The Catholic Vs. The Orthodox Church: Which is the True Church?

[firstmode]

Roman Catholics and Eastern Greek Orthodox churches accuse the other of false doctrines both base upon tradition:

1. The Catholics reject several of the specific canons of the early ecumenical councils, but the orthodox accept them as inspired.
2. Catholics and Orthodox disagree on the dates of Christmas and Easter. While the Orthodox church claims council at Nice was inspired, yet is rejects the canons of Nicea on the date of Easter which the Catholics accept.
3. The Catholics teach purgatory, yet the Orthodox reject it.
4. Universal papal jurisdiction was a rather large dogfight in 588-606 AD.
5. Although the Orthodox reject Papal infallibility, the decisions of the orthodox synods are considered infallible.
6. The Immaculate Conception is utterly rejected by the Orthodox.
7. The orthodox baptized by full immersion (thrice), the Catholics sprinkle.
8. Orthodox Church, priests can marry, but Catholics priests cannot.
9. The Roman Catholic church introduced instrumental music no earlier than the 7th century and the Orthodox church has never used instrumental music, but like the apostles, sang without instrument.
10. In Catholic communion, the cup is withheld from the members, while the Orthodox float the “crouton looking” bread cubes in the wine. Catholics believe the bread and wine (transubstantiation) become the literal body of Christ when the priest says, “this is my body”. The Orthodox disagrees and says the change takes place at prayer. Catholics use unleavened bread, while Orthodox use leavened bread. Orthodox must keep a ridged schedule of fasts in order to have communion every week, but the most common practice is a minimum of four times a year during the four Orthodox Lents "Christmas, Easter, Peter and Paul, The virgin Mary. Catholics on the other hand, need not eat the hour before, to have communion every day. In the end, Orthodox offer communion weekly and Catholics daily. In practice most Orthodox laity have communion four times year and Catholics weekly. So which of these two traditions is the one the apostles used? All this proves that they have no valid “apostolic tradition”, otherwise they would all agree! They differ on the frequency of communion, the fasting requirements and the actual method of partaking.
11. Transubstantiation is a false doctrine that says the bread and grape juice of the Lord’s supper actually molecularly change to become the flesh and blood of Jesus. Of course this old doctrine was formulated before the advent of molecular microscopes which see no change. For Catholics the “Transubstantiation” occurs when the priest says the words, “this is my body”. For Orthodox the change occurs when the priest offers the prayer of thanks.
12. The “Filioque” scandal: Following the Nicene creed, the Orthodox Church believed the Holy Spirit proceeded from the Father alone. Then in 1054 AD the Roman church added to the wording of the Nicene creed “And the Son” or the “Filioque.” The Roman church believed the Holy Spirit proceeded from BOTH the Father and the Son.
13. Orthodox keeps the original Nicene Creed, accepted by the Universal Church, East and West, during the first millennium without the addition of “And the Son” or the “Filioque.” It accepts, on faith, Christ’s words in the Gospel, that the Father is the Unoriginate Source of the Life of the Trinity, with the Only-Begotten Son and the Holy Spirit Proceeding from the Father Alone. We cannot know how the Begetting of the Son and the Proceeding of the Spirit from the same Father is different, only that it is and this distinguishes the two Persons.

370 AD: Basil’s approach: Forget Tradition Wars: Let Scripture Decide!

A. Basil wrote in 370 AD:
"What then? After all these efforts were they tired? Did they leave off? Not at all. They are charging me with innovation, and base their charge on my confession of three hypostases, and blame me for asserting one Goodness, one Power, one Godhead. In this they are not wide of the truth, for I do so assert. Their complaint is that their custom does not accept this, and that Scripture does not agree. What is my reply? I do not consider it fair that the custom which obtains among them should be regarded as a law and rule of orthodoxy. If custom is to be taken in proof of what is right, then it is certainly competent for me to put forward on my side the custom which obtains here. If they reject this, we are clearly not bound to follow them. Therefore let God-inspired Scripture decide between us; and on whichever side be found doctrines in harmony with the word of God, in favour of that side will be cast the vote of truth." (Basil, Letter 189, 3)

 

[firstmode]

Orthodox leaders accuse the Roman Catholics of heresy!

A. Clark Carlton, Orthodox defender, wrote this about Catholic doctrine:
"In defending sola Scriptura, Protestant apologists invariably use Roman Catholic theology as a foil. It is asserted that Roman Catholics accept two sources of authority-Scripture and tradition-and that tradition is given equal weight with Scripture. Second, it is asserted that Roman Catholic reliance on tradition has resulted in the modern doctrines of the Immaculate Conception and papal infallibility. From these premises, Protestants conclude that sola Scriptura is the only safeguard against aberrant doctrinal developments. First of all, the doctrinal aberrations of the Roman Catholic Church are manifestly not part of the universal tradition of the Church. The Orthodox Church opposes the Roman doctrines of universal papal jurisdiction, papal infallibility, purgatory, and the Immaculate Conception precisely because they are untraditional. Furthermore, the Orthodox Church has never accepted the Roman Catholic assertion that there are two sources of authority. The Church recognizes one and only one source of authority for Her faith and practice: the apostolic tradition. The Divine Scriptures are part-albeit the most important part-of that tradition. To set Scriptures up as something over and apart from tradition is to have the tail wagging the dog. (THE WAY: What Every Protestant Should Know About the Orthodox Church, Clark Carlton, 1997, p 135)

 

[firstmode]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...terior.jpg/800px-Orthodox-Church-interior.jpg



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...x_Church.jpg/409px-Inside_Orthodox_Church.jpg

 

[firstmode]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/ee/Svetitskhoveli1.jpg/800px-Svetitskhoveli1.jpg

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Nice photos! Why didn’t you identify them?

 

[firstmode]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/09BIdUO9YMbaP/340x.jpg

 

[firstmode]

I am sorry I did not identify the photos!!

I got them off of Wikipedia though. I think the photos are beautiful!

 

[victus]

Roman Catholics and Eastern Greek Orthodox churches accuse the other of false doctrines both base upon tradition:

1. The Catholics reject several of the specific canons of the early ecumenical councils, but the orthodox accept them as inspired.

The Catholic Church does not reject any of the Canons of the Early Church Ecumenical Councils…where did you hear this?

1. Catholics and Orthodox disagree on the dates of Christmas and Easter. While the Orthodox church claims council at Nice was inspired, yet is rejects the canons of Nicea on the date of Easter which the Catholics accept.

This is not true either…this difference is because the Catholic Church re-modified the Calander and the Orthodox follow the old Julian Calendar.

1. The Catholics teach purgatory, yet the Orthodox reject it.

But the Orthodox do not doubt that praying for the Dead is beneficial to the dead. In fact they offer the Divine Liturgy for the Dead. Just like we Catholics offer Mass for the Dead.

1. Universal papal jurisdiction was a rather large dogfight in 588-606 AD.

Have to look this one up to see the historical time period.

1. Although the Orthodox reject Papal infallibility, the decisions of the orthodox synods are considered infallible.

Both Churches believe that synods are infallible.

1. The Immaculate Conception is utterly rejected by the Orthodox.

Too understand this is too understand that the Orthodox Church does not believe in the stain in Original Sin being passed on to us from Adam and Eve. The Orthodox Church does in fact call Mary the All-Holy…why?..because they too like us Catholics believe she never commited any sin.

1. The orthodox baptized by full immersion (thrice), the Catholics sprinkle.

Both Churches believe both are valid baptisms

1. Orthodox Church, priests can marry, but Catholics priests cannot.

Matter of discipline,… but remember both have married priests and both have to be married before ordination.

1. The Roman Catholic church introduced instrumental music no earlier than the 7th century and the Orthodox church has never used instrumental music, but like the apostles, sang without instrument.

Liturgies were adapting to local custom East and West.

1. In Catholic communion, the cup is withheld from the members, while the Orthodox float the “crouton looking” bread cubes in the wine. Catholics believe the bread and wine (transubstantiation) become the literal body of Christ when the priest says, “this is my body”. The Orthodox disagrees and says the change takes place at prayer. Catholics use unleavened bread, while Orthodox use leavened bread. Orthodox must keep a ridged schedule of fasts in order to have communion every week, but the most common practice is a minimum of four times a year during the four Orthodox Lents "Christmas, Easter, Peter and Paul, The virgin Mary. Catholics on the other hand, need not eat the hour before, to have communion every day. In the end, Orthodox offer communion weekly and Catholics daily. In practice most Orthodox laity have communion four times year and Catholics weekly. So which of these two traditions is the one the apostles used? All this proves that they have no valid “apostolic tradition”, otherwise they would all agree! They differ on the frequency of communion, the fasting requirements and the actual method of partaking.

Wow…this is alot. But all I will say is that Apostolic Tradtion does not change and it does not refer to disciplines of the Church. All of these are discipline matters that the Church during fixed periods can deem it necessary to change.

1. Transubstantiation is a false doctrine that says the bread and grape juice of the Lord’s supper actually molecularly change to become the flesh and blood of Jesus. Of course this old doctrine was formulated before the advent of molecular microscopes which see no change. For Catholics the “Transubstantiation” occurs when the priest says the words, “this is my body”. For Orthodox the change occurs when the priest offers the prayer of thanks.

First of all we don’t use grape juice…but we use what Christ used at the Last Supper…wine. Orthodox Church does not want to put a time in the Liturgy when the gifts become the actual Body and Blood of Christ. For they want it to remain a mystery…but just remember this during the words of institution(“this is my Body”) the Orthodox Church in the Liturgy shows deep reverence at this point in the liturgy.

 

[victus]

1. The “Filioque” scandal: Following the Nicene creed, the Orthodox Church believed the Holy Spirit proceeded from the Father alone. Then in 1054 AD the Roman church added to the wording of the Nicene creed “And the Son” or the “Filioque.” The Roman church believed the Holy Spirit proceeded from BOTH the Father and the Son.

The Catholic Church added to the creed well before that time…I believe it was in the Local Council of Toledo in the Seventh Century. This was added for claification to the creed.

1. Orthodox keeps the original Nicene Creed, accepted by the Universal Church, East and West, during the first millennium without the addition of “And the Son” or the “Filioque.” It accepts, on faith, Christ’s words in the Gospel, that the Father is the Unoriginate Source of the Life of the Trinity, with the Only-Begotten Son and the Holy Spirit Proceeding from the Father Alone. We cannot know how the Begetting of the Son and the Proceeding of the Spirit from the same Father is different, only that it is and this distinguishes the two Persons.

This is a matter of Theology between the relationship of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If the Father gave the Son all his possesions then would not the Holy Spirit proceed from the Son?

 

[firstmode]

Thanks for the replies!

I am sorry about the statement about the transubstantiation.

I was not trying to post something controversial, it was list I picked up from a theology web site that I thought was interested and sparked interest in me to make a thread here.

I am a protestant Assemblies of God, but I was raised Catholic and baptized as an infant in the Catholic church. I am always on a journey to learn more about Christianity and have spent much time studying church history and the early church fathers.

I find Orthodoxy and Catholicism fascinating. I am a believer of one universal (catholic) church of a body of believers where Christ is the head. I know this is not what Orthodoxy or Catholocism agree with, but I consider all of you guys brothers and sisters in Christ with me. I also feel that we are all going to have a great time in heaven together fellow shipping with the Lord.

I hope that you Orthodox/Catholic Christ followers out there know that there are LOTS of Protestants that love you guys and see you guys as our brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

The Catholic Church added to the creed well before that time…I believe it was in the Local Council of Toledo in the Seventh Century. This was added for claification to the creed.

This is a matter of Theology between the relationship of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If the Father gave the Son all his possesions then would not the Holy Spirit proceed from the Son?

Another wording that satisfies many both Orthodox and Catholic believers is “proceeds from the Father through the Son.”

 

[Hesychios]

Another wording that satisfies many both Orthodox and Catholic believers is “proceeds from the Father through the Son.”

This is a position I would take. Perhaps not all Orthodox would agree right away but I think it would dampen the fires considerably.

However it cannot be merely a scholarly “interpretation” of the words now used. The interpolation must actually say this and be recited in this way before I would think it ok. The Monarchy of the Father must be preserved.

It’s an easy fix.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

There are many errors in each of your questions, but do to the volume, I’m only responding to a few.

1. Catholics and Orthodox disagree on the dates of Christmas.

Catholics and ALL Orthodox Jurisdictions celebrate the Nativity of Christ on December 25th - this falls the same time every year for Catholic and about 1/2 of the Orthodox Churches which matches the calendar we all use Catholic and Non-Catholic alike the Gregorian Calendar created and established by Pope Gregory the Great aka the Catholic Calendar. The other 50% of Orthodox Churches use the Julian Calendar which was established by the Roman Emperor Julian before Christ was born…on the Julian Calendar December 25th falls on our Catholic Calendar, used by the entire world including secular folks, on January 7th.
The difference is not the Date of Christmas, but which Calendar 1/2 of the Orthodox Churches use.

1. The Immaculate Conception is utterly rejected by the Orthodox.

This is wrong, both the Catholic Church and all Orthodox Churches believe and teach that Mary was completely without sin her entire existence. Both Churches refer to her with titles “All-Holy”, “Most Holy” “Immaculate” in their liturgies.

The difference her is that Orthodox falsely accuse Catholics of believing that Original Sin past down to every human being causes that individuals to be guilty of the sin of Adam and Eve, but reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraph 405 one can clearly see that this is not the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Both Catholic and Orthodox believe that Mary was and is completely without sin.

1. The orthodox baptized by full immersion (thrice), the Catholics sprinkle.

Catholics don’t “sprinkle”, the water is poured.

Read the Didache “Teaching of the Twelve Apostles” from the first century on, both forms of baptism have been accepted…the preference being full immersion in running waters, but by immersion in non-running waters was valid and by pouring was also valid.

1. Orthodox Church, priests can marry, but Catholics priests cannot.

Neither in the Orthodox Church nor the Catholic Church can a priest marry! This is so wrong. Both in the Orthodox Church and in the Catholic Church married men can be ordained to the priesthood, but if their spouse dies, they may NOT remarry. In the Roman Catholic Rite, this is less often practiced as it is in the other Catholic Rites, but it is still permissible and there are married Roman Catholic Priests even here in the United States.

1. In Catholic communion, the cup is withheld from the members,

This is wrong. The cup is not withheld from members. If the Church can afford for the entire parish to receive, they are given Communion in both forms; however, it has always been taught and believed that Jesus is fully present in the Host as well as in the Cup, so if only the Cup or only the Host is given, the recepient has not missed out in any way.

Catholics use unleavened bread, while Orthodox use leavened bread.

The Catholic Church uses both unleavened bread and leavened bread for Holy Eucharist, each Catholic Rite has their own traditions, so traditionally, you will find the Roman Rite uses unleavened bread and the Byzantine Rite uses leavened bread - just as an example as their are multiple other Rites of the Catholic Church.

1. Transubstantiation is a false doctrine that says the bread and grape juice of the Lord’s supper actually molecularly change to become the flesh and blood of Jesus.

First of all, neither the Catholic nor Orthodox Churches use grape juice…that is in innovation soley used by Protestant Churches.

The Bible is clear that the elements to be used for Holy Communion are Bread and WINE. Transubstantiation is a word created to explain the Mystery which was revealed to us by Christ and clearly written about in the Bible - read John 6 and all 4 of the accounts of the Last Supper and read St. Paul’s writing to the Corinithians re: the elements becoming the actual Body and Blood of Our Lord.

I hope that you open your heart and your mind to the Truth which is Jesus Christ by humbling yourself before Him realizing that there is much you do not know or understand and search for Him from a pure heart and you will find Him in the Catholic Church, the Church He died to create for your personal salvation.

 

[firstmode]

Thanks for the replies, I really appreciate you clearing up some of those points.

 

[panoikei]

Now that you have a general understanding you might want to isolate these questions and deal with them further one at a time.
The Orhtodox Church recognizes the Didache just as Catholics do. The didache offers acceptance of baptisms other than submersion. Another difference is that Orhtodox confirm, or rather receive the sacrament of Christmation at the same time baptism and first communion. THere has been talke I hear of restoring this but I doubt that would actually happen. My son was confirmed at the age of 12. That’s because I left the Church for the Church of Christ. But after a long journey coming to realize that every church has a magisterium and traditions. Well, there may be a whole lot of sinners in the Catholic Church, but the teachings have always remained the same. Tradition will not or cannot change and will not or cannot contradict scripture. When it seems like it does contradict there is an interpretation problem on the part of the individual or group that is interpreting. There have been heresies from the very beginning of the Church. After studying Orhtodoxy on my way to reverting back to Catholicism I’ve discovered ancient church father writings that nullified my concerns over papal primacy, infalibility and the Immaculate Conception. It is reasonable to believe. But they are mysteries to us. Most of the historical conflcts are based on cultural and political differences from my studies. I continue to study.

Please also be aware that there are Orhtodox in communion with Rome. We refer to them as Eastern Catholics. That is where I would like to transfer. I would love to become a deacon and if the Lord is willing a priest. about 90% of Eastern Catholics priests are married. But in both East and West Churches the ordained man can not be married afterwards. I know of no exceptions. But it is a matter of discipline, not dogma.

Good luck on your journey.

PAX tecum.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

The Catholic Vs. The Orthodox Church: Which is the True Church?

firsmode,

As and Assembly of God goer, which do you believe is the true church?

God bless

 

[Hesychios]

Hello panoikei,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

…Please also be aware that there are Orhtodox in communion with Rome. We refer to them as Eastern Catholics…

I had at one time thought so.

Then I tried hard to believe it. There are certainly individuals among them who try hard to make it so. I commend them for that.

If five years taught me anything, it is that “Orthodox in Communion with Rome” is a myth.

 

[firstmode]

The Catholic Vs. The Orthodox Church: Which is the True Church?

firsmode,

As and Assembly of God goer, which do you believe is the true church?

God bless

The Church at Large — the Body of Christ
What does the Assemblies of God believe about the entire Christian church world (all born-again believers in our world) being part of the body of Christ? Is it possible for so many denominations and church groups to hold such differing theologies and lifestyles and yet be of one faith or universal Body?

The New Testament is clear in its teaching that there is only one Church, which is described as the body of Christ (Eph. 1:22,23; 2:16; 4:4; Col. 1:13-21; Rom. 12:4,5; 1 Cor. 12:12-20). That one Church includes all who have accepted Jesus Christ as Savior and are serving Him as the Lord of their lives. It is also clear that Jesus’ desire for the Church is that all believers be one, even as He and the Father are one (John 17:11). The unity for which Jesus prayed comes obviously from His redemptive work on the cross (Eph. 2:16). It is a spiritual unity rather than an institutional unity.

The New Testament testifies to a spiritual unity that bothalready isand yet is to be pursued. Paul exhorts us to be “diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace (Eph. 4:3, NASB). Despite denominational labels or distinctives, all true believers in Christ are one in Him. Yet unity must be cultivated and promoted within the Church at large and within local congregations.

The same passages that declare the unity of the body of Christ also speak of the great diversity in God’s creation (Rom. 12:5; 1 Cor. 12:14-21; Eph. 4:4-7). So it should not surprise us if the Church contains groups that differ in theological interpretations and lifestyles. The Assemblies of God has always held that the divine inspiration of Scripture makes it the final judge in deciding matters of faith and practice (2 Tim. 3:16). While we may disagree with the interpretation of Scripture by other Christian groups on a variety of issues, we must heed Paul’s advice that we are not “to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls” (Rom. 14:4, NKJV). At the same time, we must not surrender our own convictions, remembering that “each of us will give an account of himself to God” (Rom. 14:12).

CONCERNS:

Unity in the body of Christ does not require accepting the beliefs and practices of any group that offers membership to enhance cooperation on social and legislative matters. The Assemblies of God has historically been cautious in making alliances with church groups that do not hold the same biblical priorities, but rather emphasize social concerns over the importance of changing lives through a genuine salvation experience. The church cooperates with groups when our distinctives are not compromised. For example, the Assemblies of God is a cooperating member of the National Association of Evangelicals, the Pentecostal and Charismatic Churches of North America, and the Pentecostal World Fellowship. But it is not a member of the World Council of Churches or the National Council of Churches.

The above statement is based upon our common understanding of scriptural teaching and in the Assemblies of God Bylaws, Article IX, B, Section 11.

 

[firstmode]

The Catholic Vs. The Orthodox Church: Which is the True Church?

firsmode,

As and Assembly of God goer, which do you believe is the true church?

God bless

1. The Church and its Mission

The Church is the Body of Christ, the habitation of God through the Spirit, with divine appointments for the fulfillment of her great commission. Each believer, born of the Spirit, is an integral part of the General Assembly and Church of the Firstborn, which are written in heaven.

* Ephesians 1:22,23 [KJV/NIV]
* Ephesians 2:22 [KJV/NIV]
* Hebrews 12:23 [KJV/NIV]

Since God’s purpose concerning man is to seek and to save that which is lost, to be worshipped by man, and to build a body of believers in the image of His Son, the priority reason for being of the Assemblies of God as part of the Church is:

  To be an agency of God for evangelizing the world.
    Acts 1:8 [KJV/NIV]
    Matthew 28:19,20 [KJV/NIV]
    Mark 16:15,16 [KJV/NIV]

  To be a corporate body in which man may worship God.
     1 Corinthians 12:13 [KJV/NIV]

  To be a channel of God's purpose to build a body of saints being perfected in the image of His Son.
     Ephesians 4:11-16 [KJV/NIV]
     1 Corinthians 12:28 [KJV/NIV]
     1 Corinthians 14:12 [KJV/NIV]

The Assemblies of God exists expressly to give continuing emphasis to this reason for being in the New Testament apostolic pattern by teaching and encouraging believers to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. This experience:

  Enables them to evangelize in the power of the Spirit with accompanying supernatural signs.
     Mark 16:15-20 [KJV/NIV]
    Acts 4:29-31 [KJV/NIV]
    Hebrews 2:3,4 [KJV/NIV]

  Adds a necessary dimension to worshipful relationship with God.
    1 Corinthians 2:10-16 [KJV/NIV]
    1 Corinthians 12 [KJV/NIV]
    1 Corinthians 13 [KJV/NIV]
    1 Corinthians 14 [KJV/NIV]

  Enables them to respond to the full working of the Holy Spirit in expression of fruit and gifts and ministries as in New Testament times for the edifying of the body of Christ.
    Galatians 5:22-26 [KJV/NIV]
    1 Corinthians 14:12 [KJV/NIV]
    Ephesians 4:11,12 [KJV/NIV]
    1 Corinthians 12:28 [KJV/NIV]
    Colossians 1:29 [KJV/NIV]

 

[SSTeacher]

If five years taught me anything, it is that “Orthodox in Communion with Rome” is a myth.

Hesychios,

I’ve been wondering what the phrase, “Orthodox in Communion with Rome” actually means in practice (if anything). Would you care to enlarge?

Hopefully,
Mick