The Catholic Church teaches that a woman, Mary, is the most important human that ever existed?

[Harry123]

We always hear from secularists that the church hates women (no women priests etc). Is a potential argument against people who say this that the Church actually venerates a woman as the most important human being that ever existed?

Let me explain…

Adam sinned, Eve sinned, Moses sinned, John the Baptist sinned, Peter sinned.

However, Mary (as the new eve) has never sinned and so she is in a position higher than any other human being (male or female). While we always hear about the 12 apostles, and the writers of the bible who were all men, Mary (a woman) is actually above all these.

Jesus was of course more important than Mary. However Jesus was both human and God. So the most important human being that has ever existed in human history (that was only a human being) is a woman - Mary.

So the Church venerates a woman as the most important human being that has ever existed (that was only a human) and not only this but the Church requires every Catholic to accept this (ie the various doctrines of Mary are obligatory as are attending the various holy days associated with these doctrines).

Rather than the Church hating women, it would appear to me to be quiet the opposite. I mean if you were to ask a secularist who the most important human being was in human history, they more than likely would name a man (Abraham Lincoln or Isaac Newton etc etc). The Catholic Church however names a woman.

 

[DeepDeepTrouble3]

That’s right. Amongst mortals, the Blessed Virgin is in position number one.

 

[Lea101]

It’s an emotional thing.

As a woman, I don’t like that rebuttal (“but Mary”) because she was sinless and she gave birth to God while being a virgin (so she is not like us, if that makes sense. The rest of us aren’t perfect). Some radical feminists would argue that it’s suspicious that she is a virgin and a mother, two things that women, historically, were only “good for”. Not sure how to articulate it, but I don’t really care much for it since I don’t think the Church made her up.

It also avoids the actual issue they want to look at, the treatment of women, not a woman. Even the most chauvinistic person I could think of loved his mother. It’s not necessarily a good argument. Horrid Christians hated Jews but Jesus was a jew. You get my point.

To argue against sexism, you should be focusing on its views towards women in general imo (so bring out the saints, what jp2 said etc)

 

[Tis_Bearself]

As a woman, I don’t like that rebuttal (“but Mary”) because she was sinless and she gave birth to God while being a virgin (so she is not like us, if that makes sense. The rest of us aren’t perfect).

I’m not surprised this was the first comment. I have heard this from women many times, that the “perfect” Mary is used to smack down other women who can never live up to the ideal she presents.

I’m not particularly bothered by Mary being held up as the ideal because 1) I love Mary, 2) I accept that she will always be “above” me in terms of her perfection and grace, 3) men have to live up to Jesus, who was the perfect, sinless, self-sacrificing man, yet nobody every seems to complain about that, and 4) there are plenty of other female role models among the female saints, many of whom did not lead lives like Mary’s.

 

[Mary888]

I think their arguing the Church here and yet be feminists it’s argumentation for sake of it. Is the name of this action sofism?
Some argue that the standard for women is just too high if she is the role model and other more flawed are better for little girls so they don’t feel the pressure. How can it be pressure if she is unique?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Some argue that the standard for women is just too high if she is the role model and other more flawed are better for little girls so they don’t feel the pressure. How can it be pressure if she is unique?

Exactly. There is no way I’m going to be a “virgin and mother” and I’m obviously never going to be the “mother of God”. The human aspects of Mary that I can emulate, such as love of Jesus, "saying yes to God’, etc. I try to do.

 

[Lea101]

I have seen guys use Mary as a tool to make women stay in their place. It’s not something I personally experienced but I can see why they would be upset.

My problem is that it doesn’t really answer the question. If a guy thinks I hate men because of the way I act and I respond ‘no I’m not sexist, I love Jesus and he’s a man!’, it isn’t really useful. I should show how my behaviors towards men are not hateful/patronizing etc. Hence the saints, scripture etc would be better. Mary should not be a standalone argument tbh, I can already picture quick thinking atheists/whoever knocking it down.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I have seen guys use Mary as a tool to make women stay in their place.

That is the man’s problem and a misuse of Mary. Any strong Catholic woman with a true love and understanding of Mary would see through that in about thirty seconds. Joseph didn’t treat his wife that way and neither would a decent man who truly loved Mary.

The fact that some men are abusive control freaks and misuse doctrines of the Church in their bad actions does not mean the Church is to blame.

 

[goout]

We always hear from secularists that the church hates women (no women priests etc). Is a potential argument against people who say this that the Church actually venerates a woman as the most important human being that ever existed?

Let me explain…

Adam sinned, Eve sinned, Moses sinned, John the Baptist sinned, Peter sinned.

However, Mary (as the new eve) has never sinned and so she is in a position higher than any other human being (male or female). While we always hear about the 12 apostles, and the writers of the bible who were all men, Mary (a woman) is actually above all these.

Jesus was of course more important than Mary. However Jesus was both human and God. So the most important human being that has ever existed in human history (that was only a human being) is a woman - Mary.

So the Church venerates a woman as the most important human being that has ever existed (that was only a human) and not only this but the Church requires every Catholic to accept this (ie the various doctrines of Mary are obligatory as are attending the various holy days associated with these doctrines).

Rather than the Church hating women, it would appear to me to be quiet the opposite. I mean if you were to ask a secularist who the most important human being was in human history, they more than likely would name a man (Abraham Lincoln or Isaac Newton etc etc). The Catholic Church however names a woman.

Christ is foolishness to the world.

The world values persons in a utilitarian way. "“What can you do?” to prove your worth. The world appeals to power and potency.

In the order of grace, who you are in the eyes of God is what matters. Your being is primary to your doing.

When the world criticizes the Church’s view of womanhood, the world is looking with worldly eyes, not through God’s eyes.

Mary is the Mother of the Church, and she did not sit on a chair in this world.

It’s worth noting that this philosophy is the same that supports pro-life causes.
We are not valued as persons for what we can do, but for who we are.
Even a pre-born child conceived with a severe handicap has full value in the eyes of God.

 

[Harry123]

I have heard this from women many times, that the “perfect” Mary is used to smack down other women who can never live up to the ideal she presents.

As a logical follow on from this, one could argue that it is wrong for someone to consider Isaac Newton as a role model because he might make men feel inferior that they can never live up to Newtons genius or Lionel Messi (worlds best soccer player) should not be considered a role model for men as men who are obese might feel they can never live up to Messis ideal. I thought the idea of a role model was admiring someone for who they are, not necessarily that you want to be like them or think you can be.

As a man, I admire Mary as a role model but it doesn’t mean I think I can be a virgin and a mother or that I am trying to be.

 

[De_Maria]

Second only to Jesus Christ.

 

[Lea101]

I don’t think anyone’s saying that here.

To defend the church, you would need to look at what they claim is hateful. For example, op mentioned women priests. The argument would then need to be focused on explaining how that isn’t sexist.

 

[Kei]

There’s nothing wrong with ideals. I mean, we all have Christ

 

[Lea101]

I think ideals can be bad if it’s used to restrict people unnecessarily, but that’s not really the issue. Some radical feminists have written papers on it. They go on and on about how the church having a virgin mom shows how female sexuality is so unthinkable blah blah blah. The problem with this is that they assume she was fictional.

As for the ideal part, I think there are women who were told to be extremely quiet and meek and work in the background like Mary did. They say Mary didn’t fight for equality so why should we and so on. Not necessarily the virgin and mother part, although. But like I said, it’s not the important argument here. If the treatment of women is at question, don’t follow up with the treatment of a woman who is virtually perfect and isn’t like the rest of them. It doesn’t fully answer the question. It’s something I had to deal with for so so long because all of my legitimate questions I had in my times of doubts were answered with “but Mary”. It’s rather dismissive!

Role models are usually people we strive to be like. We should be like her (to not sin), though

 

[Trishie]

The Church teaches that Jesus is the most important Person ever born into this world.
To say otherwise is to overlook that while Jesus is fully divine He is also fully human

.https://carm.org/jesus-two-natures

 

[Arkansan]

If someone’s objections to the Church are based on the idea that “traditional gender roles”=“misogyny”, I think a better counter would be to refute that false equivalence directly. An appeal to the Church’s Marian devotion is unlikely to be persuasive (at least if the person is intelligent), as the Church venerates Mary precisely for instantiating the virtues that feminists hate (e.g. chastity, obedience).

 

[Benadam]

you know that saying radical feminism use’ s to justify abortion?

“I’s my body and and I can do with it what I want.”

Parallel that with

"This is my body and it is given up for you."

Jesus was sacrificing His Body for His children in the womb The diciples (Pentecost as the day Birtht)

Satan mocks the words of consecration and the Last Supper every time we hear in this excuse for sin Mantra

“This is my body and it is not given up for you”

The feminism that is an evil imitation

So the anti-woman say’s to her children in the womb

Evil spirits mock Jesus with these words

"This is my body and it is not given up for you"

The same evil spirits would use the virtue and purity of Mary to abuse and control

 

[TheNeutral]

1. I accept that she will always be “above” me in terms of her perfection and grace, 3) men have to live up to Jesus, who was the perfect, sinless, self-sacrificing man, yet nobody every seems to complain about that,

Jesus is God though. That’s completely different than creating a Woman in a random place in time who was given “Max Grace (999)” hax at birth, who then goes on to win the #1 spot as though She earned it. Mary’s perfection is equivalent to “P1 is invincible” codes in video games; It’s neither fair nor balanced. Analogies aside, Mary was carried to the no.1 position by virtue of unique (read: impossible) decisions that could only be made by Her (pregnancy/perfection/mother of god).

God put all Men (who aren’t He Himself) at a natural disadvantage to the Woman. Everything Men have, they had to get it themselves (with the occasional assistance from God), meanwhile, the Woman gets carried by Men and God (look at the legal system where filing Sexual Harassment charges is as easy as slicing bread; Also look at how Men relate to Women vs themselves; Man-on-Man and Woman-on-Man violence is “all good”, but when a Man hits back, He gets jumped). As if these things weren’t already enough (fun fact: Men are expected to be providers/protectors, and 1 Peter 3:7 demonstrates that failure to venerate your wife results in hindered prayers (also, Men are commanded to love their Wives, but Wives aren’t commanded to love their Husbands. Additionally, non-piv climax is a mortal sin for Men, but not Women–and while we’re on it, Women get unlimited “climaxes”, Men get 1 per 45 mins - 1 hr on average)).

And for God’s final blow to the Human Male, He gives us Mary (John 19:27). Now what did Mary do, exactly? A: She held a passive love for God and stood at Calvary; That’s literally it–and now She’s the literal Queen of Heaven. This is chaos, anything goes (Joseph the Foster Father of Jesus doesn’t get any special titles or positions in Heaven btw; Also, His body didn’t get assumed). To think that no matter what I do, I will always be inferior to Mary (to no fault of my own) is a woeful thing. Once Mary breathed Her last breath, with it went the relevance of literally every other Saint. Mary doesn’t just invalidate me, She invalidates everyone who’s not God (including St.Joseph, Padre Pio, Therese Lisieux, Mother Theresa, 12 Apostles, All Priests, All Christians, St.Michael, all Angels, etc.)

If, at once, all creation perished but Mary, God will be satisfied.
Likewise, if ever God were to be forced to choose between destroying Mary or us, rest assured we’d be no more.

Poor Peter, Paul, etc. Sorry guys

 

[ChunkMonk]

That’s literally it

Yeah, she only gave her entire life and soul willingly to God, humbly and silently bore vicious slander against herself, her husband, and her child; watched her only son murdered in front of her and then meekly accepted her son giving her to his murderers.

Joseph the Foster Father of Jesus doesn’t get any special titles or positions in Heaven btw; Also, His body didn’t get assumed)

St. Joseph has an honored position in Heaven as the foster-father of Christ, and it is said that even now, in His full glory, Christ still recognizes that authority and denies St. Joseph nothing. tradition also holds that St. Joseph was given an abundance of Grace second only to Mary and never committed even a single intentional venial sin. Also it is held by tradition that St. Joseph was among the dead who rose with Christ and that he is currently in Heaven with body and spirit.

But yes, St. Joseph is inferior to Mary in Grace. A position he not only accepted, but rejoiced. A creature of Grace does not feel envy at a creature given greater Grace, but rejoices in it. St. Joseph loved Mary more than any of us ever have.

And Mary, who was greater than her husband in every way; intellect, Wisdom, Grace, love, and understanding, still humbly and meekly submitted to him in all things.

I will always be inferior to Mary (to no fault of my own)

It is your fault. I’m not being mean. It’s my fault too. The reason we aren’t like Mary is because we’re not even close to as good as Mary.

Likewise, if ever God were to be forced to choose between destroying Mary or us, rest assured we’d be no more.

That’s a really mean thing to say when He already had that choice and He gave her to us. He could have kept her to Himself, but He didn’t.

You need to show more humility and thankfulness. Mary chose to allow her own heart to be pierced by the sword for you. She loved you, you individually, so much that if you were the only sinner in all the world and the only one who needed to be saved, she would have bore all the pain and anguish and sorrow of Calvary for your sake alone.

How dare you speak of her like that?

 

[Hereiam]

Just posing a theological question, so no attacks please:

If no humans have or will be greater than our Blessed Mother, was Jesus wrong when he said (Matthew 11:11) “Amen. I say to you, among those born of women there has been none greater than John the Baptist,”. Obviously he was not including himself, but maybe because of his having devine and human natures, but was he also excluding his mother?

And what about Luke 8:21, are not all “who hear the word of God and act on it” as great as his mother?

Talk amongst yourself, but please be civil and charitable.