The Catholic/Orthodox Division over Filioque

  • Thread starter Thread starter Rocky
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
R

Rocky

Guest
I have wondered why there is so much division between Catholics and Orthodox over the addition of the “Filioque” when the bible has instances of equating the Spirit to Christ as in
*Philippians 2:1-13, Romans 8:10, Colossians 1:28 and 1 Peter 1:11. *
 
I have wondered why there is so much division between Catholics and Orthodox over the addition of the “Filioque” when the bible has instances of equating the Spirit to Christ as in
*Philippians 2:1-13, Romans 8:10, Colossians 1:28 and 1 Peter 1:11. *
Please take this with a grain of salt, as I am a Catholic. It seems like the issue has less to do with theology and more to do with the Primacy of Rome. Those of the East feel that the Pope went over his authority when he added the “and the son” to the creed. The Theological arguments were cast aside for the discussion of Papal Authority. I am not saying that the Filioque should not be discussed on its own merits, but it never seems to happen without discussing the pope.
 
It has happened with him.

Pope Leo III forbade the addition of “filioque” to Nicene Creed which was added by Franks in Aachen in 809. He also ordered that the Nicene creed be engraved on silver tablets at St. Peter’s and at St. Paul’s outside the Walls so that his conclusion might not be overturned in the future. He wrote «HAEC LEO POSUI AMORE ET CAUTELA ORTHODOXAE FIDEI» (I, Leo, put here for love and protection of Orthodox Faith)(VITA LEONIS, LIBER PONTIFICALIS (Ed.Duchene, TII, p.26)

As for the difference:

John 15:26 He Himself says that the Spirit proceeds from the Father. The Son says nothing of Himsef.
 
Isa,
Do the Orthodox accept the “From the Father Through the Son” idea?

What about John 20:22, when he breathed on them and said “recieve the Holy Spirit?”
 
It’s only wrong if it intends to create two principles or two spirations, which is not how the Catholic Church understands it (cf. Lyons II, Florence).
 
Isa,
Do the Orthodox accept the “From the Father Through the Son” idea?
Yes. Perichoresis.
What about John 20:22, when he breathed on them and said “recieve the Holy Spirit?”
Economic trinity. Deals with the relationship of the Holy Trinity with His creation. The clause of the Creed deals with the eternal progression (the original word, “eporeusis” shows this: even Rome will not, at least now, allow the filioque in Greek because the resulting mess is heretical by their standard, and of course, by ours). It is a term exclusively of the Theological trinity (the relationship of the Trinity within Himself).
 
Ask a long time South Carolinian what caused the American Civil War and he might just answer “Oh, you mean the War of Northern Agression?”

Sometimes the reasons stated for a conflict aren’t the full reasons for the conflict. (I hesitate to mention Iraq as an example…)
 
I am lothe to do so, but from wikipedia
The filioque was originally proposed to stress more clearly the connection between the Son and the Spirit, amid a heresy in which the Son was taken as less than the Father because he does not serve as a source of the Holy Spirit. When the filioque came into use in Spain and Gaul in the West, the local churches were not aware that their language of procession would not translate well back into the Greek. Conversely, from Photius to the Council of Florence, the Greek Fathers were also not acquainted with the linguistic issues.
The origins of the filioque in the West are found in the writings of certain Church Fathers in the West and especially in the anti-Arian situation of 7th-century Spain. In this context, the filioque was a means to affirm the full divinity of both the Spirit and the Son. It is not just a question of establishing a connection with the Father and his divinity; it is a question of reinforcing the profession of Catholic faith in the fact that both the Son and Spirit share the fullness of God’s nature.
This seems to indicate that the understanding of the filioque is a result of fighting a heresy. If you take the Eastern View, does the heresy that the Son is lesser than the Father because of the lack of the ability to send the Spirit gain traction? Further, how does the Orthodox Church explain the verses connecting the SPirit and the Son as posted by Rocky?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filioque_clause
 
This site shows Eastern and Western Church Fathers and Early Christian writers who seem to support the Filioque.

catholic.com/library/Filioque.asp

Is it possible that the issue is not Theological at all in any way shape or form?
 
I know that the filioque is (or isn’t) in the Nicene Creed. But this is using language to describe the relationship among the persons of the Trinity. This is so far beyond our understanding that we can only have the merest inkling of this relationship. And to try to put it in different languages… And can we even define ‘proceeds’ or ‘spirates’ clearly enough for a person to envision what they mean?? Did the eastern and western church really differ so much in our (extremely limited by our human intellect) understanding of the Trinity that we broke unity over it? Lord, have mercy! Kyrie eleison.
 
I know that the filioque is (or isn’t) in the Nicene Creed. But this is using language to describe the relationship among the persons of the Trinity. This is so far beyond our understanding that we can only have the merest inkling of this relationship. And to try to put it in different languages… And can we even define ‘proceeds’ or ‘spirates’ clearly enough for a person to envision what they mean?? Did the eastern and western church really differ so much in our (extremely limited by our human intellect) understanding of the Trinity that we broke unity over it? Lord, have mercy! Kyrie eleison.
As far as the linguistics go, the Romantic languages do work differently than Greek. I am not surprised that a concept may not translate well in a word or two.

Now about the Trinity, according to my limited research, the East and West did have slightly different understandings.

From the New Advent site
newadvent.org/cathen/06001a.htm
In a word, the Latins are philosophers, and the Easterns are not. The East can speculate and wrangle about theology, but it cannot grasp a large view. It is in accordance with this that it was in the West, after all the struggle was over, that the Trinitarian doctrine was completely systematized by Augustine; in the West, that the Athanasian creed was formulated.
and
The essential Monotheism of Christianity is not saved in the West by saying there is “one God the Father”, as in all the Eastern creeds, but the theologians teach the unity of the Divine essence, in which subsist three Persons. If Tertullian and Novatian use subordinationist language of the Son (perhaps borrowed from the East), it is of little consequence in comparison with their main doctrine, that there is one substance of the Father and of the Son. Callistus excommunicates equally those who deny the distinction of Persons, and those who refuse to assert the unity of substance. Pope Dionysius is shocked that his namesake did not use the word “consubstantial” – this is more than sixty years before Nicaea. At that great council a Western bishop has the first place, with two Roman priests, and the result of the discussion is that the Roman word “consubstantial” is imposed up on all. In the East the council is succeeded by a conspiracy of silence; the Orientals will not use the word. Even Alexandria, which had kept to the doctrine of Dionysius of Rome, is not convinced that the policy was good and Athanasius spends his life in fighting for Nicaea, yet rarely uses the crucial word. It takes half a century for the Easterns to digest it; and when they do so, they do not make the most of its meaning. It is curious how little interest even Athanasius shows in the Unity of the Trinity, which he scarcely mentions except when quoting the Dionysii; it is Didymus and the Cappadocians who word Trinitarian doctrine in the manner since consecrated by the centuries – three hypostases, one usia; but this is merely the conventional translation of the ancient Latin formula, though it was new to the East.
These quotes are found in the East West section and the theology section near the bottom. The Creed Attributed to Athanasius has been thought as NOT coming from hin since at least the 12th century.
 
You also have these Church Fathers and Early Christian Writers chiming in.
Tertullian
“I believe that the Spirit proceeds not otherwise than from the Father through the Son” (Against Praxeas 4:1 [A.D. 216]).
“We believe, however, that there are three persons: the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; and we believe none to be unbegotten except the Father. We admit, as more pious and true, that all things were produced through the Word, and that the Holy Spirit is the most excellent and the first in order of all that was produced by the Father through Christ” (Commentaries on John 2:6 [A.D. 229]).
Maximus the Confessor
"By nature the Holy Spirit in his being takes substantially his origin from the Father through the Son who is begotten (Questions to Thalassium 63 [A.D. 254]).
Gregory the Wonderworker
“[There is] one Holy Spirit, having substance from God, and who is manifested through the Son; image of the Son, perfect of the perfect; life, the cause of living; holy fountain; sanctity, the dispenser of sanctification; in whom is manifested God the Father who is above all and in all, and God the Son who is through all. Perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty neither divided nor estranged” (Confession of Faith [A.D. 265]).
Hilary of Poitiers
“Concerning the Holy Spirit . . . it is not necessary to speak of him who must be acknowledged, who is from the Father and the Son, his sources” (The Trinity 2:29 [A.D. 357]).
“In the fact that before times eternal your [the Father’s] only-begotten [Son] was born of you, when we put an end to every ambiguity of words and difficulty of understanding, there remains only this: he was born. So too, even if I do not grasp it in my understanding, I hold fast in my consciousness to the fact that your Holy Spirit is from you through him” (ibid., 12:56).
Didymus the Blind
“As we have understood discussions . . . about the incorporeal natures, so too it is now to be recognized that the Holy Spirit receives from the Son that which he was of his own nature. . . . So too the Son is said to receive from the Father the very things by which he subsists. For neither has the Son anything else except those things given him by the Father, nor has the Holy Spirit any other substance than that given him by the Son” (The Holy Spirit 37 [A.D. 362]).
Epiphanius of Salamis
“The Father always existed and the Son always existed, and the Spirit breathes from the Father and the Son” (The Man Well-Anchored 75 [A.D. 374]).
Basil The Great
“Through the Son, who is one, he [the Holy Spirit] is joined to the Father, one who is one, and by himself completes the Blessed Trinity” (The Holy Spirit 18:45 [A.D. 375]).
“[T]he goodness of [the divine] nature, the holiness of [that] nature, and the royal dignity reach from the Father through the only-begotten [Son] to the Holy Spirit. Since we confess the persons in this manner, there is no infringing upon the holy dogma of the monarchy” (ibid., 18:47).
Ambrose of Milan
“Just as the Father is the fount of life, so too, there are many who have stated that the Son is designated as the fount of life. It is said, for example that with you, Almighty God, your Son is the fount of life, that is, the fount of the Holy Spirit. For the Spirit is life, just as the Lord says: ‘The words which I have spoken to you are Spirit and life’ [John 6:63]” (The Holy Spirit 1:15:152 [A.D. 381]).
“The Holy Spirit, when he proceeds from the Father and the Son, does not separate himself from the Father and does not separate himself from the Son” (ibid., 1:2:120).
Gregory of Nyssa
“[The] Father conveys the notion of unoriginate, unbegotten, and Father always; the only-begotten Son is understood along with the Father, coming from him but inseparably joined to him. Through the Son and with the Father, immediately and before any vague and unfounded concept interposes between them, the Holy Spirit is also perceived conjointly” (Against Eunomius 1 [A.D. 382]).
I stopped before Augustine. I am looking at Eastern primarily.
 
You also have these Church Fathers and Early Christian Writers chiming in.

I stopped before Augustine. I am looking at Eastern primarily.
I seems to me that these men aren’t all saying the same thing. Don’t we (Catholics) believe that the Trinity existed as Trinity from all eternity? The Father never existed even an instant before the Son and the Holy Spirit was with the Father and Son always. In normal usage the word ‘proceeds’ usually indicates one thing existed, followed by something coming from it. When Hilary of Poitiers talks about “before times eternal” the Son was born of the Father, it doesn’t make sense logically because there was nothing before times eternal.

And your point in posting all these was maybe that language doesn’t describe God that well?
 
I seems to me that these men aren’t all saying the same thing. Don’t we (Catholics) believe that the Trinity existed as Trinity from all eternity? The Father never existed even an instant before the Son and the Holy Spirit was with the Father and Son always. In normal usage the word ‘proceeds’ usually indicates one thing existed, followed by something coming from it. When Hilary of Poitiers talks about “before times eternal” the Son was born of the Father, it doesn’t make sense logically because there was nothing before times eternal.

And your point in posting all these was maybe that language doesn’t describe God that well?
I agree that human language does not describe God well. My reason for posting these is to point out that the Church Fathers seemed to hold to both sides.
 
Most of those quotes speak of the Holy Spirit as being from the Father through the Son, which could easily have been said if that’s what was meant. Why say "Who proceeds from the Father and the Son if you really mean through the Son. Those two words seem to make a big difference… 🤷
 
Most of those quotes speak of the Holy Spirit as being from the Father through the Son, which could easily have been said if that’s what was meant. Why say "Who proceeds from the Father and the Son if you really mean through the Son. Those two words seem to make a big difference… 🤷
I agree. I am still studying the whole thing. When I read “Father and the Son,” I read that it could be Father or Father and Son or Son. Father through Son fits, but like you said, it seems to be stretching it. I still have not seen anyone respond to the verses that Rocky put in the origional post.

Isa, when the pope posted that it is to preserve the Orthodox Faith, are you saying that it was against that Catholic faith, or are you saying that he was preserving the old way of thinking?
 
I agree. I am still studying the whole thing. When I read “Father and the Son,” I read that it could be Father or Father and Son or Son. Father through Son fits, but like you said, it seems to be stretching it. I still have not seen anyone respond to the verses that Rocky put in the origional post.

Isa, when the pope posted that it is to preserve the Orthodox Faith, are you saying that it was against that Catholic faith, or are you saying that he was preserving the old way of thinking?
I am saying that the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church which has the Orthodox (Catholic) Faith does not teach filioque.

Never has.

Never will.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top