The Catholic "gospel?"

[moondweller]

Based on my own studies and what I’ve read on this forum here’s what I perceive to be the “gospel” according to Rome1) Man was originally created in a “state of grace.”

(2) By transgressing the commandment he “fell” from his original “state of grace.”

(3) Since the fall man’s basic need is to be “restored” to his original “state of grace.”

(4) The sacrifice of Christ became the grounds for God to “restore” man to his original "state of grace.’

(5) The sacrament of water baptism then became the means by which man is “restored” to his original “state of grace.”

(6) Only through the sacraments of the one true Holy Catholic Church can man ever retain his restored “state of grace.”

(7) The goal now for the baptized is to die in this restored “state of grace” made possible only through the sacraments of the one true Holy Catholic Church.Do all Catholics on this forum agree with this assessment of your “gospel?” If not, feel free to correct where needed.

 

[LilyM]

I would disagree with #5 for starters - people also can lose their state of grace AFTER baptism, through mortal sin, and then need perfect contrition for their sin (motivated by love of God rather than fear of hell and followed if possible, for Catholics, by the sacrament of confession) to be restored again.

As for #6 - it is POSSIBLE for people to be restored to a state of grace and saved without the sacraments, which God is of course not limited by, but we would say the Catholic sacraments are by far the most certain and effective method of both being restored to the state of grace and retaining it until death

 

[moondweller]

I would disagree with #5 for starters - people also can lose their state of grace AFTER baptism, through mortal sin, and then need perfect contrition for their sin (motivated by love of God rather than fear of hell and followed if possible, for Catholics, by the sacrament of confession) to be restored again.

I think that’s covered in #6.

As for #6 - it is POSSIBLE for people to be restored to a state of grace and saved without the sacraments, which God is of course not limited by, but we would say the Catholic sacraments are by far the most certain and effective method of both being restored to the state of grace and retaining it until death

And how does one “retain” this “restoration” apart from the sacraments of the CC.

 

[davidv]

1. I find it extemely insulting when you equate the Catholic Church to a secular city in Italy. The Catholic Church is not, and has never been Roman.
2. Regarding your point 1. I believe that the “gospel” says that a more important “need” of man is to be to loved and to love.
3. On your point 5. Baptism is the “normative” means.
4. On your point 7. This is only one of the goals. The primary goal is to grow in holiness and some day experience God face-to-face.

 

[moondweller]

1)2) Regarding your point 1. I believe that the “gospel” says that a more important “need” of man is to be to loved and to love.

Is that your definition of “state of grace?”

1. On your point 5. Baptism is the “normative” means.

So then baptism is only suggested?

1. On your point 7. This is only one of the goals. The primary goal is to grow in holiness and some day experience God face-to-face.

Does not the goal to die in a “state of grace” cover this? One’s attempt to grow in “holiness” would be rendered futile if he didn’t die in a restored “state of grace.” Right?

 

[Thing]

So then baptism is only suggested?

Think of baptism as the Tree of Life in the Garden of the world, as an analogy. God put it there for us to use. That is how He chose to dispense this gift to his creatures. It is the ‘normal’ way He chose to do this thing. But He can do what He wants also and is not constrained by either His creation or His methods, whilst we may be.

One’s attempt to grow in “holiness” would be rendered futile if he didn’t die in a restored “state of grace.” Right?

The ultimate goal is to see God face to face as He really is, the goal is not simply to die well.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Based on my own studies and what I’ve read on this forum here’s what I perceive to be the “gospel” according to Rome1) Man was originally created in a “state of grace.”

(2) By transgressing the commandment he “fell” from his original “state of grace.”

(3) Since the fall man’s basic need is to be “restored” to his original “state of grace.”

(4) The sacrifice of Christ became the grounds for God to “restore” man to his original "state of grace.’

(5) The sacrament of water baptism then became the means by which man is “restored” to his original “state of grace.”

(6) Only through the sacraments of the one true Holy Catholic Church can man ever retain his restored “state of grace.”

(7) The goal now for the baptized is to die in this restored “state of grace” made possible only through the sacraments of the one true Holy Catholic Church.Do all Catholics on this forum agree with this assessment of your “gospel?” If not, feel free to correct where needed.

The problem I have with this is that it makes salvation look more like a process or method. Catholics are not Methodists rather we are looking for a real loving relationship with God through the avenues opened to us through Christ.

Our time here on earth is metaphorically equivalent to the OT Jews (God’s first born of many) held as slave bondage to Pharaoh (sin) and God rescuing them and transforming them through trials as they journey first through the parting seas (baptism) [which destroys their pursuing enemies] then onward as journeying pilgrims (or sheep following the shepherd) to the promised land (heaven); all while being nurtured by God with manna from heaven (Eucharist) and His Word (the water that flows from the rock in the dessert).

I think others have hit most of the weaker areas of your outline. I will add that #6 is overly narrow in focus. Jesus’ obedience, death and resurrection creates a new human prototype and reconfigures all of creation with a natural gravity towards Him (note: the lance in Jesus’ side where water and blood flow out is reminiscent of Adam’s rib being used to form Eve at his side and also the breaking of water in new birth - His Church & His Bride).

So it is not merely a matter of restoring original grace. Rather, we are here to actually exceed our Adam-Eve limitations to be reborn into the divine-human nature of Christ Himself to be “Christlike”. This is ENORMOUSLY superior to restorative grace - this is transformational grace that makes us literally into Children of God with a Divine-Human nature that completely eclipses Adam’s original nature.

So the Catholic sacraments are here for us to not only restore and heal us but also to GROW us spiritually (increase the grace or spiritual capacity of our souls). While alive we are all literally in a gestation process where we can attain to spiritual maturity and gain a nature that can in theory exceed even the higher nature of the angels.

Pretty exciting stuff. The grace we collect here on earth stays with us for eternity - but those that rupture their souls (grave sin) and do not repent and confess lose that grace - just as a cracked clay pot can not contain water. The only thing we leave this world with is all the grace we receive and all our good relationships joined to Christ through His Church. Those souls that can not stand on their own merit through collected grace simply perish (due to having mortal wounds at the time of death [grave sin] that causes all grace to leak out like blood flows from a wound). These are “still-born” so to speak. Here I like to think of types of caterpillars where through transformational grace we can be transformed into new creatures. Those lacking the transformational grace lack a higher order nature and become ugly moths or they simply die during gestation. Whereas the others through the miracle of God’s grace emerge as pretty butterflies to take delight in God’s Garden.

Further, The Church itself is a sacrament. A Catholic Mass is the highest honor and worship one can give to God since we give up Christ Himself to God as the only pleasing sacrifice.

James

 

[JMMK]

Based on my own studies and what I’ve read on this forum here’s what I perceive to be the “gospel” according to Rome:

(4) The sacrifice of Christ became the grounds for God to “restore” man to his original "state of grace.’

(5) The sacrament of water baptism then became the means by which man is “restored” to his original “state of grace.”

(6) Only through the sacraments of the one true Holy Catholic Church can man ever retain his restored “state of grace.”

(7) The goal now for the baptized is to die in this restored “state of grace” made possible only through the sacraments of the one true Holy Catholic Church.

There are a few misleading words.

4&5 are a little confused. Christ’s sacrifice is not the grounds for our salvation, it is our salvation. Baptism is the means by which we are connected to Christ and there-by his sacrifice. This would be the imagery of the branches being grafted onto the vine.

Sacraments are best described as a corollary to a human. Humans are both matter and spirit, sacraments are the same. The action of Baptism is merely the washing of a person accompanied by a prayer; it is only by Divine Cooperation (i.e. the Holy Spirit) that it is a sacrament. As such the sacraments are the normative conduits of grace to Christ’s Church.

State of Grace is another way of saying Filled with God’s Sanctifying Grace. Grace is best defined as God’s life-giving power/love. There are two kinds of Grace: Sanctifying and Particular. Sanctifying Grace is the kind that saves you, binds your to Christ, etc. Particular Grace is a fortification by the Holy Spirit to do some good (e.g. An alcoholic staying sober in the face of temptation).

6 is a little convoluted. It’s the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, for one. The sacraments are like wedding gifts to the Bride of Christ, the Church. Technically you can retain the State of Grace without any of the sacraments after Baptism, but that would require the person to never willfully, and with full knowledge, commit a serious sin and that is a massive challenge to anyone. To that end Christ gave his apostles the authority to forgive sins, and they then passed that down to the modern bishops who intern authorize the priests to do the same. That is the sacrament of Penance. I’m not going to go into all of the sacraments, but that is the general idea. They are there to help us live the Holy lives God has planned for us with His active participation.

7 builds on the rest, but yes, dying in the state of grace is dying filled with the Life-giving love of the most blessed Trinity and as such is the only way to heaven. What the Church teaches and ministers to is the normative means of salvation; the means that are spelled out and available to every one. Now there is the possibility of others being granted heaven as well, however the requirements for that are known to God alone.

This is the Gospel of the Apostles handed down over the centuries, built by Christ upon the Rock of Peter, shepherded over by his 264 successors, guarded and led to all truth by the Holy Spirit.

 

[BRB]

(7) The goal now for the baptized is to die in this restored “state of grace” made possible only through the sacraments of the one true Holy Catholic Church.[/indent].

The ultimate goal is Theosis, by avoiding Apostasy thru steadfast discipleship.
Keeping the sacraments [covenants] is God’s means of enabling us to grow up to spiritual maturity.
Yes, the Catholic Church was the first & invincible body of ‘true’ believers sealed in Christ.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Based on my own studies and what I’ve read on this forum here’s what I perceive to be the “gospel” according to Rome:quote]

Catholic gospel???.. according to Rome???..

Now that is funny…

The thread title should be, “Understanding the Gospel, from a protestant gospel point of view”

According to Rome, as opposed to according to your (alone) personal understanding right now.

There is no such thing as a “Catholic Gospel” it is the Gospel. Non-Catholic christian gospels should be understood in context.

They are protestant because they protest the true teaching of Christ and his Church. There are many protestant gospels.

 

[moondweller]

The problem I have with this is that it makes salvation look more like a process or method.

I have been told several times on this forum by other Catholics that “salvation” (also in need of definition) according to Catholicism, IS a process rather than a one time event wrought by God in the believer through faith in Christ. There seems to be confusion with this by Catholics

Our time here on earth is metaphorically equivalent to the OT Jews (God’s first born of many) held as slave bondage to Pharaoh (sin) and God rescuing them and transforming them through trials as they journey first through the parting seas (baptism) [which destroys their pursuing enemies] then onward as journeying pilgrims (or sheep following the shepherd) to the promised land (heaven); all while being nurtured by God with manna from heaven (Eucharist) and His Word (the water that flows from the rock in the dessert).

So then it is a process. Anyway, that’s what it looks like based on this description, as well as the Catholic doctrine of “saved,” “being saved,” and “will be saved.”

I think others have hit most of the weaker areas of your outline.

I haven’t seen any “weak” areas yet. True, it is very basic outline, but no one has yet pointed out any real error or discrepancy in it.

So the Catholic sacraments are here for us to not only restore and heal us but also to GROW us spiritually (increase the grace or spiritual capacity of our souls). While alive we are all literally in a gestation process where we can attain to spiritual maturity and gain a nature that can in theory exceed even the higher nature of the angels.

So it is a “process.”

The grace we collect here on earth stays with us for eternity

So it is a process, which entails collecting grace.

but those that rupture their souls (grave sin) and do not repent and confess lose that grace - just as a cracked clay pot can not contain water.

And ultimately the goal is not to die as a “cracked clay pot.”

None of this actually dissents or takes issue with the basic outline.

 

[moondweller]

4&5 are a little confused. Christ’s sacrifice is not the grounds for our salvation, it is our salvation. Baptism is the means by which we are connected to Christ and there-by his sacrifice.

I don’t know how this differs from Christ BEING the grounds and baptism the means to re-entering the original state of grace. Restoring that which Adam lost.

6 is a little convoluted. It’s the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, for one. The sacraments are like wedding gifts to the Bride of Christ, the Church. Technically you can retain the State of Grace without any of the sacraments after Baptism, but that would require the person to never willfully, and with full knowledge, commit a serious sin and that is a massive challenge to anyone. To that end Christ gave his apostles the authority to forgive sins, and they then passed that down to the modern bishops who intern authorize the priests to do the same. That is the sacrament of Penance. I’m not going to go into all of the sacraments, but that is the general idea. They are there to help us live the Holy lives God has planned for us with His active participation.

I don’t see how #6 dissents from what you describe here. Without your sacrament of penance/reconciliation a “cracked clay pot” (using CentralFLJame’s description) cannot be restored AGAIN to a “state of grace” which must be retained until the very moment of death.

7 builds on the rest, but yes, dying in the state of grace is dying filled with the Life-giving love of the most blessed Trinity and as such is the only way to heaven. What the Church teaches and ministers to is the normative means of salvation; the means that are spelled out and available to every one. Now there is the possibility of others being granted heaven as well, however the requirements for that are known to God alone.

Then it’s safe to say you fully agree with #7.

Basically I think you agree with the outline.

 

[moondweller]

The ultimate goal is Theosis, by avoiding Apostasy thru steadfast discipleship.
Keeping the sacraments [covenants] is God’s means of enabling us to grow up to spiritual maturity.
Yes, the Catholic Church was the first & invincible body of ‘true’ believers sealed in Christ.

So then the ultimate goal is to die in the “restored state of grace,” aided by the sacraments. There’s no “theosis” if you don’t die in a restored “state of grace.”

 

[JMMK]

In general terms its the same, but the details are important. The over simplification of anything is dangerous.

The important thing to emphasize is that all that Holy Mother Church does for the salvation of the masses is only efficacious because it is the will and power of God acting through His ordained ministers. So it’s important to get the subject/verb/object statements very precise. Even then, I’m only so-so at it.

CentralFLJames’ point about process is to reinforce that its the process of a relationship rather than an assembly line. If I read him right that is.

 

[Church_Militant]

I like my outline better as stated in my blog article, How Is A Catholic Saved?

Quit trying to codify and refute things and follow what the New Testament says. Real Christianity is both more complex and more simple than you have made it out to be.

Note also that the New Testament says that we are to grow in our faith, which is indeed “a process”.

Matthew 13:1-23
Mark 4:3-20
Luke 8:4-15
Ephesians 4:15
1st Peter 2:2
2nd Peter 3:18

 

[CentralFLJames]

I have been told several times on this forum by other Catholics that “salvation” (also in need of definition) according to Catholicism, IS a process rather than a one time event wrought by God in the believer through faith in Christ. There seems to be confusion with this by CatholicsSo then it is a process. Anyway, that’s what it looks like based on this description, as well as the Catholic doctrine of “saved,” “being saved,” and "will be saved."I haven’t seen any “weak” areas yet. True, it is very basic outline, but no one has yet pointed out any real error or discrepancy in it.So it is a "process."So it is a process, which entails collecting grace.And ultimately the goal is not to die as a “cracked clay pot.”

None of this actually dissents or takes issue with the basic outline.

OK you have a point here. I’ll concede that “it is a process” but not the sort most people think of. Let me re-express it the way I should have. It is a process - but its a Divine process it is not a formal human method or a paint-by-number salvation formula. There are no hard coded steps - but we do normally follow a sacramental sequence (baptism, confirmation, first confession, first communion - repeating the last two regularly through life in addition to prayer and spontaneous charitable works).

All this said, now I must back peddle a little and say that we DO have within some Catholic monastic and secular communities and holy orders private “disciplines” that let us take a highly disciplined approach to spiritual maturity and growth that emulate a particular saint’s discipline (e.g. Franciscan, Benedictine, etc.). But overall Catholicism is all about COOPERATING with “God’s process” and working out our own personal salvation with Him and by working with our spiritual advisors (our priest and confessor) and availing ourselves of the sacraments as much as we possibly can.

The last comment you made misses the mark. We do not hope to just maintain ourselves in a state of grace and die at a fortuitious time as you state. We actively try to productively grow our spirituality over our entire lives to increase our prayer efficacy to merit and better serve God and our fellow man through our church intercessions and then finish in the highest state of grace we can achieve. We hope that God will take us at our peak level of grace to merit us the highest possible reward in heaven and use us to the highest and best purpose (yes there is a hiearchy of rewards). But ultimately God is the architect of our salvation - we just cooperate with it as much as we possibly can by proactively availing ourselves of the sacraments and letting The Holy Spirit move and operate through us. We hope to be able to produce many good works and fruit for God to make Him proud.

James

 

[BRB]

I have been told several times on this forum by other Catholics that “salvation” (also in need of definition) according to Catholicism, IS a process rather than a one time event wrought by God in the believer through faith in Christ. There seems to be confusion with this by CatholicsSo then it is a process. Anyway, that’s what it looks like based on this description, as well as the Catholic doctrine of “saved,” “being saved,” and "will be saved."I haven’t seen any “weak” areas yet. .

I think Catholics generally accept the Protestant concept of Redemption / Spiritual Rebirth … upon that first contrite confession and baptism. Same as occurred @ Pentecost.

However, having lived most my life as a Protestant … I now see where Catholicism offers superior opportunities for receiving additional Graces thurout ones lifetime.

The full compliment of sacraments are vastly superior & more efficacious. The doctrines/dogmas of the Church are internally consistent with scripture & early Christian traditions.

You don’t have to give up S.A. to be a Catholic …
Catholics are amazingly tolerant of certain admirable Protestant beliefs. Scott Hahn is exhibit A

 

[Nickkname]

Based on my own studies and what I’ve read on this forum here’s what I perceive to be the “gospel” according to Rome1) Man was originally created in a “state of grace.”

(2) By transgressing the commandment he “fell” from his original “state of grace.”

(3) Since the fall man’s basic need is to be “restored” to his original “state of grace.”

(4) The sacrifice of Christ became the grounds for God to “restore” man to his original "state of grace.’

(5) The sacrament of water baptism then became the means by which man is “restored” to his original “state of grace.”

(6) Only through the sacraments of the one true Holy Catholic Church can man ever retain his restored “state of grace.”

(7) The goal now for the baptized is to die in this restored “state of grace” made possible only through the sacraments of the one true Holy Catholic Church.Do all Catholics on this forum agree with this assessment of your “gospel?” If not, feel free to correct where needed.

It’s the gospel of GOD! Not the gospel of Rome. Sheesh. Do your homework.

 

[moondweller]

In general terms its the same, but the details are important. The over simplification of anything is dangerous.

Which, in my studies, I’ve concluded that this is the very reason Catholicism rejected the simplicity of salvation through faith in Christ alone - too dangerous.

The important thing to emphasize is that all that Holy Mother Church does for the salvation of the masses is only efficacious because it is the will and power of God acting through His ordained ministers. So it’s important to get the subject/verb/object statements very precise. Even then, I’m only so-so at it.

But still the goal of the system is to keep its devotees, ultimately, in a restored "state of grace."

CentralFLJames’ point about process is to reinforce that its the process of a relationship rather than an assembly line. If I read him right that is.

I understand.

 

[moondweller]

I think Catholics generally accept the Protestant concept of Redemption / Spiritual Rebirth … upon that first contrite confession and baptism.

Much of Protestantism has a vastly different view of Divine redemption.