The Catholic Circle: orthodox vs. heterodox

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Isidore,

This argument has been refuted many times. Vatican II documents say nothing of the sort. Nothing contradicts the teaching of outside the Church there is no salvation. The passage that the fringe traditionalist sites use to make their argument is grossly misinterpreted. The Church has long taught that sacramental grace can be obtained by non-catholic churches but the grace itself is accessed through the Church. Think of baptism. The Church has long held that baptism by, say an anglican minister is valid so long as proper form and matter is used. In this case, the non-catholic church is accessing the grace of the Catholic Church in the administration of this Sacrament. This is nothing new. And just like before, schismatics and heretics who are culpable cannot obtain salvation.
This is the **same PASTORAL COUNCIL **that issued:

Dignitatis Humanae

*2. This Vatican Council declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom. This freedom means that all men are to be immune from coercion on the part of individuals or of social groups and of any human power, in such wise that no one is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his own beliefs,
*
(Then this is casually added):

*Nor, on the other hand, is he to be restrained from acting in accordance with his conscience, especially in matters religious.
*
So Religious Freedom is a God given Natural right,:
1) “The right to religious freedom has its foundation, not in the subjective disposition of the person, but in his very nature.”

Then Consequently, Dignitatis Humanae teaches that those in error still have the right to promote their error publicly:
2) “In consequence, the right to their immunity continues to exist even in those who do not live up to their obligations of seeking the truth and adhering to it.”

Furthermore, Dignitatis Humanae teaches that this right to promote their false beliefs is to be recognized by governments in their civil law.

*3) “Religious communities also have the right not to be hindered in their public teaching and witness to their faith, whether by the spoken or written word… is to be recognized in the constitutional law whereby society is governed; thus it is to become a civil act.”
*

More Imporatnatly though:

Vatican II decree Dignitatis Humanae promulgated teachings which were explicitly condemned by Pope Pius IX in his Syllabus of Errors:
Code:
**CONDEMNED PROPOSITIONS:
**
78. Hence it has been wisely decided by law, in some Catholic countries, that persons coming to reside therein shall enjoy the public exercise of their own peculiar worship.
Code:
**“79**. Moreover, it is false that the civil liberty of every form of worship, and the full power, given to all, of openly and publicly manifesting any opinions whatsoever and thoughts, conduce more easily to corrupt the morals and minds of the people, and to propagate the pest of indifferentism.”
Nostra Aetate

*2. …Thus in Hinduism, men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible abundance of myths and through searching philosophical inquiry. They seek freedom from the anguish of our human condition either through ascetical practices or profound meditation or a flight to God *

**This is a Definite Untruth **since In Hinduism there is no recognition of a single unique GOD, but idols. There is animal, creature, and other worships. The Epitome of Idolatry. Great worship of the Cow and Rats, and also the belief of Reincarnation. This was left out of Nostra Aetate.

3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting

The **V2 PASTORAL COUNCIL forgot to mention that ISLAM completely rejects the Holy Trinity **and that the more wives a Muslim has, the happier they shall be in Heaven.

Lest us not forget our ancestors at The Battle of Lepanto in 1571 nor in 1683 at the Gates of Vienna. Those who fought against those who did not recognize the Holy Trinity, Jesus who is God, nor the Catholic Church.

(continued…)
 
(continued from post # 139)

Unitatis Redintegratio

3. It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.

This ‘pluristic use of Churches’ was never utilized before the Vatican II PASTORAL COUNCIL to denote Protestant denominations or other Schismatic Churches.
God via the Incarnation, have founded the One Church, i.e. His Church and so it is not possible for Salvation by False religions.

St John 14:6 I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

This also applies to His Church. The statement that The Most Holy Ghost has used denominations as a ‘means of Salvation’ borders on heresy. An **Absolute contradiction to Church Teaching, Holy Scripture, Doctors of the Church, Councils and what the Popes have always spoke. **

Since these false religions were founded by men and frequently inspired by Legion.​

Sure,

Is this the same **PASTORAL COUNCIL **you speak of?
 
(continued from post # 139)

Unitatis Redintegratio

3. It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.

This ‘pluristic use of Churches’ was never utilized before the Vatican II PASTORAL COUNCIL to denote Protestant denominations or other Schismatic Churches.
God via the Incarnation, have founded the One Church, i.e. His Church and so it is not possible for Salvation by False religions.

St John 14:6 I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

This also applies to His Church. The statement that The Most Holy Ghost has used denominations as a ‘means of Salvation’ borders on heresy. An **Absolute contradiction to Church Teaching, Holy Scripture, Doctors of the Church, Councils and what the Popes have always spoke. **

Since these false religions were founded by men and frequently inspired by Legion.​

Sure,

Is this the same **PASTORAL COUNCIL **you speak of?
The Church has taught that Baptism and Marriage are SACRAMENTS that confer grace even when administered “outside” the Church (the grace still comes through the Church). This is EXACTLY what Vatican II refers to here. It tells us that separated churches still play a role in extending God’s grace, particularly through these Sacraments. This is not even in the same ballpark as heresy and is merely affirming what has been taught for a long long time.

Take the example of an young African man who encounters an Anglican missionary and receives Baptism. Is his baptism valid (presuming in this example proper form and matter)? Yes, of course. Now, where does that grace come from? From the Anglican church? NO, it comes from the Catholic Church. In this way, the Anglican church acts as a “means of salvation.”

Are you proposing some new modernist theory whereby all baptisms and marriages contracted by separated churches are invalid?
 
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