The Catholic Circle: orthodox vs. heterodox

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Daprato

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While the labels are certainly not universally approved (and often do not make a lot of sense) I sometimes wonder if those who consider themselves to be “ultra-orthodox” have any idea just how heterodox they are? I wonder if they are aware of how their extreme beliefs and acts are no less dissenting than those who they most love to judge?

It’s a gradual process. As a Catholic increasingly follows what the Church actually teaches, they move more and more towards orthodox Catholicism. As they ignore the Church (whether it’s about adding liturgical dancing, insinuating one type of Mass is more holy than another or something in between) and do what suits them (or what they feel is “best”) they move towards heterodoxy.

Although the graphic is quite crude I thought it might help…
 
Daprato said:
http://scripturechannel.tripod.com/misc//CatholicCircle.jpg
While the labels are certainly not universally approved (and often do not make a lot of sense) I sometimes wonder if those who consider themselves to be “ultra-orthodox” have any idea just how heterodox they are? I wonder if they are aware of how their extreme beliefs and acts are no less dissenting than those who they most love to judge?

It’s a gradual process. As a Catholic increasingly follows what the Church actually teaches, they move more and more towards orthodox Catholicism. As they ignore the Church (whether it’s about adding liturgical dancing, insinuating one type of Mass is more holy than another or something in between) and do what suits them (or what they feel is “best”) they move towards heterodoxy.

Although the graphic is quite crude I thought it might help…
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Bah!
 
Are you saying that the Catholics who cling to the Tradition of the faith are heterodox? BAH!
 
orthodox - inline with the pope
heterodox - deviating from the pope

ortho - right
dox - thought/teaching

yeah, I can see that.
 
Pope_Noah_I said:
Are you saying that the Catholics who cling to the Tradition of the faith are heterodox? BAH!
Click to expand...
While I did have trouble figuring out the diagram in any sense at all, I think by definition those who cling to the authentic Tradition of the Church are orthodox (right believing) Catholic Christians .
 
Daprato said:
Originally Posted by Pope Noah I
Are you saying that the Catholics who cling to the Tradition of the faith are heterodox? BAH!

I say that not only are both extremely heterodox, they are also rather similar.
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BAH !
 
I should probably give an example of two extremes that are more alike that unalike. I will apologize in advance for the labels.

A “Spirit of Vatican II Catholic” might applaud and support the use of “liturgical dance.” It’s been demonstrated on these forums (with some exceptions) that this is wrong.

A TLM-only Catholic might persuade other people to attend SSPX Masses, calling them “better” than the Masses (both Pauline and Tridentine) that are celebrated within the Church. That too is wrong. Terribly wrong.

I have been witness to both – within the past 2 weeks.
 
HenryV said:
Good luck, but that’s just an image it has nothingth to do with truths of the Catholic faith they are defined and cannot change no matter how you write your chart.
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The chart is accurate…
 
It’s because you don’t understand the chart. I do wish I could have drawn it more clearly.

The gist of the matter is that the great gamut of Catholics is not a straight line when it comes to orthodoxy or lack thereof – it’s a ring. The uber-progressives are right next to the uber-traditionalists. They are not furthest apart as they would like to think

Much like fascists and anarchists on the political spectrum…
 
That’s an interesting chart. I think I might specify that the “TLM-only” meaning the sedevacatists as the heterodox ones, since they don’t recognize the Pope or VII (along with the "Spirit of VII"ers) either. If a Catholic obeys the Pope (who recognizes VII) then I would put them as very traditionalist, but not heterodox.

Maybe, I say that to assuage my self concept since I’m liturgically conservative and feel positively about the TLM also. I must say, it doesn’t seem to square with the chart that so many Saints have been canonized who attended (assisted at) the TLM.:confused:
 
I understand the chart completely and it is completely and utterly false. Would you call the FSSP, ICRSS, Clear Creek Benedictines, CRNJ, Institute of the Good Shepherd, etc., etc. as heterodox? They are “TLM-onlyists,” and they are faithful to the Church and its Magisterium. Also I wouldn’t be so quick to call the SSPX heterodox. They MIGHT (and that is a big if) be schismatic, but they most certaintly are not heterodox. If they are heterodox, show me some Church Dogma that they reject, or some heretical theology that they hold. I’ll give this thread a plethora of BAH’s! BAH, BAH, BAH, and BAH!
 
Also, to imply that Traditional Catholics are just as heterodox as “progressive Catholics” (an oxymoron if ever there was one) is total absurdity. Traditional Catholics are faithful to Tradition, so called “progressive Catholics” want to change Tradition, a Tradition that is unchanging. “Progressive Catholics” are heterodox, Traditional Catholics are not. You’d probably be amazed where most of the Saints would fall in this little chart of yours. I’m willing to bet you wouldn’t call them heterodox.
 
brigid12 said:
That’s an interesting chart. I think I might specify that the “TLM-only” meaning the sedevacatists as the heterodox ones, since they don’t recognize the Pope or VII (along with the "Spirit of VII"ers) either. If a Catholic obeys the Pope (who recognizes VII) then I would put them as very traditionalist, but not heterodox.

Maybe, I say that to assuage my self concept since I’m liturgically conservative and feel positively about the TLM also. I must say, it doesn’t seem to square with the chart that so many Saints have been canonized who attended (assisted at) the TLM.:confused:
Click to expand...
Maybe “sedevacantist” is a more accurate label. The “TLM-only” people I am referring to are those that claim the Tridentine Mass is somehow “better” or more efficacious than the Pauline Mass.

I ran into some “TLM-only” folks last Sunday at a Tridentine Mass. After Mass they were discussing if ‘the Blessed Sacrament was truly present in the tabernacle as it had earlier been consecrated at a “NO” Mass.’ They were concerned because a few people received hosts that had been reposed in the tabernacle (they ran a bit short) and were unsure if those people had actually received the Eucharist!

No matter what though, it’s a ring and not a line…
 
SemperFidelis said:
Also, to imply that Traditional Catholics are just as heterodox as “progressive Catholics” (an oxymoron if ever there was one) is total absurdity. Traditional Catholics are faithful to Tradition, so called “progressive Catholics” want to change Tradition, a Tradition that is unchanging. “Progressive Catholics” are heterodox, Traditional Catholics are not. You’d probably be amazed where most of the Saints would fall in this little chart of yours. I’m willing to bet you wouldn’t call them heterodox.
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You really don’t seem to grasp the truth –

That a VERY progressive Catholic could be VERY orthodox, and a VERY traditional Catholic could be extremely heterodox – and the reverse in both cases too of course.

What’s “totally absurd” is to suggest that self-labeled “Traditional Catholics” (sic) are somehow automatically orthodox.

BTW, what do you mean by “Tradition?” Are you speaking of Sacred Tradition – the Church’s Deposit of faith or some other type of “Tradition” that you feel a need to capitalize?
 
Daprato said:
Maybe “sedevacantist” is a more accurate label. The “TLM-only” people I am referring to are those that claim the Tridentine Mass is somehow “better” or more efficacious than the Pauline Mass.
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You can be Faithful to the Magisterium and think the TLM is better than the NO. In fact I’m willing to bet that’s why most people go to the TLM in the first place. However you must accept the NO as at least valid. There’s a big difference.
 
SemperFidelis said:
I understand the chart completely and it is completely and utterly false. Would you call the FSSP, ICRSS, Clear Creek Benedictines, CRNJ, Institute of the Good Shepherd, etc., etc. as heterodox? They are “TLM-onlyists,” and they are faithful to the Church and its Magisterium. Also I wouldn’t be so quick to call the SSPX heterodox. They MIGHT (and that is a big if) be schismatic, but they most certaintly are not heterodox. If they are heterodox, show me some Church Dogma that they reject, or some heretical theology that they hold. I’ll give this thread a plethora of BAH’s! BAH, BAH, BAH, and BAH!
Click to expand...
One cannot be in schism and not heterodox.
 
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