The Catholic Mass Revealed

[decn2b]

Yeah I quit watching near the beginning too. I have no problem with females serving mass (I was one once upon a time), .

You mean an altar bo… err I mean server right?

I hate to continue to comment of this though. I wore cassocks and suplices when I was an altar boy. But that was back Before girls and being an altar boy had very little to do with “helping out” at mass and almost everything to do with grooming for the priesthood. I remember the days when we had anywhere from 12-25 altar boys at Mass from little ones to H.S. boys. Everyone was very serious and even the little ones directed their attention towards the SACRIFICE at which they shared a sanctuary with. We even had the younger boys assigned to older boys as mentors. There were a total of about 60 of us. It all ended when the ponytails showed up… The last time i visited the parish I asked my mom why I never saw male servers…she said there is only 3 of them.

 

[jay29]

You mean an altar bo… err I mean server right?

I hate to continue to comment of this though. I wore cassocks and suplices when I was an altar boy. But that was back Before girls and being an altar boy had very little to do with “helping out” at mass and almost everything to do with grooming for the priesthood. I remember the days when we had anywhere from 12-25 altar boys at Mass from little ones to H.S. boys. Everyone was very serious and even the little ones directed their attention towards the SACRIFICE at which they shared a sanctuary with. We even had the younger boys assigned to older boys as mentors. There were a total of about 60 of us. It all ended when the ponytails showed up… The last time i visited the parish I asked my mom why I never saw male servers…she said there is only 3 of them.

I agree. There should also be a dress code as well. Bright white sneakers really stand out against a red carpet!

The only reason why you see “female altar servers” is because of FEMINISM, PROGRESSIVISM, and INCLUSIVISM. Those are the only reasons.The hierarchy caved to modern desires.

 

[Brendan]

Yeah I quit watching near the beginning too. I have no problem with females serving mass (I was one once upon a time),

Yes, female altar servers are allowed.

But since when is cross-dressing the altar servers a good idea?

That is my biggest ‘beef’ with this video. Cassocks are male garb in the exact same way a nun’s habit is female garb.

If a priest chooses to use altar girls, they should dress in albs, which are common to both sexes.

 

[Joysong]

That is my biggest ‘beef’ with this video. Cassocks are male garb in the exact same way a nun’s habit is female garb.

If a priest chooses to use altar girls, they should dress in albs, which are common to both sexes.

Then would the males also dress in albs? I think the idea of uniformity on the altar is an ideal that distinguishes these servers in their proper roles. We don’t dress our female choir members nor our female EMHC’s any differently than the males. All are robed alike, and to me this seems right and good. Why would anyone wish to distinguish them with different vesture than the males?

Maybe the reason the cassocks are said to be “male garb” is because formerly only the males wore them? Perfectly understandable. I would not wish to see two different sets of robes on the altar nor in processions with several altar servers. They should look the same.

 

[Ave_Maria_1]

I ordered the DVD and set. I am listening to the music right now.

The flyers in the narthex of my parish church ‘explain’ the Mass. it has 4 parts: the gathering, the storytelling, the sharing of the meal and the sending forth. So I thought it might be nice to hear a true theology of the Mass other than the gathering of the diverse community assembly we have here.

 

[jay29]

I ordered the DVD and set. I am listening to the music right now.

The flyers in the narthex of my parish church ‘explain’ the Mass. it has 4 parts: the gathering, the storytelling, the sharing of the meal and the sending forth. So I thought it might be nice to hear a true theology of the Mass other than the gathering of the diverse community assembly we have here.

Are you kidding? This is what modernism does…What a shame!

 

[decn2b]

Then would the males also dress in albs? .

Yes albs would be more appropriate

Maybe the reason the cassocks are said to be “male garb” is because formerly only the males wore them? Perfectly understandable. I would not wish to see two different sets of robes on the altar nor in processions with several altar servers. They should look the same.

True but there is a thology behind what a cassock and surplice is and Altar boys wore them because the priest wore them. No different than when I was a child and I wanted to wear a tool belt just like my dad. It had an impact on the young man. It was another means to satisfy vocation to the priesthood and still is today but nowhere near what it used to be.

Actually you do strike some interest in altar “garb” Why not have the boys dress in cassocks and surplices and the girls dress in albs! That way we can distinguish the differnce between girls who serve at the table of the lord and boys who serve at the table of the lord with the potential of priestly vocation. Being an altar girl is a dead end job as far as the mass goes, not so with the boys.

 

[Joysong]

Actually you do strike some interest in altar “garb” Why not have the boys dress in cassocks and surplices and the girls dress in albs! That way we can distinguish the differnce between girls who serve at the table of the lord and boys who serve at the table of the lord with the potential of priestly vocation.

Have you ever been to a parade, Decn? When a marching band assembles, all are dressed alike, usually trousers and a jacket, regardless if the person is male or female. The identity is not to distinguish gender, but rather the common service of musician. To p(name removed by moderator)oint the girls differently would utterly spoil the uniformity of the entire band.

Similarly, on the altar, the gender is obscured because the importance is the upon ministry of the server who assists at mass. I see no valid reason to distinguish male from female, as though this was the critical focus; rather all are in the role of service, and ALL should be dressed alike, whether it is in an alb, a cassock, or just a simple robe tied at the waist as some parishes use. I doubt any priest would go along with different vestures in order to put gender in the spotlight.

 

[Brendan]

Maybe the reason the cassocks are said to be “male garb” is because formerly only the males wore them? Perfectly understandable.

No, it’s male garb because only male DO wear them. It is a sign of the clerical state, as the habit is the sign of a nun’s state.

Novices in a convent are permitted to wear a habit, even though they are not in vows, as sign they are discerning the religious life. Altar boys are permitted to wear cassocks as a sign they too are eligible for clerical life.

A girl cannot become a cleric, she cannot be in the processes of descerning a life to the priesthood. So why should she dress as if she was?

I would not wish to see two different sets of robes on the altar nor in processions with several altar servers. They should look the same.

That’s what most parishes do that use altar girls. I’m fine with that.

 

[Joysong]

Novices in a convent are permitted to wear a habit, even though they are not in vows, as sign they are discerning the religious life. Altar boys are permitted to wear cassocks as a sign they too are eligible for clerical life.

A girl cannot become a cleric, she cannot be in the processes of descerning a life to the priesthood. So why should she dress as if she was?

Your response suggests a likelihood that anyone who wishes to serve at the altar is discerning a vocation. That would certainly limit a great number of young acolytes, for how many would fall into that premise, Brendan? If the requisite for service at the altar is that one is discerning a call to priesthood, then very few would serve at that young age.

Your premise is also that a female ought not to serve since she cannot be a priest. :ehh: There too, EMHC’s are frequently married and have no desires to become either a nun or a priest. Are they excluded from proper vesture thereby … or even from serving on the altar? I don’t believe vesture, per se, is the sign. We have adult married men serving on the altar when there is a funeral…and they are not robed, nor are they discerning a vocation.

It is more plausible that one serves out of devotion to Christ, reverencing the ministry to which they feel called. That may have been the thrust many years ago, to inspire youth to become priests, but I believe the focus has changed today. The concept of calling altar boys would seemingly limit God’s grace as though He might not call anyone else — though I do agree that some may receive the beginnings of their call within that ministry.

Is this the sole reason for commissioning altar boys? For instance, at a weekday mass, the priest has no one assisting at mass.

 

[Brendan]

Your response suggests a likelihood that anyone who wishes to serve at the altar is discerning a vocation

EVERY young person should be in the process of discerning what their vocation is in life. I personally cannot see a single reason why anyone young person should NOT be trying to figure out what God would like them to do.

Or is it your premise that a young person’s discernment is complete by the time they are in altar serving age.

And EVERY Catholic youbg person should also examine if a religious vocation is right for them. Altar service is one way that for boys to do that.

Your premise is also that a female ought not to serve since she cannot be a priest. :ehh:

Where exactly did I say cannot be altar servers.

My premise is: While girls are serving at the altar, they should not dress as if they were clerics, or discerning a vocation to clerical life.

A great example, we had 4 of our parish’s seminarians return for Mass to day. They all wore cassocks. Why would a parish want altar girls to dress like they were seminarians?

There too, EMHC’s are frequently married and have no desires to become either a nun or a priest. Are they excluded from proper vesture thereby … or even from serving on the altar?.

Are your EMHC’s dressing like clerics or nuns while performing their service.

And a case could certainly be made for male EMHC’s to wear cassocks as a sign of discernment towards diaconal ministry, which is also clerical.

 

[decn2b]

That would certainly limit a great number of young acolytes, for how many would fall into that premise, Brendan? If the requisite for service at the altar is that one is discerning a call to priesthood, then very few would serve at that young age. .

Almost ALL acolytes are on the path to priesthood. In fact until 1973 Acolytes and Lecotors were two of the minor orders to the priesthood. ALL acolytes today are male.

Your response suggests a likelihood that anyone who wishes to serve at the altar is discerning a vocation.

You are 1000% correct on that one, at least that was the way it used to be. That is partly why young men dressed in the same “garb” as the priest. It was one of the very effective ways to get boys to realize a vocation.

There too, EMHC’s are frequently married and have no desires to become either a nun or a priest…

I don’t speak for Brendan but assure you EMHCs are way way way overused anyway. When Altar boys were only BOYS there were no EMHCs either…Hmmm

I don’t believe vesture, per se, is the sign. …

You do not understand the theology behind vesture then.

We have adult married men serving on the altar when there is a funeral…and they are not robed, nor are they discerning a vocation. …

Again in the past boys were used for Funerals. Taking a boy out of School for a funeral is still common practice today AND when I was young I served at funerals and Getting out of School impressed upon me the importance of the Altar boy and his potential vocation to the priesthood.
If adults are serving Mass in the capacity formerly reserved to the Altar boy they should be wearing an Alb.

That may have been the thrust many years ago, to inspire youth to become priests, but I believe the focus has changed today. …

You are 1000% correct on this…and look at empty seminaries!

The concept of calling altar boys would seemingly limit God’s grace as though He might not call anyone else …

Glad you used the word seemingly. Well since God CANNOT call a Girl to the priesthood how do you see that a calling from the ranks of altar boys would some how be a limited grace. There are Barely any priests who were never altar boys. I cannot think of one priest who was never an altar boy. Furthermore I think that allowing Girls to the priesthood would be the limitation placed on Gods grace. I know of TWO (2) young men in my class who were very seriously consiering the priesthood, BOTH left the ranks of ALtar servers the day the girls showed up. There is two very potential vocations killed right there. (of course this happened around 25 years ago) At my home parish boys wont serve because its a girl thing.

Is this the sole reason for commissioning altar boys? For instance, at a weekday mass, the priest has no one assisting at mass.

Sole reason no but it used to be a primary reason. If a boy got into H.S. and he KNEW he wasn’t going to become a priest then he usually left the ranks of altar boys. At least thats the way it was in my neck of the woods.

 

[Joysong]

Dear Brendan and Decn,

I want to acknowledge that I have read your responses, and considered your points of view. Yet I honestly don’t want to get into a hassle over our opinions, which remain strong on both sides. All I can say in conclusion, is that the Church permits both genders, decides how they will be robed, and gives the theology for their service in the parish. If either of us disagrees, it remains simply our personal opinion over which we have no control or authority. Thanks for replying.

 

[AlexV]

“Theology” of their service??

Gobbledygook. Typical of these days.

 

[jay29]

“Theology” of their service??

Gobbledygook. Typical of these days.

Modernism, what a plague! There is NO theology behind female altar servers. The hierarchy caved to feminists. That right there is the bottom line.

 

[decn2b]

Dear Brendan and Decn,

All I can say in conclusion, is that the Church permits both genders, decides how they will be robed, and gives the theology for their service in the parish.

Yes the church decides. That is the local church. There are places in the CHurch where the male only Altar server exists. If you lived in the Lincoln, NE Diocese and you are a female then you would NOT be an altar server. Interestingly enough Lincoln has priests coming out their ears! And they have religious sisters (the kind that wear habits) in abundance too.

Arlington, VA just started allowing Girl Altar servers. It will be interesting to see if their seminaries have a drop off. If so you can count on my “opinion” being shared again.

 

[Rolltide]

Yes the church decides. That is the local church. There are places in the CHurch where the male only Altar server exists. If you lived in the Lincoln, NE Diocese and you are a female then you would NOT be an altar server. Interestingly enough Lincoln has priests coming out their ears! And they have religious sisters (the kind that wear habits) in abundance too.

Arlington, VA just started allowing Girl Altar servers. It will be interesting to see if their seminaries have a drop off. If so you can count on my “opinion” being shared again.

This does beg a question, however. It is common knowledge that the Diocese of Lincoln, NE is the most faithful and conservative diocese in the nation. So… is the large number of seminarians in Lincoln due to the exclusive use of altar boys, or the fact that many die-hard traditionalist Catholics, who naturally would be the MOST likely to join a seminary, tend to flock to the diocese due to it’s conservatism? What we need, as you say, is a control. We need a more liberal diocese to experiment and try switching to all-male altar servers. If the numbers go up, then the proof is in the pudding. I suspect that it’s a combination of both factors.

 

[decn2b]

… is the large number of seminarians in Lincoln due to the exclusive use of altar boys, or the fact that many die-hard traditionalist Catholics, who naturally would be the MOST likely to join a seminary, tend to flock to the diocese due to it’s conservatism? What we need, as you say, is a control. We need a more liberal diocese to experiment and try switching to all-male altar servers. If the numbers go up, then the proof is in the pudding. I suspect that it’s a combination of both factors.

Not to contractict myself but I believe that the male only altar server is only one small cog in the Lincoln priest factory. So I highly doubt that it is an EITHER/OR situation. (altar boys/or conservative)

Arlington recently switced so I guess your “test” can be applied to Arlington. My hunch is that orthodoxy/traditionalism plays a bigger role, but male only server is part of that orthodoxy.

My opionion flocking to a diocese because of its reputation is likely a conervative Catholic thing. I have never heard of a Liberal diocese being a magnet attracting progressives.

It would be interesting to see how much commotion going male only would cause in a liberal. There no doubt would be some serious wailing and teeth knashing.

 

[ChemicalBean]

You mean an altar bo… err I mean server right?

Heha! Yeah - yes to clarify I mean that I was an altar server once upon a time. I am still female - don’t get too excited.

 

[hosemonkey]

Let’s face it, female altar servers began as a liturgical abuse by U.S. “progressive” bishops and was only approved because JPII knew that selfsame bishops would disobey any strong sanction. Now it is “old custom” and most US catholics do not know any better. Same holds true for the hordes of middle-aged ladies flocking around the altar distributing Holy Communion. Another liturgical abuse that has become accepted, not as an “extraordinary” privelige, but as a “right.” Boys DO see altar service as a “girl thing” and react accordingly. I have nine daughters and none of them ever felt a burning need to become altar servers. Changes are needed and a return to male altar servers is one of them.