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grampben
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I understand.
Please don’t mock me or my faith though, it’s not nice.
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Please don’t mock me or my faith though, it’s not nice.
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grampben
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Insightful comment. Well I’m as fallible as the next guyHi, grampben,
Nooooooowww… let’s do that again…If you disagree with a topic, merely re-stating your view is no longer sufficient. You really need to come up with a reference or two to support your position. This moves disussions on an intellectual basis rather then an emotional one resting on an “I said” assumption.
Formal excommunication from the Pope via a Papal Bull is certainly not necessary for the person involved to be excommunicated. For example, all those that participate in any aspect of an elective abortion are - by this very act - excommunicated. Here is an item from the Cathecism of the Catholic Church.
“2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,” “by the very commission of the offense,” and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law. The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.”
In the area of grave sin, the CC has determined that certain sins are so bad that by their very nature one is no longer a member of the CC. This is made known up front. People considering or encouraging an abortion need to be advised that there is a very serious penalty as a consequence for this action.
Luther basically abondoned his belief first, articulated his false teaching, was privately and publicly instructed, ingnored the directive from the Pope and then was officially excommunicated. Here is a link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ninety-Five_Theses
Do you really think this guy was still a member of CC prior to the Pope signing off on the letter? Luther posted his 95 thesis on the chruch door on 10/31/1517. The Pope excommunicated Luther on 1/3/1521. What do you think Luther was doing during this approximate 3 year and 4 month interval? He was making political friends and adding to the body of his heresies (e.g., SS & SF, which have nothing to do with indulgences).
In brief - he chose to no longer be a member of CC. He long ago stopped seeking to ‘reform’ and instead chose to break away - and that preceeded the formal excommunication.
God bless
Sorry if I offended anyone here
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Cinette
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:doh2: :doh2: you don’t seem to have read the above posting!!!:crying: :crying:
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elvisman
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I mocked your faith by pointing out that Luther chose to be excommunicated?
I don’t get it. Can you elaborate?
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grampben
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grampben
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And you don’t seem to have read my following post. Settle down dear.
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elvisman
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Maybe you should re-read your post to tqualey, where you used the very same word, “lol”.
This seems to be a clear-cut case of "not worrying about the splinter in sombody else’s eye until you pull out the beam in your own." Matt. 7:5
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grampben
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it wasn’t the lol, it was the sarcastic ‘ohh ummm…’ etc.
I would say that’s exactly what you’re doing.
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Peter_J
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Fair enough.
Actually, if you look at history I think you’ll see that the Church wasn’t so much a “monopoly”, but rather it was one universal communion with “checks and balances” (not to overly Americanize it) inherent in it. It was only after the East-West schism, and the increased centralization of power at the Vatican during the middle ages, that a “monopoly” became a problem – indeed, from a Catholic p.o.v., one could say that the “monopoly” problem of the middle ages became an opportunity for even greater problems, e.g. severe disunity, to make their appearance.
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grampben
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Interesting take on it. I don’t presume to have all the answers lol. I never thought of it that way before
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elvisman
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Grampben - you strike me as somebody who, when he can’t answer a retort simply comes back with a "stop picking on me " reply.
Nobody’s picking on you.
All I wanted you to address was the fact that Luther was self-excommunicated.
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Peter_J
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(Of course, I don’t doubt that Protestants would claim that the current disunity is preferable to the “monopoly” that preceded it.)
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guanophore
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This is not the case. The dissention around the Trinity raged from the day Jesus proclaimed “before Abraham was, I am”.
What became necessary, and still does, is a definition or proclamation of right doctrine in order to respond to rampant heresies.
This affirmation was absolutely necessary. It is only too obvious because we have currently resurgence of heresies that the Church dealt with in the early centuries.
Jesus directed that converts be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Apostles taught this doctrine to their successors. When it was questioned and disputed, it was affirmed formally.
This is like saying “the canon of scripture was not created for several hundred years, so it must not be necessary, though I believe that it is true”.
Clearly there are many sinful men who are attached to the Church who have failed to produce these fruits.
The faith does not become more complicated because things are clarified, such as the hypostatic union, the canon of scripture, the Trinity, and the Marian doctrines. These elements have always been part of the Apostolic faith. The presence of heresies required clarity.
The Church, as the originator of all that is written in the NT, has never been confined to what is written. This phrase you have used is out of context, and does not apply to the Church, who produced the Holy Scriptures for the sake of the faithful.
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ufamtobie
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Hisalone
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Cinette
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grampben
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Well that response really helped the discussion.&%$#@"*
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benedictus2
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Another byproduct of delusion.
Could you perhaps say how? You migh think that was a brilliant one liner but the brilliance is truly only in your mind.
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grampben
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Sigh. On every side this thread is getting really uncharitable.
Can’t we all try to be nice?
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Cinette
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Grampben - we are not being nasty and uncharitable - I can never do that to an Irishman. They are too previous. But when you say something that makes no sense then what else my friend but )((&^%$#@>?
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