The Catholic version?

[da_nolo]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushido
Bushido was the samurai version of chivalry and dedication (to discipline). Is there or was there a “western” version which is or was common among Catholics?

Are there any Latin words to describe similar mentality?

 

[EphelDuath]

Chivalry and bushido were both post-facto inventions; knights in the middle ages did not have a “code of chivalry”, and neither did samurai obey the principles of bushido. Those were invented by Renaissance authors and imperial Japanese historians, respectively; the former as a way to poke fun at those dumb folks that lived prior to their time (not something unknown to today’s people ), and the latter as a way to glorify and imperial-ize their heritage.

That being said. There were some commonly accepted ideas about what a Christian soldier should be, in the middle ages. There’s this very interesting document called the Heliand, which was an old Saxon translation/abbreviation of the Gospels – but because the language was so primitive, Jesus is the “great chieftain” and the apostles are the “king’s warchiefs”, all military language. A lot of the material is simply fabricated by the translator, but this gives us some ideas of what the ideal soldier was in Charlemagne’s time: strong and cunning, but most of all obedient to one’s liege and God. But not so much about being honorable, courting princesses, or any of that stuff.

 

[St_Francis]

Chivalry and bushido were both post-facto inventions; knights in the middle ages did not have a “code of chivalry”, and neither did samurai obey the principles of bushido. Those were invented by Renaissance authors and imperial Japanese historians, respectively; the former as a way to poke fun at those dumb folks that lived prior to their time (not something unknown to today’s people ), and the latter as a way to glorify and imperial-ize their heritage.

Why would you say this? In the 1300s manuscript of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, Sir Gawain is described as having a picture of Our Lady *inside *his shield, as well as other Christian symbols. Other sources also provide evidence of a knightly code of honor stemming from the Christian permeation of society.

That being said. There were some commonly accepted ideas about what a Christian soldier should be, in the middle ages. There’s this very interesting document called the Heliand, which was an old Saxon translation/abbreviation of the Gospels – but because the language was so primitive, Jesus is the “great chieftain” and the apostles are the “king’s warchiefs”, all military language. A lot of the material is simply fabricated by the translator, but this gives us some ideas of what the ideal soldier was in Charlemagne’s time: strong and cunning, but most of all obedient to one’s liege and God. But not so much about being honorable, courting princesses, or any of that stuff.

The Song of Roland, the Life of St Gerald by St Odo, as well as the fasting and special Mass for those being knighted show the importance of the Faith to knightly chivalry. Of course, there is a certain amount of what could be called natural knightly nobility so the fact that this fit in so well woth Catholicism is no surprise.

 

[da_nolo]

Chivalry and bushido were both post-facto inventions; knights in the middle ages did not have a “code of chivalry”, and neither did samurai obey the principles of bushido. Those were invented by Renaissance authors and imperial Japanese historians, respectively; the former as a way to poke fun at those dumb folks that lived prior to their time (not something unknown to today’s people ), and the latter as a way to glorify and imperial-ize their heritage.

Book of Five Rings, Miyamoto Musashi. This man was a swordsman, not a renaissance author and in no way, imperial historian.
samurai-archives.com/musashi.html
In his book, Musashi mentions Bushido. It existed and was not some made up thing.

britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/86168/Bushido

History does not support your position, or at least what recordings I could find under 30 seconds online. I own the book of Five Rings.

I don’t qualify myself as an expert in any way, but if you want to mention historical fact, it’s best that you back it up.

Bushido is not Chivalry, but a disciplined way of life - or so from my studies. Chivalry has always been a particular set of characteristics or behaviors one should have when conducting oneself, but this did not include disciplines such as art, swordsmanship, etc. there are differences, and that is why I added “dedication (to discipline).” It was the best way I could explain it in a short sentence. If anyone wanted to read further, a link was provided.

That being said. There were some commonly accepted ideas about what a Christian soldier should be, in the middle ages. There’s this very interesting document called the Heliand, which was an old Saxon translation/abbreviation of the Gospels – but because the language was so primitive, Jesus is the “great chieftain” and the apostles are the “king’s warchiefs”, all military language. A lot of the material is simply fabricated by the translator, but this gives us some ideas of what the ideal soldier was in Charlemagne’s time: strong and cunning, but most of all obedient to one’s liege and God. But not so much about being honorable, courting princesses, or any of that stuff.

Charlemagne was king of the Franks, was he not? that is not the same area, nor culture as the saxons. So a substance of text translated into another language and culture is only going to be expected to be adequate (like the original) if done by the proper people. Otherwise, there will be differences.

The saxon perspective may be interesting, but for now I am not interested in historical significance. Instead I wish to pursuit any and all disciplines or life systems similar to Bushido that may have existed in Western society with a Catholic vision/focus. Timeline? I don’t care so much as to when this may have been.

 

[George_Stegmeir]

Why would you say this? In the 1300s manuscript of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, Sir Gawain is described as having a picture of Our Lady *inside *his shield, as well as other Christian symbols. Other sources also provide evidence of a knightly code of honor stemming from the Christian permeation of society.

The Song of Roland, the Life of St Gerald by St Odo, as well as the fasting and special Mass for those being knighted show the importance of the Faith to knightly chivalry. Of course, there is a certain amount of what could be called natural knightly nobility so the fact that this fit in so well woth Catholicism is no surprise.

All of this is pure fiction. The reality of warfare by todays standards was brutal beyond description. There was little nobility amongst the warriors of the Elite classes. They thought they were so priviledged they could commit any atrocity whey wished without any commupance. The best example was the Fourth Crusade, for which the Arab peoples have not forgiven Western People (Christians) to this day. These chivalrous types sacked Constanople with great slaughter, and nearly erased the existant Jews from Jerusalem.
Chivalry existed mainly in literature, not as a fact in the society of that time…in fact, it came to be only after the fact.
You can consider the end of this era with the Battle of Agincourt, in which English archers slew an army of French noblemen in armor from a great distance. The French, of course screamed bloody murder because their knights were slain by commoners- something unthinkable for the times! A lot of good it did them!

 

[EphelDuath]

Why would you say this? In the 1300s manuscript of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, Sir Gawain is described as having a picture of Our Lady *inside *his shield, as well as other Christian symbols. Other sources also provide evidence of a knightly code of honor stemming from the Christian permeation of society.

There was never a knightly code of honor. That’s a figment of the imagination of Renaissance authors like Erasmus.

So Sir Gawain was a good Christian. That says nothing about chivalry. Chivalry was actually in many ways counter-cultural to Christianity, since it specifically enshrined adultery with young noble maidens married to old humbugs. The Catholic Church never had any sort of regulations or commendations about fighting honorably; the emphasis in warfare was always on obedience and the Commandments.

Book of Five Rings, Miyamoto Musashi. This man was a swordsman, not a renaissance author and in no way, imperial historian.
samurai-archives.com/musashi.html
In his book, Musashi mentions Bushido. It existed and was not some made up thing.

britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/86168/Bushido

The word “bushido” was not invented by imperial Japanese historians. The idea of it was, though, of a proto-nationalistic extremely honorable samurai class that existed during and before the Shogunate.

I don’t qualify myself as an expert in any way, but if you want to mention historical fact, it’s best that you back it up.

If you’ll forgive me for quoting Wikipedia, since I don’t have my library on hand:

Recent scholarship in both Japan and abroad has focused on differences between the samurai class and the bushidō theories that developed in modern Japan. Bushidō in the prewar period was often emperor-centered and placed much greater value on the virtues of loyalty and self-sacrifice than did many Tokugawa-era interpretations.[10] Bushidō was used as a propaganda tool by the government and military, who doctored it to suit their needs.[11] Scholars of Japanese history agree that the bushidō that spread throughout modern Japan was not simply a continuation of earlier traditions.

Charlemagne was king of the Franks, was he not? that is not the same area, nor culture as the saxons. So a substance of text translated into another language and culture is only going to be expected to be adequate (like the original) if done by the proper people. Otherwise, there will be differences.

Perhaps you should read into the nature of the Heliand? It’s not a Saxon document. It was created in the court of Louis the Pious, Charlemagne’s son, as a Latin-into-old-Saxon translation for the Frankish missionaries into Saxony. So the perspective you’re getting is what the Gallican Church wanted the Saxons to believe was Godly in warfare. It’s the best, and one of the only, sources into what “chivalry” really was as an idea before it was manipulated by post-medieval authors imposing what THEIR ideas were of knigthood onto the past.

Instead I wish to pursuit any and all disciplines or life systems similar to Bushido that may have existed in Western society with a Catholic vision/focus. Timeline? I don’t care so much as to when this may have been.

That kind of idea really only existed starting with the Renaissance, when poets and historians heavily romanticized ancient Rome, as well as a handful of medieval figures that they thought fell into the mold of imperial Roman virtue. So I would start with “Handbook of a Christian Knight” by Erasmus (16th century), “Le Morte d’Arthur” by Mallory (15th century), and “Ivanhoe” by Sir Walter Scott (19th century).