The Catholic Church

[nbtb1348]

Thanks Militant, for the great link as well as the encouragement to charity. The article also makes it clear that, just as did all the heretics of the early centuries, the Reformers wished to retain the name of “catholic” while departing from the Catholic Faith.

From the online Etymology Dictionary:
catholic
c.1350, “of the doctrines of the ancient Church,” lit. “universally accepted,” from L.L. catholicus “universal, general,” from Gk. katholikos, from phrase kath’ holou, from kata “about” + gen. of holos “whole” (see safe (adj.)). Applied to the Church in Rome c.1554, after the Reformation.

In the days of the NT, the word simply meant the body of born again people all over the world. How could it meant any more or any less? How could you exclude any saved people from the Universal Church? Well, of course you can’t. This is what they knew of ‘Catholic’ until the 1500’s.

 

[Peter_J]

In the days of the NT, the word simply meant the body of born again people all over the world. How could it meant any more or any less? How could you exclude any saved people from the Universal Church? Well, of course you can’t. This is what they knew of ‘Catholic’ until the 1500’s.

Not so. There were splits in the 1st millennium too. If someone in, say, the 6th century used the term “Catholic”, that would exclude the Arians, the Nestorians, and the Oriental Orthodox. (Well, technically that would depend on who was using the term. An Oriental Orthodox would have used the term “Catholic” to mean only the Oriental Orthodox, excluding everyone else.)

The East-West split that occurred in 1054 (or whenever we want to date it) was, in one sense, just one more in the list of splits (although, in another sense, it was very different from the earlier splits – each side had a comparable number of adherents; also, one side had the Patriarchates of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem, while the other side had the first-ranking Patriarch, i.e. the Pope of Rome).

 

[nbtb1348]

Yes, Catholic means universal, but this was written before the New Testament Existed. Those who are members of the universal Church are those who embrace the Teaching of the Apostles. The Holy Scriptures were never intended to be the foundation of the Church.

We are in agreement that the members of the One, True, Catholic Church are those wo submit to the authorities that Jesus appointed to shepherd that Church. These are the Apostles, and their successors.

You just spoke in circles. There is one Church. It is composed of all born again people. You cannot be born again and not be part of Christ’s Church. Do you get that?

 

[nbtb1348]

Not so. There were splits in the 1st millennium too. If someone in, say, the 6th century used the term “Catholic”, that would exclude the Arians, the Nestorians, and the Oriental Orthodox. (Well, technically that would depend on who was using the term. An Oriental Orthodox would have used the term “Catholic” to mean only the Oriental Orthodox, excluding everyone else.)

The East-West split that occurred in 1054 (or whenever we want to date it) was, in one sense, just one more in the list of splits (although, in another sense, it was very different from the earlier splits – each side had a comparable number of adherents; also, one side had the Patriarchates of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem, while the other side had the first-ranking Patriarch, i.e. the Pope of Rome).

Yes, and if only it was about rank and not about faithfulness to Scripture. There are faithful in every corner of this globe through whom the Holy Spirit works mightily and to whom He illumines Scripture both when the pastors and teachers of their churches teach (and there certainly are some incredible ones, aren’t there?!! Just Google RC Sproul, to name one of millions) …and He illumines when they meditate privately on Scripture.

Don’t you know how fervently everyone believed their way was right as they split? Thank God there is one thing that remains constant: His Word.

 

[Cinette]

You just spoke in circles. There is one Church. It is composed of all born again people. You cannot be born again and not be part of Christ’s Church. Do you get that?

I would be most obliged if you would kindly explain that.

Thank you
Cinette

 

[Peter_J]

Yes, and if only it was about rank and not about faithfulness to Scripture.

Faithfulness to Scripture is important, but that doesn’t mean that rank and ministry are unimportant.

Don’t you know how fervently everyone believed their way was right as they split? Thank God there is one thing that remains constant: His Word.

Amen.

 

[nbtb1348]

I would be most obliged if you would kindly explain that.

Thank you
Cinette

Christ has one Body, one Church. It is what he died for and rose for and prepares a place for, and it is what He inhabits this very moment through His Holy Spirit. I am a member of that body. I became so when I discovered Christ died for all my sins and the God wanted to give me eternal life as a free gift, if I would repent and believe. I did on a certain night. I have never been the same. The Bible is absolutely alive to me. It should have lightning bolts flying out of it and lasers streaking away from it. I have memorized great portions of it. I have gotten to know God a lot through His Word and through obeying His Word. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that if I die while typing this sentence or I die fifty years from now, I will immediately be with Jesus. I know many many people who are just the same. We are all part of The Church. Not the Roman Church, but the Holy Catholic Church. I have 30 million Chinese brothers. Tony Dungy is my brother. Billy Graham is as well. The guy that will be quarterbacking the Cardinals in the Super Bowl next week is my brother–Kurt Warner. I don’t mean we are members of the same denomination, I mean we both have Jesus’ life flowing through our veins, so to speak.

We do this without stepping foot in an RCC building or consuming your Mass. We observe the Lord’s Supper “In remembrance” of Him. And it is powerful.

Does that help you?

 

[Cinette]

Christ has one Body, one Church. It is what he died for and rose for and prepares a place for, and it is what He inhabits this very moment through His Holy Spirit. I am a member of that body. I became so when I discovered Christ died for all my sins and the God wanted to give me eternal life as a free gift, if I would repent and believe. I did on a certain night. I have never been the same.
…

We do this without stepping foot in an RCC building or consuming your Mass. We observe the Lord’s Supper “In remembrance” of Him. And it is powerful.

Does that help you?

*Thank you for your response. I appreciate it. We Catholics receive the Holy Spirit at our Baptism when we are Baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit (as so many other Christians). Again when we are Confirmed we evoke the Holy Spirit into our lives. I have done Life in the Spirit Seminars and have led and co-led. The infilling of the Spirit is indeed transforming and so I understand you saying that you were never the same again. In common language one could say that “it sticks”. I was never the same again and experienced many special graces and the transformation was permanent. You are right here. I know exactly what you are talking about. However, in the Catholic Church we have an added dimension.

For 1500 years Christians believed in the Real Presence. The Apostles did, those who were close to him, those who stepped into their shoes did. Despite Luther’s heresy he believed in the Real Presence. From Luther, Calvin, Zwingli’s break emanated the denominations, split after split after split. The Protestant churches are numerous – there is no unity. If they don’t agree on something they split and it goes on and on. Down the road from us is the “Family Church” and you have the Saddleback Church (I wondered about that name and then reached the conclusion that it could only be the name of a district or a town… These Churches are believers in the “symbolic” presence.
*
When you enter a Catholic Mass you bless yourself with Holy Water to remember your Baptism. You enter the Church and genuflect - that little red light near the tabernacle signifies that the Blessed Sacrament (Jesus) is there. You proceed to make the sign of the cross and greet Jesus. There is silence out of reverence as the people file into the Church for Mass. Then the Mass begins. After the Entrance Antifon the Priest opens his arms and greets the congregation “The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.” We respond “And also with you” and there are prayers followed by the Penitential Rite when we examine our consciences after the Priest says “My brothers and sisters to prepare ourselves to celebrate the sacred mysteries let us call to mind our sins”. After a pause and silence we say the “I confess…” the Kyrie follows - Lord have Mercy, Christ have Mercy… “May Almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins and bring us to everlasting life”. Amen

Then we have the Gloria - often in song “Glory to God in the highest and peace to his people on earth” and I am sure the Angels and Saints in Heaven join us as we sing this beautiful prayer…

The Liturgy of the Word follows…On Sundays we have Two readings (OT and Epistle) with the chanting of the Psalm in between - the singing of the Psalm is to beautiful and moving also… After the 2nd reading we have the Alleluia which is also sung. The Gospel follows and then the Homily. The Homily is a commentary/teaching on the passages read and their connectedness (the Priest never chooses the theme - it is in the Lectionary and our Missals and the same the world over). After the Homily there is the Creed “I believe in One God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen…”

The Prayer of the Faithful follows and the Reader will call out all the intentions and we respond “Receive our prayer”…

Now follows the Liturgy of the Eucharist.“Pray brethen, that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God, the Almighty Father” says the priest and we respond Amen. We offer ourselves to God in the Offertary. There is the Preface and we all stand up and we pray “Holy, Holy, Holy God of Power and Might…”

Then there is the Eucharistic Prayer and the Consecration and then the Priest says: Let us proclaim the Mystery of Faith and we have several responses, one being:

“Lord, by your cross and resurrection you have set us free. You are the Saviour of the world”

We say the Our Father and then the Priest says the prayer of Peace and opening is arms he says “Peace be with you” We respond and then we offer peace to each other. Then comes “Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, have mercy on us………”

The Rite of Communion follows and we receive the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ who died for our sins on the Cross (once and for all).

We return to our bench, kneel and offer thanks.

The Priest says the final prayer and gives us a Blessing and says “Go in Peace to Love and Serve the Lord!”.

Amen.
*This is our beautiful Mass which gives us light, love and grace.

I have great respect for Billy Graham as do many Catholics. In fact, we have respect and affection for many other Protestant leaders also. After all, are we not all Christians.

God bless you *

 

[benedictus2]

In the days of the NT, the word simply meant the body of born again people all over the world. How could it meant any more or any less? How could you exclude any saved people from the Universal Church? Well, of course you can’t. This is what they knew of ‘Catholic’ until the 1500’s.

In the days of the NT the word “born again” was not even applied to the Christians. That term sprouted way after the 1500s.

We are not excluding people from the Universal Church., They are excluding themselves. They are always welcome and will be embraced with great warmth should they come home. As a matter of fact, we want nothing more than for you to come home.

 

[benedictus2]

I have gotten to know God a lot through His Word and through obeying His Word.

That is wonderful. I wonder, do you obey His Word, when he said eat my body, drink my blood.

I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that if I die while typing this sentence or I die fifty years from now, I will immediately be with Jesus. I know many many people who are just the same. We are all part of The Church. Not the Roman Church, but the Holy Catholic Church.

Sorry, to disabuse you of that illusion. The Roman Catholic Church IS the Catholic Church.

The church you belong to sprouted up 1500 years later (probably even later than that).

There is only One True Catholic and Apostolic Church. And no protestant Church is IT.

I have 30 million Chinese brothers. Tony Dungy is my brother. Billy Graham is as well. The guy that will be quarterbacking the Cardinals in the Super Bowl next week is my brother–Kurt Warner. I don’t mean we are members of the same denomination, I mean we both have Jesus’ life flowing through our veins, so to speak.

No matter how many members your church have, it will still not be Christ’s Church. It will still be a church separated from the Church He founded on Peter.

I put this challenge to you as I have to many other protestants.

Since you do no think that the Catholic Church is the Church of Christ, of the 30,000 or so protestant denominations. which one is the Church of Christ?

Christ established only ONE (1) Church upon Peter. So which one it is. You have to be able to trace that Church back to Peter. Please show a timeline.

We do this without stepping foot in an RCC building or consuming your Mass. We observe the Lord’s Supper “In remembrance” of Him. And it is powerful.

Obviously, inspite of your professed belief in Christ you are one of those who walked away from Him because they could not accept the hard teaching.

 

[Cinette]

In the days of the NT the word “born again” was not even applied to the Christians. That term sprouted way after the 1500s.

We are not excluding people from the Universal Church., They are excluding themselves. They are always welcome and will be embraced with great warmth should they come home. As a matter of fact, we want nothing more than for you to come home.

Are we not born again by water and the Holy Spirit through Baptism?

 

[swariffin]

The catholic Church is the one true Church founded by Christ. The Roman Catholic church was NOT founded by Christ. One is an institution created by man and the other is not an institution and was founded by Christ.

Who founded your church? When, Where, and by Whom?

 

[benedictus2]

Don’t you know how fervently everyone believed their way was right as they split?

They may have fervently believed they were right when they split, but it does not mean that they were indeed right.

As a matter of fact, a lot of them were downright wrong. Fervour of belief is not the same as actually possesing Truth.

A demented man can fervently believe he is King David. Haven’t you noticed how many “fervently believing” people are out there proclaiming they are Christ?

Thank God there is one thing that remains constant: His Word.

Thank God for the guidance of the Holy Spirit that we now have His Word through the Catholic Church.

 

[benedictus2]

Are we not born again by water and the Holy Spirit through Baptism?

Yes! Unfortunately their formula is “acknowledge Jesus as your personal Lord and Saviour”. Totally unbiblical.

 

[guanophore]

From the online Etymology Dictionary:
catholic
c.1350, “of the doctrines of the ancient Church,” lit. “universally accepted,” from L.L. catholicus “universal, general,” from Gk. katholikos, from phrase kath’ holou, from kata “about” + gen. of holos “whole” (see safe (adj.)). Applied to the Church in Rome c.1554, after the Reformation.

In the days of the NT, the word simply meant the body of born again people all over the world. How could it meant any more or any less? How could you exclude any saved people from the Universal Church? Well, of course you can’t. This is what they knew of ‘Catholic’ until the 1500’s.

It means more because the Church is more than just the collection of believers all over the world. The Church contains the glorified saints, who are in heaven, and the Church suffereing, who have passed from this life and are preparing for heaven. In addition, the Church has as her Head Christ, and she is ensouled by the HS. It is these divine elements that make the Church Holy and infallible.

I agree, no saved people are excluded from the Church. However, the Church, which is Catholic, contains the structure that Jesus created for it. It is not invisible, or amorphous.

You just spoke in circles. There is one Church. It is composed of all born again people. You cannot be born again and not be part of Christ’s Church. Do you get that?

I “get” that you have a deficient understanding of the nature of the Church.

 

[guanophore]

Yes, and if only it was about rank and not about faithfulness to Scripture. There are faithful in every corner of this globe through whom the Holy Spirit works mightily and to whom He illumines Scripture both when the pastors and teachers of their churches teach (and there certainly are some incredible ones, aren’t there?!! Just Google RC Sproul, to name one of millions) …and He illumines when they meditate privately on Scripture.

Don’t you know how fervently everyone believed their way was right as they split? Thank God there is one thing that remains constant: His Word.

Yes, I believe that people who become heretics do so with good motives. I think all that did so during the Reformation wanted sincerely to jettison the corruption in the leadership, so they tried to replace the authority appointed by Christ with Scripture.

I also agree that there is one constant, the Word of God, who is Jesus. He manifests Himself through His church, His Body, as well as the Holy Writings.

I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that if I die while typing this sentence or I die fifty years from now, I will immediately be with Jesus. I know many many people who are just the same.

Perhaps you don’t realize that this concept is not part of the Apostolic Teaching?

 We are all part of The Church.  Not the Roman Church, but the Holy Catholic Church.  I have 30 million Chinese brothers.  Tony Dungy is my brother.  Billy Graham is as well.  The guy that will be quarterbacking the Cardinals in the Super Bowl next week is my brother--Kurt Warner.  I don't mean we are members of the same denomination, I mean we both have Jesus' life flowing through our veins, so to speak.

Now who is talking in circles? If there is only one church, and all believers are members of it,then how come you are not part of the same Church the “Romans” are? How come the Romans are not your brethren.

Did you know that Jesus did not intend there to be “denominations”?

We do this without stepping foot in an RCC building or consuming your Mass.  We observe the Lord's Supper "In remembrance" of Him.  And it is powerful.

One has to wonder, nbtb. If you have everything you want, why are you here on CAF? If you are so proud to be separated from the Roman Catholic Church, what is your goal here?

Does that help you?

No, actually, it is quite saddening to read how puffed up you seem to be over the separation that exists in the Body.

 

[Peter_J]

Christ has one Body, one Church. It is what he died for and rose for and prepares a place for, and it is what He inhabits this very moment through His Holy Spirit. I am a member of that body. I became so when I discovered Christ died for all my sins and the God wanted to give me eternal life as a free gift, if I would repent and believe. I did on a certain night. I have never been the same. The Bible is absolutely alive to me. It should have lightning bolts flying out of it and lasers streaking away from it. I have memorized great portions of it. I have gotten to know God a lot through His Word and through obeying His Word. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that if I die while typing this sentence or I die fifty years from now, I will immediately be with Jesus. I know many many people who are just the same. We are all part of The Church. Not the Roman Church, but the Holy Catholic Church. I have 30 million Chinese brothers. Tony Dungy is my brother. Billy Graham is as well. The guy that will be quarterbacking the Cardinals in the Super Bowl next week is my brother–Kurt Warner. I don’t mean we are members of the same denomination, I mean we both have Jesus’ life flowing through our veins, so to speak.

We do this without stepping foot in an RCC building or consuming your Mass. We observe the Lord’s Supper “In remembrance” of Him. And it is powerful.

Does that help you?

nbtb1348,

Thanks for that post. I respect your opinion that “the Catholic Church” is … well, what you just said (okay, I admit I’m being a little lazy ) even though I disagree with you. I just hope that you can be equally respectful of my opinion that “the Catholic Church” is everyone who’s in full communion with Pope Benedict XVI, a.k.a. “the Roman Catholic Church”.

 

[guanophore]

nbtb1348,

Thanks for that post. I respect your opinion that “the Catholic Church” is … well, what you just said (okay, I admit I’m being a little lazy ) even though I disagree with you. I just hope that you can be equally respectful of my opinion that “the Catholic Church” is everyone who’s in full communion with Pope Benedict XVI, a.k.a. “the Roman Catholic Church”.

While I agree that the Catholic Church is defined by unity with the bishop of Rome, the Church is not “Roman” and the unity is not “Roman”.

 

[Matariel]

Christ has one Body, one Church.

Yeah, the Holy and Undivided Catholic Church (Y’know, the Church that you guys started adding the word “Roman” too shortly after the Protestant division in the 1500’s). One of the four marks of the Church is Unity. And the Catholic Church has that, not the Protestant splintering sects. There is no real unity in the Protestant sects. They cannot even agree on important doctrines.

We do this without stepping foot in an RCC building or consuming your Mass. We observe the Lord’s Supper “In remembrance” of Him. And it is powerful.

Not nearly as powerful as the real Sacrament. It’s just mere bread and wine. But the Sacraments of the Holy Church have the power and life of Christ imparted to them. Why* wouldn’t *you want to be a part of that?

 

[guanophore]

Not nearly as powerful as the real Sacrament. It’s just mere bread and wine. But the Sacraments of the Holy Church have the power and life of Christ imparted to them. Why* wouldn’t *you want to be a part of that?

I gather he has an unresolved resentment against the Catholic Church because he did not grasp the truth of the gospel until he “left” the faith.