Radical, the Bible seems pretty clear that Jesus established His Church as a teaching organization,…
I trust that we would agree that the Church is much more than a teaching organization. I trust that we would also agree that the Church is much, much more than its leadership. IMHO the Church (as a whole) is charged with preaching Christ always…using words when necessary. It seems extraordinarily disingenuous to claim that the Church can have the most corrupt leadership imaginable but, if it can still be somehow said that no error was officially taught, then the gates of hell have not prevailed against that Church….as if Christ’s proclamation to the world was, “All that really counts is what my Church (officially) says. That is how I will judge who has prevailed.”
…. to speak to the world in His name and with His authority. Agreed?
all who possess his Spirit are Christ’s messengers….not just the leadership and no one has Christ’s full authority.
Do you also agree with the following:
As per scripture, His Church was to teach men whatsoever He had taught - nothing more and nothing less:
technically this isn’t right…as you are apt to frequently point out, Christ did not teach us the names of the books in the NT Canon. I guess you could say that the HS taught us the Canon and that seems to be a fairly common view. It would be better if Christians left it at that, but they go on to claim that the HS has taught them all manner of other things that are then expected to be binding on others.
“All power is given to Me in heaven and earth. Going therefore, teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.” Matthew 28:18-20
note the use of “observe”…actions and not just words. It strikes me as extremely odd that one would claim that the HS was supplied to a select group so that they would be prevented from (officially) teaching any error, but that the grace that the HS provided would be somehow limited to that purpose and would not also prevent that select group from falling into immorality.
Jesus placed on all men the obligation of hearing His Church as they would hear Himself:
“He that heareth you, heareth Me.” Luke 10:16
this is a specific statement to a specific group….if is to be applied to more than them, I would say that it applies to all those who possess Christ’s Spirit.
He promised to be with the Church and guide His Church until the end of time:
“And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.” Matthew 28:20
again, this is a specific statement to a certain group….if is to be applied to more than them, I would say that it applies to all those who possess Christ’s Spirit….and we can best determine who they are by their fruit
He sent the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of infallible truth, upon the Apostles and their successors, (if in fact infallible truth was not to be limited to just the 1st century) -
The HS was not given exclusively to the Apostles nor to the later hierarchy. The Apostles were most certainly empowered in a particular manner and that is witnessed by the mark of an Apostle that Paul described. That mark was the ability to do signs and wonders with great frequency. This mark is nowhere to be found in the Church today…no one today does miracles of the quality and frequency that was recorded for the Apostles. IMHO if one is going to claim that he is one of THE successors to the apostles, then he should back up that claim with the mark of an Apostle (and nothing less).
……in order that they (as fallible leaders, like the authors of scripture) - might be illumined and assisted in the work of continuing the teaching mission of God’s own Son, until His return.
no one writes scripture any more either…the age of the Apostles has ended. The Church today (as always) is the body of Christ. Upon believing in Christ as Lord, one is given the Holy Spirit. (Eph 1:13-14) In accepting such believers and in giving the gift of the Holy Spirit, God did not distinguish between the Jews and the Gentiles (Acts 15:8-9) and does not distinguish between the Catholics and the Protestants and Orthodox today. As we are all given one and the same Spirit, we constitute the one body of Christ. (1 Cor 12:12-27) God has worked to combine us into that one body so that there should be no division (1 Cor 12:25). Within that body, all should be seen as indispensable (1 Cor 12:21-22) No part of the body should think that it is more important than any other part. (1 Cor 12:21-22 & Romans 12:3). You want to define the CC of today as the body of Christ, but Catholics today constitute about half of Christianity and, in all likelihood include about half of those who have been given the Holy Spirit. As such, if you were to judge things the way God judges things, then, by looking at the heart and at the Spirit you would note that the CC is merely half of the body of Christ.
Therefore, if you use doctrine as your criterion, then the universal/catholic church of Ignatius’s day is not the same church as the CC b/c the doctrine has changed so substantially. Further, if you use the possession of the Holy Spirit/membership in the body of Christ as your criterion, then the universal/catholic church of Ignatius’s day is not the same church as the CC b/c the CC is only a fraction of the one True Church (and a decreasing fraction at that).
