The Catholic Vs. The Orthodox Church: Which is the True Church?

[mardukm]

**Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter’s confession. What is Peter’s confession? ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ There’s the rock for you, there’s the foundation, there’s where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer. (*Sermon ***229).
Blessed Augutine

Yes. We all know that. the Church is not built on a man. It is built on the promise of Christ, which is what “Peter” represents to the Catholic.

Further, in his Retractations, St. Augustine admits that in his writings, he referred to the Rock, as Peter, Jesus, or Peter’s Confession, and exhorts the reader to choose the interpretation he prefers. The Catholic Church has always understood that the three are intimately connected. But to interpret one to the exclusion of the others, as many non-Catholic polemicists do, is an error.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Mickey]

Yes. We all know that. the Church is not built on a man.

Thank you. And we also know that the consesus of Church Father’s viewed the “Rock” as St Peter’s confession. I have many quotes, but then we have already been down that road.

Many non-Orthodox polemicists attempt to use that single verse as the proof for the supreme infallible pontiff as he exists today.

Thankfully we also have these verses:

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1 Cor 10:4
And all drank the same spiritual drink; (and they drank of the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.)

Eph 2:19-20
Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners; but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and the domestics of God, Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone:

**(Rev. 21:14) **
“….and the wall of the city with its twelve foundations, upon which were inscribed the twelve names of the twelve Apostles of the Lamb…”

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1 Peter 2:6-8
Wherefore it is said in the scripture: Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious. And he that shall believe in him, shall not be confounded. **To you therefore that believe, he is honour: but to them that believe not, the stone which the builders rejected, the same is made the head of the corner: And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of scandal, to them who stumble at the word, neither do believe, whereunto also they are set. ******

If you and I confess Jesus Christ to be the Messiah, the Son of the Living God, we too are St Peter–adding to the foundation.

 

[Mickey]

and the confession was not about the faith of St Peter.

Yes, it was. It is never about the man. It is always about grace and faith and love.

 

[Mickey]

therefore the authority given to St Pete could not have been based on his faith.

Are you kidding me?

 

[Mickey]

The Dogma of Purgatory as is, definitely.

The IC, with explanation, most likely.

Papal infallibility as an expression of the infallibility of the Church, not the separate, personal infallibility that non-Catholic polemicists pretend that it is, even more likely.

Uh…er…hmmmm.

 

[mardukm]

If you and I confess Jesus Christ to be the Messiah, the Son of the Living God, we too are St Peter–adding to the foundation.

Amen! No Catholic has a problem with that (if you did when you were a Catholic, then you were not being a very good Catholic ) We are all living stones as Scripture states, sharing in the rockiness of Christ.

Now, if you can show me where Jesus Himself changed the name of a man to reflect His own Rockiness, then we’ll be good.

And if you can show me where in the Bible anyone else is given the special responsibility and Grace (prayer of Christ) of being the confirmer of the brethren, then we can live happily ever after. Otherwise, the non-Catholic claims that there is not this particular and unique office instituted by Christ Himself for the edification of His Church falls flat on its face.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mercygate]

Thanks for the replies, I really appreciate you clearing up some of those points.

I really dislike the “versus” frame of mind in discussing Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Both lines of the Church trace back to Christ.

We have our differences, but, theologically, the Eastern Churches under the Pope have managed to create harmony. If you were to erase the influences of politics and jealousy I believe Rome and the East could sit down together and erase the difficulties in a week.

 

[Mickey]

why not?

Are you familiar with his sophiology? Be careful who you use to attempt to defend your positions.

 

[mardukm]

Are you kidding me?

Yes, I must admit I had the same reaction. Sorry, brother wisdomseeker.

However, I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume our brother was actually and merely trying to distinguish between supernatural faith (from God) and rational belief.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Mickey]

We have our differences, but, theologically, the Eastern Churches under the Pope have managed to create harmony.

Harmony for whom? Even the Roman Catholic hierarchy has admitted that the existence of the Eastern Catholic Churches has created a greater imepedence to reunion with the Orthodox.

 

[Mickey]

However, I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt

Everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt. We are called to love our neighbor.

May God bless you Wisdomseeker!

 

[Mickey]

(if you did when you were a Catholic, then you were not being a very good Catholic )

I hope you are not making a judgement about what kind of Catholic I was with your little winking smiley.

We are all living stones as Scripture states, sharing in the rockiness of Christ.

Amen.

Now, if you can show me where Jesus Himself changed the name of a man to reflect His own Rockiness, then we’ll be good.

The “rockiness” is St Peter’s confession.

And I tell you…‘You are Peter, Rocky, and on this rock I shall build my Church, and the gates of the underworld will not conquer her. To you shall I give the keys of the kingdom. Whatever you bind on earth shall also be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall also be loosed in heaven’ (Mt 16:15-19). In Peter, Rocky, we see our attention drawn to the rock. Now the apostle Paul says about the former people, ‘They drank from the spiritual rock that was following them; but the rock was Christ’ (1 Cor 10:4). So this disciple is called Rocky from the rock, like Christian from Christ…Why have I wanted to make this little introduction? In order to suggest to you that in Peter the Church is to be recognized. Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter’s confession. What is Peter’s confession? ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ There’s the rock for you, there’s the foundation, there’s where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer (John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Vol. 6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327).

And if you can show me where in the Bible anyone else is given the special responsibility and Grace (prayer of Christ) of being the confirmer of the brethren, then we can live happily ever after.

You can now rest at peace. All the Apostles were part of the foundation.

Otherwise, the non-Catholic claims that there is not this particular and unique office instituted by Christ Himself for the edification of His Church falls flat on its face.

I’m sorry Mark. But I will never be convinced that one bishop rules supreme over the universal Church.

And Scripture does not say that.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Are you kidding me?

sorry i got you all worked out over this. i meant to say faith alone but forgot the word alone.

but still you missed my point.

 

[cretu]

Harmony for whom? Even the Roman Catholic hierarchy has admitted that the existence of the Eastern Catholic Churches has created a greater imepedence to reunion with the Orthodox.

and im glad to be a greko-catholic , a bigger impedence to reunion is the lack of will from Orthodox hierarchy to talk about reunion ,

so if the Pope is not the first bishop then whats the supreme authority in the Church, if you`re telling me the Councils, remind me how many Ecumenical Councils did the Orthodox Church have after the schism??

 

[Mickey]

sorry i got you all worked out over this. i meant to say faith alone but forgot the word alone.

but still you missed my point.

I do not get “worked out” over anything. However, I should work out more.

And I did not miss your point.

 

[Mickey]

a bigger impedence to reunion is the lack of will from Orthodox hierarchy to talk about reunion

Remove the scales from your eyes.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I hope you are not making a judgement about what kind of Catholic I was with your little winking smiley.

Amen.

The “rockiness” is St Peter’s confession.

And I tell you…‘You are Peter, Rocky, and on this rock I shall build my Church, and the gates of the underworld will not conquer her. To you shall I give the keys of the kingdom. Whatever you bind on earth shall also be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall also be loosed in heaven’ (Mt 16:15-19). In Peter, Rocky, we see our attention drawn to the rock. Now the apostle Paul says about the former people, ‘They drank from the spiritual rock that was following them; but the rock was Christ’ (1 Cor 10:4). So this disciple is called Rocky from the rock, like Christian from Christ…Why have I wanted to make this little introduction? In order to suggest to you that in Peter the Church is to be recognized. Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter’s confession. What is Peter’s confession? ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ There’s the rock for you, there’s the foundation, there’s where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer (John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Vol. 6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327).
You can now rest at peace. All the Apostles were part of the foundation.

I’m sorry Mark. But I will never be convinced that one bishop rules supreme over the universal Church.

And Scripture does not say that.

dont feel bad, the jews were not convinced that Jesus was the Messiah either. Jesus could not convince them either. maybe the SS did not completely spelled it out to them either.

:byzsoc:

 

[wisdomseeker]

and im glad to be a greko-catholic , a bigger impedence to reunion is the lack of will from Orthodox hierarchy to talk about reunion ,

so if the Pope is not the first bishop then whats the supreme authority in the Church, if you`re telling me the Councils, remind me how many Ecumenical Councils did the Orthodox Church have after the schism??

i dont think they can. there is no one to call a council. no authority to make a decision when they dissagree.

 

[Mickey]

dont feel bad, the jews were not convinced that Jesus was the Messiah either.

Wow! Now you are saying that I am not convinced that Jesus Christ is the Messiah?!? Such a lack of charity! Such insults! Such judgement!

My discussion with you has ended.

 

[cretu]

Remove the scales from your eyes.

not many Orthodox are happy of the catholic-orthodox discusions , the majority of users on Orthodox forums would be glad if they wouldnt talk with the Pope about reunion,

and what did you say about the Ecumenical Councils? i couldnt see very good , please remind me.