(s) about what they mean. You’re entitled to your opinion. When your opinion and the Catholic Church’s understanding are the same, you’ll know your opinion is correct.

I’ve never heard that one…except from Catholics complaining about Protestants.

Do you mean that Catholics complain that Constantine founded all those thousands of Protestant ecclesial communities?

 

[Jim_Dandy]

You can even say that Constantine wasn’t Roman Catholic. He moved the empire and the center of Christianity to Constantinople, previously known as Byzantium. He was a Byzantine-Greek Christian.

Do I remember correctly that Constantine was baptized by an Arian?

 

[Lokabrenna]

Well, do you still worship in house churches–no, I don’t mean a “house of God”, I mean celebrate Mass in someone’s house?

I certainly don’t recall anyone conducting ceremonies in catacombs, either.

Oh, and there’s not much by way of persecution (at least in North America).

From my perspective, I’d say the present day Catholic Church owes more to the Medieval European Church than the Christianity that was around before Constantine made it the official religion of the Roman Empire.

Doctrinally, I’d also say that it changed quite a bit (particularly after it went from a small sect to an institution). Marian theology in particular was greatly expanded in the Medieval church (although scholars disagree as to whether the Marian cult elevated or lowered the status of women).

I guess I don’t really understand this obsession with trying to make the church seem changeless. All religions change, but of course, I’m a Pagan, and modern day Paganisms are very far-removed from their ancient counterparts.

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

Well, do you still worship in house churches–no, I don’t mean a “house of God”, I mean celebrate Mass in someone’s house?

I certainly don’t recall anyone conducting ceremonies in catacombs, either.

Oh, and there’s not much by way of persecution (at least in North America).

From my perspective, I’d say the present day Catholic Church owes more to the Medieval European Church than the Christianity that was around before Constantine made it the official religion of the Roman Empire.

Doctrinally, I’d also say that it changed quite a bit (particularly after it went from a small sect to an institution). Marian theology in particular was greatly expanded in the Medieval church (although scholars disagree as to whether the Marian cult elevated or lowered the status of women).

I guess I don’t really understand this obsession with trying to make the church seem changeless. All religions change, but of course, I’m a Pagan, and modern day Paganisms are very far-removed from their ancient counterparts.

lol Lokabrenna that’s some funny stuff, I think you would make a good stand up comedian.

But on a serious note, Christian are the most persecuted group worldwide. And the Holy Spirit has rest in those area where the Church despite being persecuted is growing - very similar circumstance to the Early Church.

 

[Lokabrenna]

But on a serious note, Christian are the most persecuted group worldwide. And the Holy Spirit has rest in those area where the Church despite being persecuted is growing - very similar circumstance to the Early Church.

I will have to respectfully disagree, in North America, at least, Christians are NOT persecuted. Some Christians might have persecution complexes, but I’ve never heard of a Christian being fired from their job or denied custody of their kids just for BEING Christian. In places like China? Sure, but so are all other “foreign” religions. Interestingly, once they stopped persecuting Christians in Japan, the number of Christians in that country started to decline, but Japan has never really had a good relationship with Christianity to start with.

I contrast, members of minority religions (including Pagans, like me) put our jobs and children at risk, just for being who we are. There’s a good reason many of us stay in the “broom closet”. I could give you a few anecdotes (including one woman whose house was burnt to the ground because her fanatical neighbours wanted to get rid of the “witch” who lived there) but anecdotal evidence is spotty at best, so you probably wouldn’t believe me anyways.

Anyways, this is getting off topic, sorry everyone.

 

[KathleenGee]

If people are familiar with the Mass said today in the Roman rite, and read the Mass as described by St. Justin the Martyr in 155 AD to the Roman Emperor, the tone, the intent, the spirit is the same as the one said today.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Do I remember correctly that Constantine was baptized by an Arian?

Quite possible. But we already concluded that a valid baptism doesn’t have to be done by a Catholic minister. So it doesn’t matter.

 

[Petergee]

Do I remember correctly that Constantine was baptized by an Arian?

Yes you did. Not only did Constantine NEVER even become a Catholic himself, he exerted great efforts in trying to pressure the bishops at the Council of Nicea to endorse Arianism over Catholicism. When he spectacularly failed at this, he then tried to depose Catholic bishops and replace them with Arians.

Of course civic rulers like Constantine found Arianism (the belief that Jesus was something less than the supreme omnipotent God) much more acceptable than Catholicism as it didn’t threaten their own desires to do whatever they wanted without being answerable to any supreme authority.