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mercygate
Guest
Ain’t it the truth!Who was it – maybe Mark Twain? – who said that he didn’t have trouble with the things in Scripture that were hard to understand but with those things that were spelled out plain and clear!
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Ain’t it the truth!Who was it – maybe Mark Twain? – who said that he didn’t have trouble with the things in Scripture that were hard to understand but with those things that were spelled out plain and clear!
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AServantofGod
Guest
The important thing to remember here is that the Bible says that we are not to receive the body & blood of Christ unworthily that is with mortal sin on our soul. Yes, Jesus would love all people after all he came for all sinners. Yes, and he would have invited them to dine with him; however, to invite them to partake of the Eucharist would be inviting them to fall into greater sin.
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Tom
Guest
Hi rep, welcome to the forums, it confuses me a little when people say there are too many “rules” and then continue to describe things which are specifically “against” the rules. Let’s use your example of homosexuality, it’s painfully obvious you haven’t read the “rules” in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC). Please do yourself a favor and read the “rules”. They are some of the most beautiful, loving teachings I’ve ever read. The “rules” definitely do not call us to demonize anyone but to love them with all of our heart. Please, please, please read the teachings of the CCC on sexuality, and when you read them, read them ALL, don’t take things out of context. People who
rep1867:
are not following the “rules”. The “rules” or teachings in the CCC are to protect the weak, the sinner, we are called to hate the sin but to love the sinner, and the “rules” are there to tell us exactly how to act lovingly. You’re attacking the “rules” which are intended to protect people.
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NotWorthy
Guest
Why do we have to make life so complicated??? If you don’t like a rule of the Catholic Church, do some research on it. We have tons of information on-line, the library, and of course, your church, where you can find out what the Church teaches and why it teaches it.
I, too, had the problem you did, Rep. I sort of got bogged down in the rules. But then I started to study the church’s history, teachings, and traditions, I found out that the Church LOVES us as it’s own children! These rules make sense, because they are protecting us from the ultimate punishment, separation from God!
If you have a child, and it was doing something that was causing it to be in danger, what would you do? Should we expect our Church to do anything different for us?
Read the Bible. Study the Catechism. Follow the Early Church Fathers. Examine our History. Then come back and tell us what you think.
Good Luck!
Not Worthy
I, too, had the problem you did, Rep. I sort of got bogged down in the rules. But then I started to study the church’s history, teachings, and traditions, I found out that the Church LOVES us as it’s own children! These rules make sense, because they are protecting us from the ultimate punishment, separation from God!
If you have a child, and it was doing something that was causing it to be in danger, what would you do? Should we expect our Church to do anything different for us?
Read the Bible. Study the Catechism. Follow the Early Church Fathers. Examine our History. Then come back and tell us what you think.
Good Luck!
Not Worthy
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martino
Guest
Rep…I know where you are coming from but I do believe you are very wrong on this.
The only alternative is a Church without rules…meaning anything goes and that would include homosexual priests and bishops, same sex marriages, premarital sex would be ok as would abortion on demand. You either stand for the truth 100% of the time or dont stand for it at all. The Anglican/Episopalians have actually put your idea into practice and now they no longer even resemble a Christian church anymore.
Jesus was a contradiction to the world and the world killed Him, likewise the Church is also to be a contraditction to the world…and yes the world will kill us too eventually!
The reason it seems like so many rules is because there is so much bad behavior. Rules are a sign of disobedience! If a teacher gives her class an assignment to write a 5 page paper the students will come back with 5 pages but triple spaced and gigantic fonts. The teacher will have to make some rules…the paper must be double spaced and have a font no larger than 12. OK fine, then the students come back with the margins pushed way inside so the teacher is forced to make more rules regarding the margins…on and on it goes. How upset will her next years students be when they get the same assignment with all the newly established rules in place. Cant you just hear one of them saying, “why are there so many rules all the time?..it seems like this class is too focused on the rules rather than on the work!”
The only alternative is a Church without rules…meaning anything goes and that would include homosexual priests and bishops, same sex marriages, premarital sex would be ok as would abortion on demand. You either stand for the truth 100% of the time or dont stand for it at all. The Anglican/Episopalians have actually put your idea into practice and now they no longer even resemble a Christian church anymore.
Jesus was a contradiction to the world and the world killed Him, likewise the Church is also to be a contraditction to the world…and yes the world will kill us too eventually!
The reason it seems like so many rules is because there is so much bad behavior. Rules are a sign of disobedience! If a teacher gives her class an assignment to write a 5 page paper the students will come back with 5 pages but triple spaced and gigantic fonts. The teacher will have to make some rules…the paper must be double spaced and have a font no larger than 12. OK fine, then the students come back with the margins pushed way inside so the teacher is forced to make more rules regarding the margins…on and on it goes. How upset will her next years students be when they get the same assignment with all the newly established rules in place. Cant you just hear one of them saying, “why are there so many rules all the time?..it seems like this class is too focused on the rules rather than on the work!”
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
I fully agree.
The other side of it is: I also find it interesting that people always seem to think the rules are the proclaimed loudly and clearly toward other brothers whenever we have accused them in our hearts of being guilty of a “genitalicular” sin.
They can be mean, and we just say he has an occasional temper flare-up.
They can be dishonest with taces, and we say he cheats on taxes.
They can exhibit all kinds of uncharitableness and we say they are sometimes in a bad mood.
If they have abnormal sexual situation, we say they are immoral and must get their heart examined before coming anywhere near the COmmunion table.
If the sin has to do with the “no-no” parts, we get out the scorched earth offense. :tsktsk:
Alan
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rep1867
Guest
No no no, I didn’t mean to attack the Church in any way. I hope no one recognized my original post as such. I was just a little confused that’s all and wanted people’s opinions. I’m happy and proud to be a Catholic and it’s hard for me to imagine being anything else. All of your suggestions and opinions are much appreciated.
I’m too sensitive a soul for these forums (I got creamed today in another thread and it really shook me up). I really can’t handle this in my life right now. So I asked to be de-registered, I think it’s best for me to grow my faith in ways other than these forums. But peace to you all and I hope you all move ever closer to God with or without these forums.
-rep
I’m too sensitive a soul for these forums (I got creamed today in another thread and it really shook me up). I really can’t handle this in my life right now. So I asked to be de-registered, I think it’s best for me to grow my faith in ways other than these forums. But peace to you all and I hope you all move ever closer to God with or without these forums.
-rep
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Liberian
Guest
Rep,
I agree with you wholeheartedly about catching more flies with honey than with vinegar. And indeed Jesus would have eaten with homosexuals, divorcees, and so on. But a lot of what you see happening in the Church nowadays is a purely human (and possibly justified) reaction to the campaign to change Church teachings on these subjects. While Jesus would certainly have accepted the sinners, there is no way He would have said “What you did (or are doing) is quite all right.” He forgave the woman caught in adultery, but told her to “Go and sin no more.” The rainbow sash wearers are trying to get the Church to say that what they are doing is just fine, and simply put it isn’t.
- Liberian
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didymus
Guest
This is off-topic but I’ve always wondered about the athletic imagery in Paul’s Epistles. Sports were a Greek tradition, thoroughly rejected by the Jews – so how did Saul/Paul, who was such an orthodx Jew that he was persecuting Christians uses such language so much?
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
It was very clear to me that you were not showing disrespect or plans to refute or disobey anything.
I enjoyed this thread, as have others. Don’t let a few misconnections dissuade you please, because I for one would like to hear more from you.
Keep in mind also that others on this forum often get kind of sensitive about certain issues and sometimes trigger defensive maneuvers (shields up!) pretty quickly; most of the time they will calm down. Either way you need not worry; we are all sinners in this same hospital. Plus, I figure if someone is really not a sinner like the rest of us, then maybe they don’t need to be in a hospital.
They say it is I who shouldn’t be there because I am a sinner, but they have it backwards from what Jesus actually taught.It’s a matter of combining good theology (which I don’t claim) with good Mystical Theology (which I claim to have made some progress in) which is the science of love, and really is needed to become a saint. One of these millenia the Church will work that into mainsream Catholicism I suppose.
I hope the same for you. If you are having a difficult time, sometimes these same people who are defensive about questions about the church can be wonderful at helping bring those considerable knowledge resources of the Church and the saints to bear on the issue.
If you must leave, I understand. If you wish to stay, I personally will commit to helping you get acquainted and feel welcome. If not welcome, than at least not creamed.
Alan
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AServantofGod
Guest
Didn’t Paul often speak to the gentiles? Maybe they were who he was targeting with references to athletics.
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rep1867
Guest
Thank you so much Alan. (I’ve sent you a private message, please read!) To everyone else, please again let me reassert that I love the Church and my Catholic faith. I’m in a rough patch of life now and my anxiety has manifested itself on my posts, moreso on the other thread. I believe in the goodness of the people here.It was very clear to me that you were not showing disrespect or plans to refute or disobey anything.
I enjoyed this thread, as have others. Don’t let a few misconnections dissuade you please, because I for one would like to hear more from you.
Keep in mind also that others on this forum often get kind of sensitive about certain issues and sometimes trigger defensive maneuvers (shields up!) pretty quickly; most of the time they will calm down. Either way you need not worry; we are all sinners in this same hospital. Plus, I figure if someone is really not a sinner like the rest of us, then maybe they don’t need to be in a hospital.
It’s a matter of combining good theology (which I don’t claim) with good Mystical Theology (which I claim to have made some progress in) which is the science of love, and really is needed to become a saint. One of these millenia the Church will work that into mainsream Catholicism I suppose.
I hope the same for you. If you are having a difficult time, sometimes these same people who are defensive about questions about the church can be wonderful at helping bring those considerable knowledge resources of the Church and the saints to bear on the issue.
If you must leave, I understand. If you wish to stay, I personally will commit to helping you get acquainted and feel welcome. If not welcome, than at least not creamed.
Alan
Peace to you all!!!
-rep
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viktor_aleksndr
Guest
Rules, rules, rules, yes many rules but these rules focuses on how can we become good children and servants of GOD. I think that these “rules” is one of the reason why the CC is still existing (well of course the main reason for the existence of the CC is because of the Holy Spirit)
CC is also like a country guided with rules or law. The only difference is the rules or law in CC is made with the guidance of The Holy Spirit
CC is also like a country guided with rules or law. The only difference is the rules or law in CC is made with the guidance of The Holy Spirit
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SusanL
Guest
Hi. Believe me, we’ve all gotten creamed at different times by different posters. (I even had one want me suspended for “flaming posts.”
)Different people, different personalities and also a lack of understanding of what people mean by their written words. (Can’t see facial expressions or the tone of their voice). Plus, sometimes people are just so used to having our beloved church attacked that they put their dukes up and are ready for a fight.
And sometimes people have absolutely no manners.
Take a breather if you must but please come back and visit when you feel ready. We’d all love to hear your thoughts on different issues.
God bless you and yours.
Sue
R
reen12
Guest
Dear rep1867,
quote: rep1867
being anxious, OK? I’ve been in a rough patch since
this past March, and I’ve found these forums to be
of great help [even when I’ve been cautioned that
I may be on the road to hell by a few posters!
]
I took a quick look at the other thread that I think
you were referring to. Be of good cheer, rep1867 !
I’ve found that that general topic brings out deep feelings
on either side of the issue. You just happened to
walk by, so to speak, expressed your views, and
met with opposing views, vigorously expressed, in
some cases.
Someone suggested that you might enjoy the
apologetics forum etc. That might be a good
idea. *
As to leaving, I’ve said twice, since March, that
I was leaving. But, here I am.
If you call to mind that some issues are “hot button”
issues for many people, [in the sense that if you
hold A with vigor, some are going to hold B…with
equal vigor] it might make forum-life easier.
Sometimes, I walk away from the computer
full of disgust and aggravation at what I’ve read,
or a reply that I’ve recieved. I find that watching
a few Scooby Doo cartoons restores my sense
of well-being, and the next day I’m back online,
posting away on the Forums.
There are a lot of good people here, rep 1867.
Many are kind and gentle and full of charity,
supportive, too.
I hope that you choose to stick around.
I’m sorry that you’re having a rough patch. I’m
going to say some prayers for you today [for
whatever my prayers are worth!] that God brings
you comfort.
Well, a couple of slates fell off the roof, so I’ve
got to go call the roofer. [Oh, joy :crying:]
Hope you have a good day, rep1867,
reen12*
quote: rep1867
Oh, yes, anxiety! Don’t be at all concerned about
being anxious, OK? I’ve been in a rough patch since
this past March, and I’ve found these forums to be
of great help [even when I’ve been cautioned that
I may be on the road to hell by a few posters!
]I took a quick look at the other thread that I think
you were referring to. Be of good cheer, rep1867 !
I’ve found that that general topic brings out deep feelings
on either side of the issue. You just happened to
walk by, so to speak, expressed your views, and
met with opposing views, vigorously expressed, in
some cases.
Someone suggested that you might enjoy the
apologetics forum etc. That might be a good
idea. *
As to leaving, I’ve said twice, since March, that
I was leaving. But, here I am.
If you call to mind that some issues are “hot button”
issues for many people, [in the sense that if you
hold A with vigor, some are going to hold B…with
equal vigor] it might make forum-life easier.
Sometimes, I walk away from the computer
full of disgust and aggravation at what I’ve read,
or a reply that I’ve recieved. I find that watching
a few Scooby Doo cartoons restores my sense
of well-being, and the next day I’m back online,
posting away on the Forums.
There are a lot of good people here, rep 1867.
Many are kind and gentle and full of charity,
supportive, too.
I hope that you choose to stick around.
I’m sorry that you’re having a rough patch. I’m
going to say some prayers for you today [for
whatever my prayers are worth!] that God brings
you comfort.
Well, a couple of slates fell off the roof, so I’ve
got to go call the roofer. [Oh, joy :crying:]
Hope you have a good day, rep1867,
reen12*
D
Didi
Guest
In reading your original post and title, it got me to thinking about how every rule, every doctrine, leads us closer to Jesus. When we find out the “why” behind the rules, it is then that the beauty of our Church and our heritage come to life.
Someone was commenting once about how picky the priest was with how the corporal was folded after the consecration. [The corporal is the cloth onto which the hosts are placed during consecration so no fragments are left on the underlying altar cloth.] It is to be folded in a precise manner, so if there are any precious particles of Jesus from any of the hosts, they are enclosed in the cloth and do not fall out onto the floor. When I explained this, they said “Oh, that’s kinda cool. I didn’t know that!”
There is a purpose, and usually quite a beautiful one, behind the rules. Each time I learn something else I just marvel at the richness of our Church!
Someone was commenting once about how picky the priest was with how the corporal was folded after the consecration. [The corporal is the cloth onto which the hosts are placed during consecration so no fragments are left on the underlying altar cloth.] It is to be folded in a precise manner, so if there are any precious particles of Jesus from any of the hosts, they are enclosed in the cloth and do not fall out onto the floor. When I explained this, they said “Oh, that’s kinda cool. I didn’t know that!”
There is a purpose, and usually quite a beautiful one, behind the rules. Each time I learn something else I just marvel at the richness of our Church!
B
bellesjoy
Guest
Having completed the last year a year and a half of classes taught by our Bishop each week covering the Catechism from cover to cover, I would encourage anyone feeling that the Church is too much about rules to find such a class and immerse yourself in it.
You will find that the CCC is far from a book of rules, but rather a handbook for your faith, cross referenced with thousands of citations from the Sacred Scripture, ecclesiastical documents, Pontifical writings and more. It is a gift to us from Pope John Paul II that shows us how beautiful the Holy Mother Church is and how it is indeed the Body of Christ.
The references you find there (CCC 2357-59) are loving and accepting of homosexuals: “They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.” This refers to the person, not the sin. All of us are called to be united in our suffering to the sacrifice of the Cross regardless of the difficulty we may experience in doing so.
This is the faith we are called to live, as modeled by Jesus. This is the Church Christ formed for us. There is no lack of love therein. It is a complete package, wrapped up as a gift to us. How blessed we are!
“May the light of the true faith free humanity from the ignorance and slavery of sin in order to lead it to the only freedom worthy of the name: that of life in Jesus Christ under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, here below and in the Kingdom of heaven, in the fullness of the blessed vision of God face to face!”…John Pau II in Fidei Depositum on the publication of the CCC.
You will find that the CCC is far from a book of rules, but rather a handbook for your faith, cross referenced with thousands of citations from the Sacred Scripture, ecclesiastical documents, Pontifical writings and more. It is a gift to us from Pope John Paul II that shows us how beautiful the Holy Mother Church is and how it is indeed the Body of Christ.
The references you find there (CCC 2357-59) are loving and accepting of homosexuals: “They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.” This refers to the person, not the sin. All of us are called to be united in our suffering to the sacrifice of the Cross regardless of the difficulty we may experience in doing so.
This is the faith we are called to live, as modeled by Jesus. This is the Church Christ formed for us. There is no lack of love therein. It is a complete package, wrapped up as a gift to us. How blessed we are!
“May the light of the true faith free humanity from the ignorance and slavery of sin in order to lead it to the only freedom worthy of the name: that of life in Jesus Christ under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, here below and in the Kingdom of heaven, in the fullness of the blessed vision of God face to face!”…John Pau II in Fidei Depositum on the publication of the CCC.
D
DavidFilmer
Guest
Exactly how much rules and doctrine would you suggest? Which ones would you eleminate?
I’m reminded of the film Amadeus, where the Prince criticizes one of Mozart’s pieces as having “too many notes.” Mozart asked, “exactly which notes would you have me remove?”
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
Using an the analogy by Alan Watts, there are two kinds of people: the prickly people and the gooey people.
We need both kinds. We also have some partials, the prickly gooey people and the gooey prickly people.
Prickly people might want to focus on getting the rules straight.
Gooey people might want to focus on getting the attitude right.
There is room in the Body of Christ for both prickles and goo.
Alan
We need both kinds. We also have some partials, the prickly gooey people and the gooey prickly people.
Prickly people might want to focus on getting the rules straight.
Gooey people might want to focus on getting the attitude right.
There is room in the Body of Christ for both prickles and goo.
Alan
S
savone
Guest
So, we ought to "stick"with one another?
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