The CC on Evolution: A Different Thread, I Hope

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I think fundamentally there is nothing wrong with belief in evolution (the idea that over time species change), however such belief does not necessarily require the additional adherance to natural selection (the unguided process by which species change). The objection I admit is philisophical and not scientific, though I think science apart from logic and philosophy is impossible since even the most pure scientist has a preconcieved world view thorugh which he tries to explain the world around himself, so assuming that does not disqualify me here goes.

The problem with natural selection is that it fundamentally belives in chance.

The problem with a belief in chance is that chance does not exist.

Understand when I say “chance” I do not mean mathematical probability, what I mean is true uncaused randomness. David Hume explained that in any percieved causal relationship there are innumerable unseen causes which lead either primarily or secondarily toward any outcome of any event. Some people, Kant among them, felt that Hume had done away with cause and effect and the reprecussions among the theological and scientific worlds were severe, but in truth Hume had done no such thing. The assertion that we cannot positively know the cause of an observed effect is not the same as saying that there is such a thing as an uncaused effect. To ascribe anything as having happened “by chance” is to say that something has happened apart from a real physical antecedent cause. Thomas Aquinas rightly identified God as the First Cause of all things with many many secondary causes leading down through the ages to our present day result in a direct line of causality to the world we find around us today. Chance however, having no body power or will, cannot ever be one of those causes. The reason why is simple.

If we were to play cards and loose we might say that “we had bad luck”, but in fact we had no such thing. Rather the handling, ordering, shuffling, dealing, taking of cards by other players led to our losing in a direct causal way and when viewed from this perspective chance, luck, etc. are precluded as having had a hand in our fall. The problem of ascribing causal power to chance is so severe for the neo-Darwinist that even Richard Dawkins discredits the practice, but here is where the natural selectionist runs into the wall.

If evolution is an unguided process of random mutations at the genetic level leading to the changes in species and biodiversity within the macro and micro world, then the unguidedness of evolution apart from St. Thomas’ First Cause can lead, rationally to no other conclusion than that the neo-Darwinist is embracing chance as having causal power.

Of course the Dawkins’s of the world will turn to Quantum mechanics and the percieved randomness found there and claim that there is in fact real randomness within the universe, but a sober scientist who does not subscribe to the omnicompotence of man’s logic will admit that the percieved randomness of Quantum mechanics is probably due more to an incomplete understanding of the phenomenae within the field than actual randomness so there is at best a tenuous defence of randomness to be found there. In fact the advent of the so-called String Theory was born of the uncomfartable nature of the embracing of chance among Quantum Physicists so we should not assume a unified mind within the scientific community at large concerning the apparent random nature of Quantum Physics.

Apart from things like explosions in the fossil record, the astounding lack of fossil evidence and, quoting Bill Bryson here, the absence of our common ancestors with the other apes, the sheer lack of rationality within neo-Darwinism should be enough to preclude it from serious thought all by itself.

I don’t think anyone had mentioned that yet so I thought I would.

God Bless.
 
This is becoming more than I intended. Here’s my question: Are some of the faithful Catholics on this forum so invested into young-earth creationism that the acceptance of evolution on the part of recent Popes (and the CC in general) threatens their commitment to the CC?
My answer to this question: As young-earth-creationism believer I would have to see some strong scientific evidence for evolution, before I might change my believes here. Otherwise I would go into serious doubts about Catholic faith.

But This question can be asked also the other way around: “Are some of the faithful Catholics on this forum so invested into evolution that the acceptance of young-earth creationism would threaten their commitment to the CC?” This is probably the real question.
 
.If god created man in his own image then he has imposed his image on the whole chain of evolution.
I was particularly impressed by the idea that adam and eve represent the point at which god invested men with souls.
Im not sure though that we can say eve was smarter than people today.
 
.If god created man in his own image then he has imposed his image on the whole chain of evolution.
**I was particularly impressed by the idea that adam and eve represent the point at which god invested men with souls. **
Im not sure though that we can say eve was smarter than people today.
This is a belief of the Jews and thus of Catholics.

There are two souls: the animal and the divine.

Robert
 
This is a belief of the Jews and thus of Catholics. There are two souls: the animal and the divine.Robert
I just heard the first goose flock honking this year. I guess they are getting ready to fly south. A bit early. Well now back to the topic of the thread.

😦
 
As long as the Catholic Church teaches as De Fide Dogma that Eve was created from Adam-- Special Creation–at least in her case only is True and her having evolved is a Lie!
 
cp << Are some of the faithful Catholics on this forum so invested into young-earth creationism that the acceptance of evolution on the part of recent Popes (and the CC in general) threatens their commitment to the CC? >>

Thanks for creation-evolution thread #23591237236123769 😃

What those faithful Catholics need to realize:

(1) modern creationism is basically a Protestant Fundamentalist thing

(2) Specifically it goes back to the Seventh-day Adventists of the early 20th century like George McCready Price who passed his ideas down to folks like Henry Morris (co-author 1961 The Genesis Flood, and founder of Institute for Creation Research)

(3) Finally, the original evangelical/fundamentalist Protestant theologians just after Darwin accepted evolution, it was only later the SdA’s that rejected modern geology, biology, and who were anti-evolution, etc.

See the book Darwin’s Forgotten Defenders by Livingstone

So this modern (20th century) creationism is not a Catholic thing at all, it is specifically SdA.

Phil P
 
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abu_kamoon:
(1) modern creationism is basically a Protestant Fundamentalist thing

(2) Specifically it goes back to the Seventh-day Adventists of the early 20th century like George McCready Price who passed his ideas down to folks like Henry Morris (co-author 1961 The Genesis Flood, and founder of Institute for Creation Research)

(3) Finally, the original evangelical/fundamentalist Protestant theologians just after Darwin accepted evolution, it was only later the SdA’s that rejected modern geology, biology, and who were anti-evolution, etc.

This is nonsense! It’s ideas like that which cause Protestants to claim that Catholic belifs conflict with the Bible. The Catholic Church has always believed in Creation by a Creator. It is only in recent years that Modernism has manifested itself in such novelties as evolution.

Evolution is incompatible with the Catholic faith. Modernism causes a lack of faith, and I believe we see this today in the Church. It is at the root of the homosexuality among a portion of the priests and bishops.

Corruption within the Church was the root cause of the Protestant Reformation. What began as disgust at the greed of a portion of the clergy that was not being addressed by Rome, resulted in the formation of new sects. Today, the bishops are NOT dealing with the scandal in the Church. They refuse to clean house in the seminaries, some of which are hotbeds of homosexuality. Many of them cover up the crimes.

Is it any wonder that beieve in evolution, despite what the Bible explicitly says, is widespread? Popes in the last century were warning against Modernism. Today, we are seeing the result of it.
 
Is it any wonder that beieve in evolution, despite what the Bible explicitly says, is widespread? Popes in the last century were warning against Modernism. Today, we are seeing the result of it.
I don’t think modernism is tied to evolution as tightly as you’re saying - I consider myself staunchly against modernism, while at the same time having no trouble seeing evolution as a creative act by God.

At the same time, I do think that evolution has been warped and subsequently wielded by a wide variety of enemies of the church.
 
I just heard the first goose flock honking this year. I guess they are getting ready to fly south. A bit early. Well now back to the topic of the thread.

😦
Hey Everybody! Didn’t you read Ani???

She JUST heard the first goose flock honking this year!!

Get “back to the topic of the thread” 😃

Robert
 
I think you may find that in the story of eve having come from adam,s rib,the bible was in fact giving a clue for those who will think about it a little more closely.
The clue pointing the way towards the revelation of evolution.
The layout and different number of ribs point directly to a common single sex ancestor at some point where a cell doesnt merely copy itself but produces two differing,interdependent cells.👍
 
My answer to this question: As young-earth-creationism believer I would have to see some strong scientific evidence for evolution, before I might change my believes here. Otherwise I would go into serious doubts about Catholic faith.

But This question can be asked also the other way around: “Are some of the faithful Catholics on this forum so invested into evolution that the acceptance of young-earth creationism would threaten their commitment to the CC?” This is probably the real question.
If the CC declared that the evidence for gravity were no longer to be accepted by Catholics, I would accept the Church’s position. I would also pray for it to be changed (quickly) and pray that the Church picked its battles a bit more carefully.

The CC’s position on evolution so far has appeared to me to be moderate and thoughtful. Of course, its position is also not young-earth creationism.
 
I think fundamentally there is nothing wrong with belief in evolution (the idea that over time species change), however such belief does not necessarily require the additional adherance to natural selection (the unguided process by which species change). The objection I admit is philisophical and not scientific, though I think science apart from logic and philosophy is impossible since even the most pure scientist has a preconcieved world view thorugh which he tries to explain the world around himself, so assuming that does not disqualify me here goes.

The problem with natural selection is that it fundamentally belives in chance.
The problem with your statement is that you are fundamentally wrong. Natural Selection is NOT a random process.
The problem with a belief in chance is that chance does not exist.
Understand when I say “chance” I do not mean mathematical probability, what I mean is true uncaused randomness.
Oh dear, oh dear. You are wrong again. You obviously don’t know anything about quantum mechanics where the truly random and the uncaused effect occurs…
David Hume explained that in any percieved causal relationship there are innumerable unseen causes which lead either primarily or secondarily toward any outcome of any event. Some people, Kant among them, felt that Hume had done away with cause and effect and the reprecussions among the theological and scientific worlds were severe, but in truth Hume had done no such thing. The assertion that we cannot positively know the cause of an observed effect is not the same as saying that there is such a thing as an uncaused effect
You are correct in distinguishing between cause that we can perceive and conceive and cause that we cannot because of complexity and chaos effects - but quantum randomness is not of this kind It is fundamentally random and uncaused. Hume and Kant knew nothing of Heisenberg, Bohr, Pauli, Schrodinger.
To ascribe anything as having happened “by chance” is to say that something has happened apart from a real physical antecedent cause. Thomas Aquinas rightly identified God as the First Cause of all things with many many secondary causes leading down through the ages to our present day result in a direct line of causality to the world we find around us today. Chance however, having no body power or will, cannot ever be one of those causes. The reason why is simple.
Aquinas knew nothing of quantum mechanics and he was simply wrong about this.
If we were to play cards and loose we might say that “we had bad luck”, but in fact we had no such thing. Rather the handling, ordering, shuffling, dealing, taking of cards by other players led to our losing in a direct causal way and when viewed from this perspective chance, luck, etc. are precluded as having had a hand in our fall.
Carry on in that vein and you’ll deny free will. However, cards are a little large to display quantum randomness. The randomness of card deals is mostly of the deterministic-but-too-complicated-for-us-to-understand kind.
If evolution is an unguided process of random mutations at the genetic level leading to the changes in species and biodiversity within the macro and micro world, then the unguidedness of evolution apart from St. Thomas’ First Cause can lead, rationally to no other conclusion than that the neo-Darwinist is embracing chance as having causal power.
Repeat after me: Natural Selection is not a random process. What do you think about chance in the genesis of new human beings - sorting of chromosomes, recombination, selection of sperm.
Of course the Dawkins’s of the world will turn to Quantum mechanics and the percieved randomness found there and claim that there is in fact real randomness within the universe, but a sober scientist who does not subscribe to the omnicompotence of man’s logic will admit that the percieved randomness of Quantum mechanics is probably due more to an incomplete understanding of the phenomenae within the field than actual randomness so there is at best a tenuous defence of randomness to be found there
A sober scientist will tell you that quantum randomness is fundamentally, deeply random - all attempts to find hidden variables have failed - if you don’t think that the quantum world is fundamentally deeply weird and random, then you haven’t begun to understand it (beginning to understand it is a bout as much as any of us can do).
Apart from things like explosions in the fossil record, the astounding lack of fossil evidence
The astounding LACK of fossil evidence? Do you have any idea how much fossil evidence there is? There was enough fossil evidence in 1800 to show, quite reliably, that evolution had occurred.

Alec
evolutionpages.com/Eomaia%20scansoria.htm
 
The problem with your statement is that you are fundamentally wrong. Natural Selection is NOT a random process.
The astounding LACK of fossil evidence? Do you have any idea how much fossil evidence there is? There was enough fossil evidence in 1800 to show, quite reliably, that evolution had occurred.
 
If natural selection is not random, then what is the mechanism which directs it?
Sigh. Natural selection ***is ***a non-random mechanism - it is a non-random filter which modifies the frequency of alleles and traits in descendant populations.
There is no fossil evidence indicating (much less proving) evolution across phyla.
That’s true, but there is ample fossil evidence of the emergence of new orders. As I have said before, there is no proof in science - that’s for mathematics and booze.
Even Darwin in Origin admitted the LACK of fossil evidence.
Nevertheless, the fact is that in Darwin’s day there was enough fossil evidence to demonstrate that evolution had occurred. Since then, we have found, literally tons of the stuff, to the point where the stratification of fossils and the development of orders, makes a denial of the fact of evolution quite unreasonable.
Instead we have ‘punctuated equilibrium’ and mathematicians and physicists telling evolutionary biologists (like S J Gould) that there isn’t enough TIME on Earth for classic or neo-Darwin models to have evolved.
And what respectable mathematicians and physicists would they be?

Alec
evolutionpages.com/big_bang_no_myth.htm
 
Sigh. Natural selection ***is ***

a non-random mechanism - it is a non-random filter which modifies the frequency of alleles and traits in descendant populations.

So, you’re defining ‘natural selection’ as a “non-random filter”?

You allege it is a “non-random mechanism” which begs the question as to its substantive, tactile reality. Yet, you give us a tautological reply and say it “modifies the frequency of alleles and traits [do you mean ‘genes’ here?] in descendant populations.”

What the heck is that!!?? What does this ‘filter’ look like? Is it the same in all species?

Cut out the verbal gymnastics, please, we are poor, ignorant folk out here in Cal-ee-for-knee-ya!

What are you TRYING to say here, Alec?
 
Nevertheless, the fact is that in Darwin’s day there was enough fossil evidence to demonstrate that evolution had occurred. Since then, we have found, literally tons of the stuff, to the point where the stratification of fossils and the development of orders, makes a denial of the fact of evolution quite unreasonable.
 
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