The CC on Evolution: A Different Thread, I Hope

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So here’s the question: If the CC issues a proclamation that God’s creation of the universe used (and uses) the method of evolutionary processes—would you accept it?
There is unnecessary ambiguity in your question which probably reflects an incomplete knowledge of Catholicism on your part - no insult intended. A “proclamation” is not necessarily binding on the conscience of Catholics. It needs to be issued in such a way as to be understood to be an infallible statement. If you meant by “a proclamation” an infallible decree, then there is only one answer for a Catholic: Yes, I would accept it.
Catholics believe the Churche’s teachings to be infallibly guided by the Holy Spirit in exactly the same fashion as Scripture.
This fact is pretty obvious, I think, and would end the thread rather quickly, so I wonder what your question really is.
 
You are completely correct about the lack of knowledge. 🙂 What I am “fishing for” I mentioned in Post 19. I guess, given the intensity of the arguments on the forum regarding creation, I was wondering if someone’s commitment to young-earth creation would override their acceptance of CC teaching. But as someone pointed out earlier, the CC is wise not to make this a binding matter, anyway.
 
Just to mention something…

The subtle shift between ‘evolution’ and ‘neo-Darwinism’ and ‘intelligent design’ and ‘Darwinism’ is incredibly difficult to keep track of, and I can’t help but think that many are confused, and many more still use this confusion to manipulate their own agendas. Sometimes I meet people who seem to consider ‘Darwinism’ a philosophy (Evolution without God), while evolution is just evolution, and they believe in evolution with God. Other people treat ‘evolution’ as not only a description of a process without God, but one that has no (even possible) place for God, and any creation - even of the Ken Miller variety - is either creationism, or intelligent design (Or both!)

This before realizing that there are a variety of ‘issues’ with evolution - about how the process works, rather than whether the process took place - and were before Intelligent Design entered the fray. The genes versus environment fight that apparently was had out between Dawkins and Gould. The question of epigenetics, which (I was surprised) it turns out that a good number of ‘neo-darwinists’ doubted the possibility of early on, and which they’re still coping with. Particular questions of the evolution of the human brain, made more difficult by some serious plasticity. And more, I believe.

Basically, the debate is loaded with terms that get shuffled around or generalized to a crazy degree. What a headache.
How true. To some people, believing in creation makes you a creationist. If so, I’m a creationist—whatever that means.
 
Here’s a definitive, magisterial definition: (1) evolution: descent with modification – period; (2) (neo-)Darwinism: a particular theory of how evolution happens; (3) intelligent design: the direct, non-evolutionary, creation by an intelligent being (i.e., God) of “irreducibly complex” biological systems.

Note that (1) evolution does not inherently include, nor exclude, God; (2) particular theories of evolution may include, or may exclude, God; (3) (neo-)Darwinism is a scientific theory, and, thus, necessarily does not invoke the supernatural; (4) intelligent design does not exclude the possibility of evolution occurring as well (e.g., the “irreducibly complex” biological systems, once created, may indeed undergo evolution via completely non-supernatural means). END QUOTE

Not to throw a monkey wrench into the magisterial answer, 🙂 but regarding (3) intelligent design: all the intelligent design theorists I know of (every single one of them, I mean) accepts evolution.
 
Ahimsa, please ignore the post I deleted. I didn’t read yours carefully enough.
 
What I am “fishing for” I mentioned in Post 19… I was wondering if someone’s commitment to young-earth creation would override their acceptance of CC teaching.
Yea, that’s what I figured. :yup: Part of being Catholic is that you are doctrinally “subject to the presbyters” and your limited, personal opinions cannot overide what the Church reveals. It requires a good deal of faith and humility, which is entirely Christ-like.
The average Catholic doesnt develop doctrinal fidelity to undefined things quite like the Protestant communities do. I cant think of any Catholic that would make such a strong stance on the age of the earth so as to jeopardize their faith in the Church.
I personally abandoned any strong stance one way or the other when I realized that in Genesis the author uses the word “day” prior to the earth beginning to orbit the sun. To me, such language leaves open a significant possibility that much of what is said is not meant to be taken literally. Either way it is truly irrelevent in loving God and one another, dontcha think?
 
Yea, that’s what I figured. :yup: Part of being Catholic is that you are doctrinally “subject to the presbyters” and your limited, personal opinions cannot overide what the Church reveals. It requires a good deal of faith and humility, which is entirely Christ-like.
The average Catholic doesnt develop doctrinal fidelity to undefined things quite like the Protestant communities do. I cant think of any Catholic that would make such a strong stance on the age of the earth so as to jeopardize their faith in the Church.
I personally abandoned any strong stance one way or the other when I realized that in Genesis the author uses the word “day” prior to the earth beginning to orbit the sun. To me, such language leaves open a significant possibility that much of what is said is not meant to be taken literally. Either way it is truly irrelevent in loving God and one another, dontcha think?
One should also note that parables are the lingua franca of Scripture. Christ spoke in parables quite often when he wished to illuminate. That there was no prodigal son historically does not make the parable untrue; likewise the account of creation in Genesis, which is a necessary simplification of the birth of the universe put in a fashion understandable by men of that age.
 
There’s a couple Phil P in here. I’m the not so filthy one. But I did make a reference to George Carlin in the other evolution-Pope Benedict thread. :confused:

Phil P
 
Either way it is truly irrelevent in loving God and one another, dontcha think?
Yes. But I am always amazed at how often one’s views on creation are used by others as a litmus test of whether or not you “believe the Bible.”
 
I would conclude that the authors were committing heresey. Evolutionism is incompattible with the Bible, regardless of what some churchmen say. I believe that some of them have lost their faith. They can believe whatever they wish. I know that Evolutionism is a fairytale.
 
I would conclude that the authors were committing heresey. Evolutionism is incompattible with the Bible, regardless of what some churchmen say. I believe that some of them have lost their faith. They can believe whatever they wish. I know that Evolutionism is a fairytale.
How do you know?
 
Somebody mentions earlier in the thread that it is wrong for the church to make a scientific statement.
Now,we are told that proof denies faith and Jesus I believe says somewhere that Faith is the most important thing for a person to have.
So god had to invent this materially perfect,parrallel system of evolution otherwise the very lack of any evidence would have been proof in itself.
Faith because of science.
Science because of Faith.
Through Logic.:console:
 
I would not be ok if the church said God uses evoltuion to create.

I love to debate evolution and through out my years of study i have found the earth to be a young earth. Not to mention so much is lacking in the theory of evolution, such as. Irreducible complexity and also the nature of mutation. Think of even the most simple structures such as a mouse trap, as soon as one part of the trap is taken out then the whole thing doesn’t work. Or think of the process skateboard, toy wagon, bicycle, motorcyle, automobile, airplane, jet plane, and then a space shuttle. Seems like a logical process but a bike can’t become a motorcylce for a lack of parts that can not just come about (Micheal J. Behe). So if we lose part of a system the system falls apart. The system must be able to change and still be able to preform minimal function. I recomend Everyone read Darwin’s Black Box by Michael J. Behe. That’s where i got most of my information from.

I aslo recomend everyone watch this video it helps prove we live on a young earth. halos.com/videos/0001-FingerprintsofCreationEnglish-216k.htm It’s a long video so watch it in sections.
 
<< I also recomend everyone watch this video it helps prove we live on a young earth. >>

I’ve seen that video and am familiar with Robert Gentry, he was the “star witness” in the 1981-82 Arkansas Creationism Trial. He was addressed over 20 years ago by fellow geologists. See these articles at TalkOrigins.

Especially Geology of Gentry’s "Tiny Mystery" published in the Journal of Geological Education in 1988. The author is still awaiting an answer from Gentry.

Phil P
 
To all of you out there who accept Evolutionism, let me ask you, what was “science” saying about our oirigins 200 years ago? what about 150 years ago? 50 years ago? The consensus today?

It seems that “science” keeps changing its tune. 200 years ago, before Charles Darwin corrected God, most scientists were content to acknowledge the fact that our origins were not subject to scientific study. In fact, most scientists throughout history, have believed the Bible version of creation.

150 years ago, many were coming around the Darwin’s view on creation. 50 years ago, many Evolutionists were trying to explain the lack of transitional forms with bizarre theories like “Punctuated Equilibrium”. Today, Evolutionists, while bowing before the altar of Darwin, have a radically different view of Evolution.

Why do they hold so tenaciously to Evolutionism? Why is it so important to them that Evolution be true, and that the rest of us believe it?

Evolution is religion, not science. According to the Bible, people where much more intelligent at the beginning of creation. According to Darwin, we were little more than apes. We have evolved and gotten smarter. Now, which was it?

Why haven’t we evolved immunities against degenerative diseases? If you actually believe that bacteria can “micro evolve” defenses (actually, it is nothing more than variation within species that becomes dominant when one strain is wiped out), why haven’t we been able to evolve immunities to cancer, diabetes and other diseases? I’ll tell you why. We have devolved. We are more prone to diseases than our ancestors. We are weaker. And that is what the Bible says.

It’s either the Word of God, or the word of Darwin, and his successors. Make your choice.
 
To all of you out there who accept Evolutionism, let me ask you, what was “science” saying about our oirigins 200 years ago? what about 150 years ago? 50 years ago? The consensus today?
I don’t think anyone here accepts “Evolutionism”, so your call will fall on deaf ears. 😉
 
It seems that “science” keeps changing its tune. 200 years ago, before Charles Darwin corrected God, most scientists were content to acknowledge the fact that our origins were not subject to scientific study. In fact, most scientists throughout history, have believed the Bible version of creation.
Well, abu (sorry, but that name makes me smile: too close to that Simpsons’ character!)

Darwin NEVER corrected God. Unlike many I have met ready to defend Darwinism against us glassy-eyed Catholics, I have actually read Origin of Species and The Descent of Man. In Origin, in that famous last paragraph which Stephen Jay Gould of Harvard (in Eight Little Piggies)loved to misquote:

“There is grandeur in this view of life…Whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.”

was in reality,

“There is grandeur in this view of life, **with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, **whilst this planet has cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.”

Darwin’s original theory has been supplanted with each new NON-proof into its current fashion.

Please don’t blame Darwin for what these fools have made of him.

Genesis is quite specific about what was CREATED and what was BROUGHT FORTH (or in our parlance: evolved).

And it is truly amazing that even with the ‘dinosaurs’ mentioned in Genesis (and in their correct ‘epoch’ frame of a ‘Day’) many scientists of the Neo-Darwinian-Paleotological-Biologist bent still assert mutation across the phyla.

Amazing, utterly amazing.
Why do they hold so tenaciously to Evolutionism? Why is it so important to them that Evolution be true, and that the rest of us believe it?

To disprove what they might most fear: a Creator (Darwin’s word in Origin) who might require of us an accounting of our actions and words.
We have devolved. We are more prone to diseases than our ancestors. We are weaker. And that is what the Bible says.

And many rabbinical scholars like Maimonides and translations like Onkelos and other targums agree with you (and a few early Popes and Fathers I might add!)
It’s either the Word of God, or the word of Darwin, and his successors. Make your choice.

Yes, and consider the Xenopus: an African toad with teeth in its upper jaw, tentacles on the side of its head, webbed hind feet and claws on its front feet.

A perfect example of a) evolution, or, b) natural selection, or, c) survival of the fittest!]? Any choice under Neo-Darwinism would not satisfy.

I say, let’s make the Xenopus (with “GOULD” inside) the new vehicle stick-on!

Robert
 
abu << To all of you out there who accept Evolutionism, let me ask you, what was “science” saying about our oirigins 200 years ago? what about 150 years ago? 50 years ago? The consensus today? >>

Let’s see, about 2000 years ago, everyone thought the earth was flat: the ancient Egyptians, Babylonians, and Israelites (which includes all the biblical authors):

“If asked about his physical surroundings or about the physical world at large, the typical Israelite would have given a reply very irritating to the modern mind. It is irritating to say the least to hear that the earth is a flat disk, the sky an inverted hard bowl, and that the two form a vast tent-like structure. Of course, other inhabitants of the ancient Near-East would have given similar answers…To be sure, much the same would have been done by a typical ancient Egyptian and Babylonian…The hardness of the sky, but especially the immobility of the earth, had to appear all the more a divinely ordained physical fact as, according to the Bible, a mere man, Joshua, could be authorized by God to stop the sun and the moon in their tracks and, apparently, for a whole day…Obviously, to modern eyes dazzled by space rockets cruising along ‘world lines’ set by Einstein’s four-dimensional cosmology nothing could seem more jarring than the Bible’s physical world, which is little more than a glorified tent. To that tent the Bible assigns the sky as its cover and the earth as its floor, though hardly in a consistent way. In Genesis 1 the sky is a firmament, that is, a hard metal bowl, whereas in Psalm 104 and Isaiah 45:24 it is more like a canvas that can be stretched out…Herein lies one of the non-trivially unscientific aspects of the world as described in the Bible…Well before the advent of modern science, and indeed of heliocentrism, the contrast between that biblical world-tent and the world of Aristotelian-Ptolemaic geocentrism had to appear enormous.” (Fr. Stanley Jaki, Bible and Science, pages 19-25)

About 500 BC to Ptolemy (< 100 AD), the Greeks and others figured out the earth is a sphere, but that it didn’t move, and they thought it was the center of a small universe which included the stars and visible planets rotating around us. This stood for 1500 years.

Then in the 1500’s AD, Copernicus, and later Galileo, figured out, with the aid of telescopes and math (don’t ask me for details :D) that the earth probably did move and revolved around the sun. I do have On the Revolutions of Heavenly Spheres by Nicolaus Copernicus, edited with commentary by Stephen Hawking (Running Press, 2002) but am too dumb to understand it. :confused: Back then people still thought the world was about 6000 years old however.

In the 1700s and 1800s, science (geology) figured out the earth and all living things on it (including us) were changing (this is simplistic but…) and in 1859 Charles Darwin, after studying this for 30 years, published his idea (see What Is Darwinism?) about how “evolution” worked: by natural selection. It was accepted soon after because it made sense and the evidence since his time has only become stronger. In the 1920s and 1930s was the combo of biology and genetics which is the modern neo-Darwinian synthesis.

Then with the rise of modern geology and paleontology, and later discovery (early 1900s) of radioactivity, science figured out many dead and extinct things lived many millions of years in the past, and the earth is in fact billions of years old. That was refined over a period of 50 years to an earth that is 4.5 billion years old. C.C. Patterson of the California Institute of Technology in 1953 is considered the first scientist to calculate the true age of the earth at c. 4.5 billion years (see Dalrymple’s The Age of the Earth).

So in conclusion: science does change, but that is its strength, not a weakness. All the current data and observations science has collected don’t disappear. All of this must be explained by newer or better or improved hypotheses and theories when the evidence requires it.

That’s my summary off the top. Rossum, SteveAnderson, Ghosty, HECD (Alec), zian, Orogeny (Tim) and others can give more detailed answers.

Phil P
 
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