The catholic church to which Ignatius belonged...?

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Hey AP…
AmateurPianist;8583112]Ok.
The Catholic church of Ignatius split first I think to the Oriental Orthodox in 400s.
And this division sadly left the 5th century world with the one CC to which Ignatius belonged along with the Oriental Orthodox churches.
They there was the East/West split in the 1000s or so.
And sadly this schism left the 11th century world with the one CC to which Ignatius belonged along with the non-Chalcedonian Orthodox churches. By my count that is the one CC to which Ignatius belonged, the 5th century non-Chalcedonian churches and eventually the 11th century Eastern Orthodox churches.
And of course the Protestant reformation in the 1500s.
But they are all descendant churches of the Catholic church to which Ignatius belonged.
I totally agree with you. 👍 All Protestant churches are descendant churches of the one CC to which Ignatius belonged! 👍
 
LOL! Two minutes eh? Yeah right! You are a hoot! That quote was long before the earliest manuscripts that are referenced.

It is sad to me that so much of your understanding seems to hinge on supposed “interpolations”.

Let us look at another Church Father:

In the Acts of the Apostles: “Lo, here is water; what is there which hinders me from being baptized? Then said Philip, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest.”
(The Treatises of Cyprian, Treatise 12, Book 3, Section 43, Cyprian lived circa 208-258 A.D., became bishop of Carthage in North Africa circa 249 A.D. He was beheaded as a martyr for his faith)
What is your theory for the difference between texts?
 
Zealous scribes who did not believe in biblical innerancy OR simply did not care they were altering scripture.
Who were those zealous scribes who did not believe in Biblical inerrancy or care that they were altering scripture?
 
What is your theory for the difference between texts?
Differences? What differences? I pray and read the Scriptures. My Church codified the canon and the Holy Fathers interpret it for me. I do not seek differences nor do I waste time with “scholars” who theorize on interpolation…or these zealous scribes you speak about. If you think there are interpolations, set forth your reasons and references…one verse at a time…and we will look to the spirit filled saints, fathers and martyrs of the holy Church to see if your theories hold any water.

Otherwise…peace and blessings to you on your journey.
 
Who were those zealous scribes who did not believe in Biblical inerrancy or care that they were altering scripture?
Catholic/Orthodox monks for the most part. Although in the first two years I am not sure that we have solid data.
 
Differences? What differences? I pray and read the Scriptures. My Church codified the canon and the Holy Fathers interpret it for me. I do not seek differences nor do I waste time with “scholars” who theorize on interpolation…or these zealous scribes you speak about. If you think there are interpolations, set forth your reasons and references…one verse at a time…and we will look to the spirit filled saints, fathers and martyrs of the holy Church to see if your theories hold any water.

Otherwise…peace and blessings to you on your journey.
So why are some verses omitted in modern Catholic/Orthodox translations? You might not seek those differences but you recognize they exist.
 
Catholic/Orthodox monks for the most part. Although in the first two years I am not sure that we have solid data.
How could one have been a Catholic/Orthodox monk and at the same time, a non believer in Biblical inerrancy? Only the faithful believing monks were charged with the mission of copying, by hand, sacred scripture. Why would one even be a Catholic/Orthodox monk if one was not a believer?:confused:
 
Ok.

The Catholic church of Ignatius split first I think to the Oriental Orthodox in 400s.

They there was the East/West split in the 1000s or so.

And of course the Protestant reformation in the 1500s.

Those are the big ones…we won’t get into say the Waldenses or other groups.

But they are all descendant churches of the Catholic church to which Ignatius belonged.
So, you agree that the Catholic Church, today, is the remnant of the one Ignatius belonged to, minus the Oriental Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox and of course the Reformers. Is this a correct statement?
Your former posts made it sound like there were so many splits and dissenting churches that the original Church, to which Ignatius, belonged was lost. In the first 1100 years we see two churches fall out of sync with the See of Rome, where did the Church get lost at? The first 1500 years of the Church history was pretty simple, until the Reformers spiced it up. Last number I heard was 40,000 denominations, I could see losing something in a crowd of 40,000, but in a crowd of** three**? :confused:
I still fail to see where the Catholic Church of today is different than the Church of Ignatius’ time. Cardinal Newman said “To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant.”, I think he was on to something.🙂
 
So why are some verses omitted in modern Catholic/Orthodox translations? You might not seek those differences but you recognize they exist.
I have seen the example from the Roman Catholics in Acts 8:37. It is a bit unclear with them. The verse appears in the original Vulgate, but is omitted in the Nova Vulgata. But the Catechism references the verse in paragraph 454. Go figure.

Regardless, if you have some specific examples from Orthodox sources…set them forth with references…and we will look to the holy fathers.
 
So, you agree that the Catholic Church, today, is the remnant of the one Ignatius belonged to, minus the Oriental Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox and of course the Reformers. Is this a correct statement?
Maybe

None of us are in a position to speak for Ignatius. And unfortunately Ignatius being dead can not speak for himself.

So none of us are in a position to say just how Ignatius would respond if we coult bring him back to life and transport him through time.

It of course would be fun to speculate, but ultimately unprovable.

So with a lack of proof either way, a good starting assumption would be to assume that all are remnants of the church of Ignatius’s era.
 
After the Reformation instigated by understandable feelings about some aspects of the Church leadership and false teachings or abuses transcending cultures, we run into a continuous lineage of division, leading to modern day thousands of faiths, not to mention the individul “personal relationship with Jesus” believers. Alexander Campbell and his father began a new movement that is referred to as the “Restoration Movement” in my circle of friends and family. He broke from the Presbyterian Church leading to the newly created Disciples of Christ, which later broke over other issues resulting in a further break, creating the Christian Church and the Church of Christ. I’m Church of Christ.

Because of all the various claims many of us argue on this forum and in real life, the Church of Christ dismisses all denominations, including a new movement called the “non-denomination” churches. Traditionally, down south in particular, hey argue that all of them are “apostate.” All of the same anti-Catholic rhetoric is in tact. Ironically, many of their beliefs are quite similar to Catholicism. Different only in depth of understanding in my opinion. I’d have to write a book as to why I made this last statement though.

The “Restoration movement” writers, evangelists, say that the the break from truth started with Clement of Rome and gradually became less and less like the authentic 1st century church that Christ created. This belief is clearly annotated in a book my brother in law gave me after being married to my wife. It was a give to help me be a good leader in the family and to help support my new belief, grounded in the authority of the bible. I still possess it. After I began reading it, I became disturbed by some of the contradictions to beliefs I never shook as a former Catholic. In fact, I had already discerned certain beliefs that I believe are clearly found in scripture. I became distraut, as I did as a Catholic when Catholic priests and laity contradicted logical conclusions from reading Catholic documents. The reason I thought the Catholic Church was apostate was because the teachers in the Catholic Church were in fact teaching heresy - whether knowing or not.

On my continued life journey and upon discovering the existence of the early church fathers writing available online, my studies revealed to me that I was actually write on many key points I had figured out on my own accord, though isolated in interpretation. That led me to questions all that I believed and therefore I approached the teachings of the Church from an academic perspective, constantly trying to disprove it on the basis of teaching, not experience. Ironically, the Church teaches the experience is important, but not at the risk of losing face with the truth I say now. Metaphors, theology are wonderful tools. But they do not replace authentic truth when those theologies and analogies diverge from truth.

St. Ignatius, Clement of Rome, Polycarp, John Martyr, Ambrols, Eusibius, Athenaesius, and many other’s writings changed my historical view of what Christians actually believe, not what Protestants conjecture. In fact, most Catholics, including clergy, have a distorted view of the early church and innocently teach incorrectly many of the disciplines enforced today - married priests for one. Many Catholics erroneously believe that after Christ’s resurrection, the Apostles opened up confessionals to start listening to confessions. They also envision worship much different than thought of today. Some believe “the Church no longer teaches” various beliefs, which is what led me out the front door many years ago.
 
Maybe

but ultimately unprovable.

So with a lack of proof either way, a good starting assumption would be to assume that all are remnants of the church of Ignatius’s era.
Uh, I wouldn’t rush into any assumptions just yet.
Martin Luther was a Catholic Priest, as was John Calvin. These men left the Catholic Church and changed their beliefs. The majority of Protestant churches came after these two and have altered their theology, so logically, we can see they could not be “faithful remnants”. We need to find an unchanging remnant, a church that has Apostolic succession.

That leaves the Orthodox Churches and the Catholic Church. I see them both as members of the “One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church”, so either choice is valid.

I would point out that the Catholic Church recognizes other churches to have a portion of the truth. Some churches have more truth contained in their theology and doctrine than others, but the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth because the Apostles left it to us. No man can change what God has given us.
 
Uh, I wouldn’t rush into any assumptions just yet.
Martin Luther was a Catholic Priest, as was John Calvin. These men left the Catholic Church and changed their beliefs. The majority of Protestant churches came after these two and have altered their theology, so logically, we can see they could not be “faithful remnants”. We need to find an unchanging remnant, a church that has Apostolic succession.

That leaves the Orthodox Churches and the Catholic Church. I see them both as members of the “One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church”, so either choice is valid.

I would point out that the Catholic Church recognizes other churches to have a portion of the truth. Some churches have more truth contained in their theology and doctrine than others, but the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth because the Apostles left it to us. No man can change what God has given us.
The priests were Knox, Zwingli, Luther, Erasmus was a monk and Calvin was a Lawyer.

Knox and Luther later married.
Luther married a nun
Erasmus wrote love letters to another monk
Zwingli was an admitted fornicator as a priest and married
Calvin was a lawyer and a murderer. His father was excommunicated because of embezzelement.
 
The priests were Knox, Zwingli, Luther, Erasmus was a monk and Calvin was a Lawyer.

Knox and Luther later married.
Luther married a nun
Erasmus wrote love letters to another monk
Zwingli was an admitted fornicator as a priest and married
Calvin was a lawyer and a murderer. His father was excommunicated because of embezzelement.
Thanks for the correction!🙂
 
I would not assume such a thing.
The issue of course is what would an unbiased observer assume. You and I have biases.

I suspect someone who is Jewish would observe Christianity divided into 3 major sections with all three sections approximately equal. And someone who is Jewish would care less about the infighting that goes on between the sections.
 
Uh, I wouldn’t rush into any assumptions just yet.
Martin Luther was a Catholic Priest, as was John Calvin. These men left the Catholic Church and changed their beliefs. The majority of Protestant churches came after these two and have altered their theology, so logically, we can see they could not be “faithful remnants”. We need to find an unchanging remnant, a church that has Apostolic succession.
You are assuming that if Ignatius were alive today he would use the metric that you are cherry picking.

What if he used different metrics.

What if Ignatius (if he were transported through time) came to our towns and cities and used the metric of “loving God and loving their neighbor as themselves” to discern the faith community most like the church of his era.
 
You are assuming that if Ignatius were alive today he would use the metric that you are cherry picking.

What if he used different metrics.

What if Ignatius (if he were transported through time) came to our towns and cities and used the metric of “loving God and loving their neighbor as themselves” to discern the faith community most like the church of his era.
What are you talking about?😊
 
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