The Catholic/Orthodox Schism Much Older Than Believed?

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It is not a dig, it is a matter of logic, history, scripture and tradition, i.e., there can only be one person/bishop to hold the primacy, and in the Bible that person was PETER, hence, it is illogical to think that after Peter died, there were three sees/bishops sharing the primacy/office of Peter. We also know that St. Peter left Antioch, and went to Rome, wherein he passed on his primacy to his successor in ROME. Furthermore, I do not deny that Antioch and/or Alexandria are Petrine sees, but this does not mean that Antioch and/or Antioch hold the office of Peter, i.e., they are his successor in the sense that he was once a bishop and/or founder of that see, but they did not in the end hold the primacy because his office was passed onto the bishop of Rome, the city in which was he was bishop when he died.
Now you’re changing the argument. The first argument was about succession - my retort was that Antioch and Alexandria have true succession which you now agree with. Rome’s primacy is not in dispute by me, as I’m Catholic - however, the Orthodox have claimed that the primacy is no longer due to heresy/schism by Rome.
If you need further proof that Rome held the primacy because of Peter and the Petrine office which he bestowed on the bishops of Rome after his death, here it is:
I don’t need proof, however, quoting a pro-Roman stance of a Roman Pope doesn’t prove that much - since the argument is that Rome has in deed made the claim however it wasn’t necessarily agreed upon by everyone else.
 
The Catholic Church seems to misunderstand when Jesus said, “the gates of hell shall not prevail” against the church.

They interpret the analogy as if hell is attacking and the church is defending. But do “city gates” attack? Don’t they defend whatever is behind them?

So Jesus wasn’t talking about the church being on the defense against false doctrine (aka an “infallible papacy”). He was talking about hell being unable to withstand the attacks of he church!
 
The other two non-Catholic Petrine Sees would say the same about Rome however.

Right, but this isn’t an argument only a Catholic talking point. By the way, the Biblical verse says “the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church” not the ‘bishop of Rome’.

Again, this can be lobbed right back And?
I don’t think any reasonable Christian would contradict what Jesus reveals here which appears that your view contradicts scripture;

Matthew 16:
17
Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood* has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church,* and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it

St. Irenaeus and all other pre-Constantinople ECF’s all agree and follow Jesus teaching. Who rename’s Simon name to Kepha = Rock. It is this “Rock”= Peter = Church that the "netherworld SHALL NOT prevail against.

What is most revealing is that the ECF’s are all in agreement (pre-Constantinople) that all other Church’s must be in full communion with Peter to be the **One **Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

To the heretics the saints write, if you are not in communion with the Rock to which Jesus builds His Church, you are outside the body of Christ.

It is not my view, it is Jesus teaching that is also revealed in John 17, John 21. Jesus, and Paul do not teach that a Church apart from the Rock = Peter, exist independently by itself. The Rock is Peter whom Jesus reveals "the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

Can you show where Jesus or an Epistle reveals that all Church’s are autocephalous apart from Peter? Which according to your new invented post-Constantinople view, supposedly reveals that Jesus builds His Church’s on everybody’s Church.

Let’s stick to the revelations or our Lord, and keep post-Constantinople politics out of the Church.

Besides is an autocephalous Church independent of each other by secular authority or by religious authority?
 
Here_For_Donuts;13338103]The Catholic Church seems to misunderstand when Jesus said, “the gates of hell shall not prevail” against the church.
So Jesus wasn’t talking about the church being on the defense against false doctrine (aka an “infallible papacy”). He was talking about hell being unable to withstand the attacks of he church!
Matthew 16:
17
**Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church,
and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it

19 **I will give you the keys *to the kingdom of heaven. **Whatever you **bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and **whatever you **loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

**Jesus speaks **and discharges His authority of His Keys on earth directly to Peter alone in the presence of all his disciples.

It is when God the Father reveals to Simon alone from heaven who Jesus is, that Jesus builds HIS Church upon Peter.
Hail Mary full of Grace…
 
I don’t think any reasonable Christian would contradict what Jesus reveals here which appears that your view contradicts scripture;

Matthew 16:
17
Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood* has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church,* and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it

St. Irenaeus and all other pre-Constantinople ECF’s all agree and follow Jesus teaching. Who rename’s Simon name to Kepha = Rock. It is this “Rock”= Peter = Church that the "netherworld SHALL NOT prevail against.

What is most revealing is that the ECF’s are all in agreement (pre-Constantinople) that all other Church’s must be in full communion with Peter to be the **One **Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

To the heretics the saints write, if you are not in communion with the Rock to which Jesus builds His Church, you are outside the body of Christ.

It is not my view, it is Jesus teaching that is also revealed in John 17, John 21. Jesus, and Paul do not teach that a Church apart from the Rock = Peter, exist independently by itself. The Rock is Peter whom Jesus reveals "the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

Can you show where Jesus or an Epistle reveals that all Church’s are autocephalous apart from Peter? Which according to your new invented post-Constantinople view, supposedly reveals that Jesus builds His Church’s on everybody’s Church.

If it is by secular authority, then the Patriarchal offices post Constantinople exist by secular imperial mandate?. If it is by religious authority the body appears to be divided and will persist in conflict and contradiction of one another?

There is only one body, one faith, one Spirit, one baptism. There cannot be multiple of these independent of one another.

Let’s stick to the revelations or our Lord, and keep post-Constantinople politics out of the Church.

Besides is an autocephalous Church independent of each other by secular authority or by religious authority?
 
Matthew 16:
17
**Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church,
and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it

19 **I will give you *the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

**Jesus speaks **and discharges His authority of His Keys on earth directly to Peter alone in the presence of all his disciples.

It is when God the Father reveals to Simon alone from heaven who Jesus is, that Jesus builds HIS Church upon Peter.
Hail Mary full of Grace…
Many church fathers and saints wiser than either of us interpreted this passage in many ways. St. Stephen as pope interpreted it the Roman Catholic way, and St. Cyprian rebuked him by interpreting as Orthodox today do.

Cyprian, when writing* On the Unity of the Church*, felt that every bishop sat on Peter’s throne.

The Lord saith unto Peter, I say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, shall be loosed in heaven. To him again, after His resurrection, He says, Feed My sheep. Upon him being one He builds His Church; and although He gives to all the Apostles an equal power, and says, As My Father sent Me, even so I send you; receive ye the Holy Ghost: whosoever sins ye remit, they shall be remitted to him, and whosoever sins ye shall retain, they shall be retained—yet in order to manifest unity, He has by His own authority so placed the source of the same unity, as to begin from one.

Certainly the other Apostles also were what Peter was, endued with an equal fellowship both of honour and power; but a commencement is made from unity, that the Church may be set before as one; which one Church, in the Song of Songs, doth the Holy Spirit design and name in the Person of our Lord: My dove, My spotless one, is but one; she is the only one of her mother, elect of her that bare her.

Our Lord whose precepts and warnings we ought to observe, determining the honour of a Bishop and the ordering of His own Church, speaks in the Gospel and says to Peter, I say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build My Church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven. Thence the ordination of Bishops, and the ordering of the Church, runs down along the course of time and line of succession, so that the Church is settled upon her Bishops; and every act of the Church is regulated by these same Prelates
.

It’s very telling that Rome in the 9th century used forged documents to justify an attempt to stretch its reach into eastern churches and attack the Patriarch Photius.
 
Look Gabriel, there are multiple interpretations on both the verses and what is meant by “Peter” in this instance - for one, all bishops claim some Petrine authority within their own see. Second, Rome, Alexandria and Antioch are all Petrine specifically. Third, I don’t have a “new invented post-Constantinople view” at all, my church is Oriental Catholic (Malankara Syriac), so keep that name-calling for someone else.

Lastly, I agree Peter is special by Divine Appointment and that Rome holds Primacy - however, the exercise of this hasn’t been perfect and especially in regard to the East sometimes abysmal. This is not to excuse Schism but to give you some perspective why extremists on all sides assist schism not heal it.
 
The Catholic Church seems to misunderstand when Jesus said, “the gates of hell shall not prevail” against the church.

They interpret the analogy as if hell is attacking and the church is defending. But do “city gates” attack? Don’t they defend whatever is behind them?

So Jesus wasn’t talking about the church being on the defense against false doctrine (aka an “infallible papacy”). He was talking about hell being unable to withstand the attacks of he church!
I am 49 years old, and for all my life as a Catholic I have been taught that we are on the offensive, attacking the gates of Hell. My mom is almost 90, same for her. Every other Catholic I know, knows we are on the offensive. That is why we are called the Church Militant on Earth. Your view that the Church misunderstands is a new one to me.
 
The schism is not older than believed. The differences that led up to you the schism are very old, but everyone knows that. But the actual dating of the schism is concrete.
 
I am 49 years old, and for all my life as a Catholic I have been taught that we are on the offensive, attacking the gates of Hell. My mom is almost 90, same for her. Every other Catholic I know, knows we are on the offensive. That is why we are called the Church Militant on Earth. Your view that the Church misunderstands is a new one to me.
I agree, the Catholic Church does not teach this incorrectly - some apologists and other have though. The Church has been consistent though.
 
Regarding schism, why do some Catholics completely distort Photius and make him out to be an evil man?

newadvent.org/cathen/12043b.htm

The very first thing the article starts with is debunked legends about Photius (probably to imprint negative thoughts in the reader’s mind), then coyly adds that these stories shouldn’t be believed. After this, the article completely disorts events, making it seem as if Rome was innocent and Photius was a no-good rascal.
 
SyroMalankara; Look Gabriel, there are multiple interpretations on both the verses and what is meant by “Peter” in this instance - for one, all bishops claim some Petrine authority within their own see.
I agree, every valid apostolic successor possesses the divine keys to bind and loose, to forgive sin and preach, teach the gospel revelations of our dear Lord Jesus Christ.

What appears to be misleading and confusing within these threads, reveals the misunderstanding of the keys of the Kingdom being exercised with full divine authority at the local ( Bishop) Church level, to Which St. Cyprian and other Eastern Father’s speak of.

Is never to be confused with the Keys of binding and losing upon the whole Church in every age, that calls forth Peter (Bishop of Rome) and his fellow bishops in council to exercise the Keys upon the whole earth.

Hence we have Saints such as Cyprian communicating or forcing his views in contradiction to what is held by the Universal Church, which calls Peter or the bishop of Rome to confront and call his fellow brethren (Bishop) back to unity of faith. When a bishop refuses Peter’s call to return to the apostolic faith of Jesus Christ, after much discussion, letter’s and communication. Synod, councils on matters pertaining to the apostolic faith at the local level or world wide level are called.

It is Peter by singular divine given authority of the Keys in communion with his brethren (apostolic successors) to exercise the divine keys upon the whole earth.
This has always been the apostolic practice since the first council in Jerusalem, when all fell silent after Peter spoke. Rome has not moved from this position.

In summaary every valiid apostolic successor possesses the same Petrine divine keys to bind anad loose at the local (Bishop) level.

Yet,Jesus gave Peter singularly the keys to the kingdom of heaven to bind and loose upon the whole earth.

I have no problem with the Saints writing and revealing their divine Petrine keys of authority at the local level.

But no single Bishop was given the divine keys to bind and loose upon the whole earth except Peter alone, in communion with his brethren.
Lastly, I agree Peter is special by Divine Appointment and that Rome holds Primacy - however, the exercise of this hasn’t been perfect and especially in regard to the East sometimes abysmal. This is not to excuse Schism but to give you some perspective why extremists on all sides assist schism not heal it.
Your point is well taken. The exercise of the Primacy of Peter when the Church in her infancy was not infected by secular powers on both sides of the Church. Rome has finally set herself free from secular powers.

The Roman Catholic Church has returned today to the times when the apostle Peter is free of secular powers, although the persecution against Peter (Bishop of Rome) continues today, as the Lord foretold Peter. Rome, now experienced from the ages since the resurrection is calling her brethren back once again.

Communication is key to understanding our apostolic faith that is expressed in diversity of langauages and cultures, that appears to be a stumbling block which prevents mutual understanding.

The tolerance that is gained by removing the intolerance’s, reveals that one apostolic faith is never divided nor torn asunder but our apostolic faith is stemming from a pure diversity of faith expression, prays for the Holy Spirit, who reveals to us and brings understanding of all the revelations of Jesus Christ who sends HIM from the Father. When Jesus prays for us to His Father, that we would all remain as one, just as the Son and the Father are One.

P.S my comment of the Post-Constantinople view of the primacy of Peter is spoken in a general context addressing the thread, it is never intended to offend or name call anyone. If my post offended you as a name call? please accept my correction here and my sentiment of not to offend you or anyone here.

Peace be with you
 
Regarding schism, why do some Catholics completely distort Photius and make him out to be an evil man?

newadvent.org/cathen/12043b.htm

The very first thing the article starts with is debunked legends about Photius (probably to imprint negative thoughts in the reader’s mind), then coyly adds that these stories shouldn’t be believed. After this, the article completely disorts events, making it seem as if Rome was innocent and Photius was a no-good rascal.
That was an older reference for English speaking Catholics, no longer considered as authoritative as it once was. For a counter example, some Byzantine Catholics include Photius in their commemorations on the same day as their Orthodox counterparts.
 
Regarding schism, why do some Catholics completely distort Photius and make him out to be an evil man?

newadvent.org/cathen/12043b.htm

The very first thing the article starts with is debunked legends about Photius (probably to imprint negative thoughts in the reader’s mind), then coyly adds that these stories shouldn’t be believed. After this, the article completely disorts events, making it seem as if Rome was innocent and Photius was a no-good rascal.
Here’s a bit more on St. Photius:
thebananarepublican1.wordpress.com/2009/10/16/st-photios-the-great-died-in-communion-with-rome/
 
I agree, every valid apostolic successor possesses the divine keys to bind and loose, to forgive sin and preach, teach the gospel revelations of our dear Lord Jesus Christ.

What appears to be misleading and confusing within these threads, reveals the misunderstanding of the keys of the Kingdom being exercised with full divine authority at the local ( Bishop) Church level, to Which St. Cyprian and other Eastern Father’s speak of.

Is never to be confused with the Keys of binding and losing upon the whole Church in every age, that calls forth Peter (Bishop of Rome) and his fellow bishops in council to exercise the Keys upon the whole earth.

Hence we have Saints such as Cyprian communicating or forcing his views in contradiction to what is held by the Universal Church, which calls Peter or the bishop of Rome to confront and call his fellow brethren (Bishop) back to unity of faith. When a bishop refuses Peter’s call to return to the apostolic faith of Jesus Christ.

It is Peter by singular divine authority of the Keys in communion with his brethren (apostolic successors) to exercise the divine keys upon the whole earth.
This has always been the apostolic practice since the first council in Jerusalem, when all fell silent after Peter spoke. Rome has not moved from this position.

In summaary every valiid apostolic successor possesses the same Petrine divine keys to bind anad loose at the local (Bishop) level.

Yet,Jesus gave Peter singularly the keys to the kingdom of heaven to bind and loose upon the whole earth.

I have no problem with the Saints writing and revealing their divine Petrine keys of authority at the local level.

But no single Bishop was given the divine keys to bind and loose upon the whole earth except Peter alone, in communion with his brethren.

Lastly, I agree Peter is special by Divine Appointment and that Rome holds Primacy - however, the exercise of this hasn’t been perfect and especially in regard to the East sometimes abysmal. This is not to excuse Schism but to give you some perspective why extremists on all sides assist schism not heal it.

Your point is well taken. The exercise of the Primacy of Peter when the Church in her infancy was not infected by secular powers on both sides of the Church. Rome has finally set herself free from secular powers.

The Roman Catholic Church has returned today to the times when the apostle Peter is free of secular powers, although the persecution against Peter (Bishop of Rome) continues today, as the Lord foretold Peter. Rome, now experienced from the ages since the resurrection is calling her brethren back once again.

Communication is key to understanding our apostolic faith that is expressed in diversity of langauages and cultures, that appears to be a stumbling block which prevents mutual understanding.

The tolerance that is gained by removing the intolerance’s, reveals that one apostolic faith is never divided nor torn asunder but our apostolic faith is stemming from a pure diversity of faith expression, prays for the Holy Spirit, who reveals to us and brings understanding of all the revelations of Jesus Christ who sends HIM from the Father. When Jesus prays for us to His Father, that we would all remain as one, just as the Son and the Father are One.

P.S my comment of the Post-Constantinople view of the primacy of Peter is spoken in a general context addressing the thread, it is never intended to offend or name call anyone. If my post offended you as a name call? please accept my correction here and my sentiment of not to offend you or anyone here.

Peace be with you
This Roman Catholic view of history is completely anachronistic.

I have one question that Catholics can never seem to answer:

If Peter’s divine authority as head of the church was understood from day 1, then why did bishops outside of the Roman Empire have absolutely no awareness of this?

The bishops in the Assyrian Empire learned about the Council of Nicea in 410. They only decided to accept it after holding a council of their own and determining that Nicea is correct and worthy of acceptance because its teachings “agree with the faith handed down from their fathers.” There’s absolutely no mention of Rome or “obeying the council because Rome says so.”

When papal legates reached India in the 16th century, the Indian bishops, who had been there since the second century, had no awareness of a papacy or supreme bishop of any sort whatsoever. The papal legates used violence to make some of the Indian church submit, but not all did.

How is it that the Assyrian and Indian churches maintain everything else correctly (the sacraments, apostolic succession, etc) but not what should be “universal knowledge” according to Roman Catholics? If Christ truly ha established the office of the papacy, and if the apostles and earliest Christians were aware of it (including the first missionaries to India), then how can the Indians magically forget this one key fact?

This is one reason why the Roman Catholic belief in a papacy is absurd to me.
 
This Roman Catholic view of history is completely anachronistic.

I have one question that Catholics can never seem to answer:

If Peter’s divine authority as head of the church was understood from day 1, then why did bishops outside of the Roman Empire have absolutely no awareness of this?

The bishops in the Assyrian Empire learned about the Council of Nicea in 410. They only decided to accept it after holding a council of their own and determining that Nicea is correct and worthy of acceptance because its teachings “agree with the faith handed down from their fathers.” There’s absolutely no mention of Rome or “obeying the council because Rome says so.”

When papal legates reached India in the 16th century, the Indian bishops, who had been there since the second century, had no awareness of a papacy or supreme bishop of any sort whatsoever. The papal legates used violence to make some of the Indian church submit, but not all did.

How is it that the Assyrian and Indian churches maintain everything else correctly (the sacraments, apostolic succession, etc) but not what should be “universal knowledge” according to Roman Catholics? If Christ truly ha established the office of the papacy, and if the apostles and earliest Christians were aware of it (including the first missionaries to India), then how can the Indians magically forget this one key fact?

This is one reason why the Roman Catholic belief in a papacy is absurd to me.
Let me answer that one as an Eastern Catholic of the Syriac Tradition in India – the issue would have never come up if the Portuguese hadn’t been in India. The Church in India, even if in Communion with Rome, would have been under the direct care of the Catholicos-Patriarch of Seleucia-Ctesiphon (around Mosul/Baghdad today) head of the Church of the East or Chaldean Catholic Church of today. In those days, only the bishop and Patriarch of one’s church would have been commemorated not other Patriarchs, so most people would be unaware of the distinction. Due to the Portuguese arrival and the direct forced estrangement from the Chaldean/Assyrian Church to the Latin Rite, this became a prominent matter. Even this would have gone unnoticed, if the Liturgy was left alone by the Portuguese bishops.

Another issue to consider - and I’ll be the first to call Rome or Latins out for interfering in Eastern matters - however, without the Reesh (Syriac word meaning head) Patriarch’s authority, there are numerous unresolved schism and disputes within Eastern Churches that simply cannot be resolved. Some are due to personal disagreements, others more substantive. However, someone has to make a final call when bishops disagree, otherwise this goes on and on – India is a perfect example, as is the Assyrian Church, or even Ukraine.
 
Here_For_Donuts;13338476]This Roman Catholic view of history is completely anachronistic.
I have one question that Catholics can never seem to answer:
If Peter’s divine authority as head of the church was understood from day 1, then why did bishops outside of the Roman Empire have absolutely no awareness of this?
Your question lapse 400 years of persecution, the life span of those Church’s evangelized outside of the Roman Empire by disciples of the apostles, and when first contact was made second coming of Christ was preached in the present tense. Besides so far from home, these disciples by authority given to them by the apostles would of never questioned their Church authority, especially Peter’s authority is never questioned while the Church remained in her infancy outside the presence of the apostles.

Good news is Peter still lives and can visit them in the present tense to bring to them revelation of what time has neglected to give to them from the beginning. The logos still lives and His revelation has not changed since these Church’s were first evangelized.
 
Now you’re changing the argument. The first argument was about succession - my retort was that Antioch and Alexandria have true succession which you now agree with. Rome’s primacy is not in dispute by me, as I’m Catholic - however, the Orthodox have claimed that the primacy is no longer due to heresy/schism by Rome.
I am not changing the argument, I am but clarifying my position, since it seemed you weren’t quite getting what I was saying, I had to add to my original commentary. I hope now we understand each other.
I don’t need proof, however, quoting a pro-Roman stance of a Roman Pope doesn’t prove that much - since the argument is that Rome has in deed made the claim however it wasn’t necessarily agreed upon by everyone else.
The same can be said for those who disagree with Rome, moreover, if it was only Roman popes that claimed such a thing I might be a little concerned, but it isn’t, and scripture, furthermore, upholds this view (PETER = leader of the universal church).

p.s. And it should mean something that all Roman popes believed they held the primacy because they were the holders of Peter’s office.
 
Regarding schism, why do some Catholics completely distort Photius and make him out to be an evil man?

newadvent.org/cathen/12043b.htm

The very first thing the article starts with is debunked legends about Photius (probably to imprint negative thoughts in the reader’s mind), then coyly adds that these stories shouldn’t be believed. After this, the article completely disorts events, making it seem as if Rome was innocent and Photius was a no-good rascal.
So if you think this, then, it is obvious you lean towards Orthodoxy and have no further reason to debate us.
 
The Catholic Church seems to misunderstand when Jesus said, “the gates of hell shall not prevail” against the church.

They interpret the analogy as if hell is attacking and the church is defending. But do “city gates” attack? Don’t they defend whatever is behind them?

So Jesus wasn’t talking about the church being on the defense against false doctrine (aka an “infallible papacy”). He was talking about hell being unable to withstand the attacks of he church!
Yes, city gates do defend from the invading forces of evil that attempt to attack, i.e., they act as a barrier.

p.s. That would explain why castles had high walls, and a portcullis.
 
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