"The census that called Mary and Joseph to Bethlehem never existed" - true?

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Of all the lectures/books of his I’ve heard, I’ve never heard him “attack” Christians. In fact, he often goes out of his way to say that even if he cannot find facts about something in the bible and even if he doesn’t believe it’s true/happened…doesn’t mean it didn’t.
Sounds like you might not know that, tho, cause you imply that you haven’t actually read his stuff? ("…I wouldn’t know if he does or doesn’t, etc…")

He was once a fundamentalist christian who believed all that was written in the bible …until he studied it closely. Now, he presents the facts as he finds them.
And honestly, the more I read his work, the more his thoughts and findings and opinions make logical sense to me.

Here’s a good feature in the Washington Post that describes his spiritual journey, if anyone’s interested:

washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/04/AR2006030401369.html
Nobody follows links suggested by others, DaddyGirl 😉

Anyway, I stopped reading your link right where Ehrman says the following:
The Bible simply wasn’t error-free. The mistakes grew exponentially as he traced translations through the centuries. There are some 5,700 ancient Greek manuscripts that are the basis of the modern versions of the New Testament, and scholars have uncovered more than 200,000 differences in those texts.
“Put it this way: There are more variances among our manuscripts than there are words in the New Testament,” Ehrman summarizes.
That has got to be the most deceptive and disingenuous statement I’ve heard since the 2008 presidential campaign.

But for every Bad Bart, there’s at least a dozen intelligent, honest, and captivating counter-examples.

Lee Strobel followed the exact opposite path, from atheism to Christianity, and documented it in a gripping best-seller “The Case For Christ” and also has a video version by the same name scattered around the internet. Google it yourselves.

I was so impressed by Strobel’s care, caution, and objectivity that I put it on the required reading list for my Intro/NT course. Strobel does an unparalleled job, not only at raising the same - and quite reasonable - kinds of questions that Ehrman brings up, but also Strobel gives solid answers to those questions based on facts and logic, rather than on wishful thinking.
 
The Bible simply wasn’t error-free. The mistakes grew exponentially as he traced translations through the centuries. There are some 5,700 ancient Greek manuscripts that are the basis of the modern versions of the New Testament, and scholars have uncovered more than 200,000 differences in those texts.
“Put it this way: There are more variances among our manuscripts than there are words in the New Testament,” Ehrman summarizes.
As Lubomyr points out, this is a very questionable conclusion. The mistakes did not “grow exponentially.”

In this case, Professor Ehrman is using statistics as a drunk man uses a lamp-post - for support, rather than illumination.

Those 200,000 textual differences are almost all inconsequential.

In addition to the 5,700 hand-written Greek copies of the NT, we have 10,000 Latin copies; 10,000 to 15,000 in other languages (Coptic, Syriac, Armenian, Georgian, etc,) – so we actually have about 25,000 to 30,000 copies of the NT. That means we have multiple streams of transmissions (so the “Telephone Game” is not in play) textual, and copies can be cross-checked to make sure an addition or change in a copy was not passed down incorrectly.

Plus, we have quotations from the NT in other texts. The early fathers of the Church quoted so often from the NT we could almost recreate the NT just from their quotes, with about 1 million (!) quotations from the NT from the 1st cent to 13th cent in their manuscripts.

Of the 200,000 to 400,000 “variants” Bart Ehrman claims in the NT (there are only 138,162 words in the Greek NT), he is counting in all the handwritten manuscripts, including those as late as the 13th or 14th century. We have so many variants because we have so many manuscripts to compare, and very early copies. We have fragments of the Gospel of John on papyrus (in the John Rylands Library at Manchester University) that are dated from 100 A.D. to no later than 150 A.D. and papyrologist Adolph Deissman dated it in the 90s.

Ehrman is also including textual variations in lectionaries, which combined biblical accounts for reading during Mass but which weren’t actual “Bibles.”

Obviously, small errors in transcription will occur when you have that many texts being hand-copied over the centuries. Since we have earlier copies, we are able to identify them.

The vast majority of those textual variants consist of:

The most common variant is the “moveable nu” – The Greek letter “N” (Nu) is used at the end of a word when the next word starts with a vowel (as in English – a car, an apple). It has no effect on the meaning of the word, but each is counted as a textual variant.

Different words used (e,g., “Lord” in John 4:1, but “Jesus” used in all the other texts).

A single misspelling counts as a variant (the most common variant)

Another common misspelling is “Johnn” for John – it has no difference in English.

Nonsense errors, when an inattentive scribe makes an obvious error – a manuscript in the Smithsonian has the word “and” instead of “Lord” – (kind of similar in Greek – “kai” vs. “kurios”. In context, and with other manuscripts, it’s obvious what was meant.

Synonym variants as an artifact of the translation process

Use of a definite article with a proper name in Greek – “the Mary” or “the Jesus” (shades of The Big Lebowski) which was common in Greek but not always transcribed.

Variant word orders in Greek, as sentence structure isn’t as formal in Greek (Russian is similar).

Only about 1% of variants are both meaningful (affecting the meaning to some extent) and viable (they may go back to the original text). Of these, none affect foundational beliefs. Two of the most famous are Romans 5:1 “We have peace” or “Let us have peace”. Neither variant affects doctrinal issues. 1 John 1:4 “Thus we are writing these things that our joy may be complete” or “so that your joy may be complete.”

No cardinal or essential doctrine is affected. Some may affect orthopraxy (right practice) but not orthodoxy (right belief), as in Mark 9:29, where Jesus says you can’t cast out a certain kind of demon except by prayer – some add “and fasting.”

Most interesting: The earliest manuscript of Revelation Chapter 13 at Oxford (from the 3rd Century) says # of Beast is 616, not 666 (as does a 5th century manuscript).

There are some meaningful textual differences that are the subject of debate, such as the presence of 1 John 5:7-8 in King James, Mark’s post-Resurrection appearance (Christians picking up snakes, speaking in tongues, etc.) which doesn’t appear in out two earliest texts (Codex Vaticanus or Codex Sinaiticus) and may have been added in the 2nd Century, or Jesus preventing the stoning of the adultress, which isn’t in the earliest manuscripts (as noted in most study Bibles) but could still well be historical.

I’ve adapted the above from one of Professor Ehrman’s critics, Daniel B. Wallace, Ph.D, Professor of New Testament Studies at Dallas Theological Seminary.

Professor Ehrman has an axe to grind, and that makes the conclusions he draws from his scholarship questionable.
 
Amen.

If Luke were either sloppy at best, or a liar at worst, look how he ridiculously stacks the deck against himself:

“In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of the region of Ituraea and Trachonitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene, in the high-priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas…” (Luke 3:1-2, RSV).

A spiel like that literally begs the reader to consider that Luke is really talking about something that really happened in a real place at a real time that can be pinned down in public knowledge . People who fabricate myths simply don’t paint themselves into a corner like that.
Exactly. The historical details in Luke have been challenged many times yet been confirmed by later archaeological and textual findings, so we should consider him a reputable source.
 
Stephen Fry is anti-Christian in general and vehemently anti-Catholic in particular.
I like Stephen Fry and his humour, but you only have to go to youtube and look at his debate on BBCs Intelligence Squared to see that he doesnt think much of the religion - though he stressed he was not anti-catholic persons as say a bigot would be - and that I suppose is to his credit.

As an aisde Fry and Hitchens absolutely trashed the catholic side in that debate! The fact that the BBC decided the result before by putting a mismatch (two of the best public speakers in Britain) against a foreigner and the shrillest lady in England (Anne Widdecomb) taught me more about the BBC and what catholics are up against than what was said at the debate.
 
Christian charity toward an agnostic / atheist professor of religious studies who writes slanted books about the Son of God?

No, the man has gone past stupid, he’s an idiot.
Are you able to answer the OP’s question?
 
Those 200,000 textual differences are almost all inconsequential.
Right, Mike, and “variant” isn’t even defined in context, so for all we know he may be counting the famous blunders of Minuscules 80 and 109, where a multi-column genealogy in Luke 3 was copied straight across, shuffling the generations like a deck of cards, as a set of dozens of “variants”. Nor does he compare the manuscript traditions of *the very works upon which he bases *his contention that the NT is historically unreliable.

By the way, have you read Ehrman’s revision of Metzger’s TNTITCR? cf. this review: goodreads.com/review/show/223245719 … says it all.
 
Oh, I didn’t get that interpretation at all when I read it.
I discerned that he was saying that of the aspects that he found that did not necessarily add up, a few were the very important ones…divinity, salvation, etc…
Well, then we’ll have to just disagree. I found his criticism on those counts to be rather weak…
 
Right, Mike, and “variant” isn’t even defined in context, so for all we know he may be counting the famous blunders of Minuscules 80 and 109, where a multi-column genealogy in Luke 3 was copied straight across, shuffling the generations like a deck of cards, as a set of dozens of “variants”. Nor does he compare the manuscript traditions of *the very works upon which he bases *his contention that the NT is historically unreliable.

By the way, have you read Ehrman’s revision of Metzger’s TNTITCR? cf. this review: goodreads.com/review/show/223245719 … says it all.
No, but I will probably have to because all the atheist wannabe-scholars will start quoting from it. Thanks for the heads up!
 
I was watching “QI” a British program mainly about dispelling common facts and talking about “quite interesting” ones. One of them was that historians have been unable to find evidence of the census of the Roman world mentioned in Luke only which called Mary and Joseph to Bethlehem, and commented on how it did not make sense that they had to go to their place of birth to register anyway. There is however evidence within Luke itself that he (Luke) was very keen to place Jesus with all the prophecies, so it was speculated on the show that the reason he wrote this was because it was important to place Jesus’ birth in Bethlehem, even if it wasn’t actually there.

Is this an important fact? Is it an accusation others have heard of before and is there a Church response to it? I am going to do my own research on this, but want to know what people on here think.
I am by no means an expert, however it is my understanding that the Roman empire had a census approximately 8 B.C. (lasting maybe until 7 or 6 B.C.). That means it lasted about 2 to 3 years.

The one that required Joseph to travel Bethlehem was only for Herod’s territory, so it was approximately in 7 or 6 B.C., not the one begun in 8 B.C. It required Joseph to register in Bethlehem and was a lesser census as it was only a census of Herod’s territory. This seems to comport with the fact that Herod the Great died in 4 B.C.

Censuses were rotated; some were covered larger areas, some were smaller census. This would not have involved as large a movement at any one single time if censuses were rotated, especially among the Jews who were resistant to be counted for tax purposes. So, a smaller census, covering a small area would lead to the least disruption, which would quell the possibility of a major uprising.

The confusion originates because of the translation that Quirinius was also governor of Syria. It also says it was a “first” census – maybe the first for Quirinius. In the original, the word used was not governor, but a ruling officer who was in charge of the census. It may be a mistranslation of the word governor, or a reference to Qurinius’ later status – not his status at the time of Jesus’ birth. Also, it may not be clear that there was a major census with minor ones rotating throughout the empire over a number of years.

In any case, there is support for the fact that there were many censuses that took place in years prior to Jesus birth and after his birth. Likely Jesus was born during a smaller census around 7 or 6 B.C. and covered only Judea and requiring Joseph to travel to Bethlehem – a lesser census of the one that historians seem to agree was begun in 8 B.C. Mary would not have been required to appear but, it is said, she opted to undertake the journey because she would not want to have given birth while Joseph was away.

The trip for Joseph and Mary would have been 80 miles.

comereason.org/bibl_cntr/con100.asp
 
You forget that illiteracy was probably 90 percent in Roman Israel, and how many scribes would there be in a place like Nazareth ? Biblical Nazareth was the size of a large modern parking lot. Finding a scribe when there was something to remember would be like finding a notary public in a hurry in a road-stop town. They had no choice but to commit things to their minds.

The remarkable fact is that NT scriptures began appearing within twenty years of the events transpiring, which AIUI is much faster than the norm for writings of events in that period.

Seventy years, if it was that long, is not that big a deal. Sure, most people who were in the census had since died. But everybody had grandparental anecdotes.

ICXC NIKA
 
Seventy years later still makes the census pretty tough to confirm firsthand if it wasn’t already reported on, tho…because so many people would have died already who would have remembered it? And perhaps the “Luke” pages were not immediately available to everyone, especially to the Jews who didn’t believe in him, to see it and confirm/refute.

Why did they wait so long to get it down on paper (or however they did it)? Something so important as the Messiah everyone had been waiting for…you’d think they’d have made sure of a way to get someone to jot down quotes, etc, immediately.
Was it so difficult at that time to do so? Or do scholars think words were written down earlier, and the pages were destroyed?
Maybe most people could not yet read or write.
 
All the Apostles/disciples all went back to Nazareth right away???!!??!!!
So, most of them were illiterate, right? (that’s one reason why it is believed they did not write any of the original Greek versions of writings? And few of the Aramaic ones?)
The reason that most all the NT writtings are 60 after Christ is because they were expecting his return anyday. It was not till they saw everyone was dying and Christ seemed to be on a different time table than they that need to write things down.
 
The reason that most all the NT writtings are 60 after Christ is because they were expecting his return anyday. It was not till they saw everyone was dying and Christ seemed to be on a different time table than they that need to write things down.
The Gospels are Historical

Year AD Event The Resurrection. The leaders of the Jews persecute the first Christians. Saul/Paul is converted. Matthew composes his Hebrew gospel/ liturgy in Palestine. Matthews gospel is translated into Greek. King Herod Agrippa executes the Apostle James the Great. Peter escapes and flees to Rome. The other apostles spread out from Palestine. **44** **King Herod Agrippa dies.** **49** **Jews and Christians expelled from Rome following riots.** Luke writes his gospel for the Gentiles, partly based on Matthews gospel.First of Pauls epistles; some influenced by Matthews gospel. Paul imprisoned by Romans. A copy of Matthew’s Gospel taken to India.
54 Nero becomes emperor. The Apostle James the Less, bishop of Jerusalem, killed by stoning. The Christians are expelled from the Temple. Luke completes his Acts of the Apostles. Paul asks Timothy to join him on a mission to Spain. Paul released from prison. Peter ordains Linus, Cletus and Clement as assistant bishops. Peter endorses Lukes gospel by using it in a series of talks.Mark issues a first transcript of Peters talks.Peter approves Marks transcript. Used as a Gospel.Lukes gospel published as an authorised gospel.Acts issued with the authorisation of Paul and Peter.John writes twenty chapters of his Gospel.
64 July Rome devastated by fire.
65 Spring
Nero commences persecution of Christians. Peter martyred. Linus replaces Peter as bishop of Rome. Mark issues second edition of Peter’s talks.
66 Jewish rebellion in Palestine. Paul goes to Spain.
68 early Jerusalem surrounded for first time by Romans. 68 June Suicide of Emperor Nero followed by civil strife. This leads to the Roman troops surrounding Jerusalem being withdrawn. Paul returns from Spain and visits Asia and Crete. Paul writes an epistle to the Hebrew Christians in Jerusalem. The Hebrew Christians flee from Jerusalem to Pella. Paul again imprisoned in Rome and then martyred.
69 Galba, Vitellius and Otho die trying to become emperors.
69
Vespasian becomes emperor and renews war in Palestine.
69
Romans surround Jerusalem for second time. Clement of Rome replies to Corinthians on behalf of Linus.
70 Aug Jerusalem, including its Temple, is destroyed. Linus dies (about 81). Cletus becomes bishop of Rome.
91 Domitian starts persecution. Cletus dies (about 92). Clement becomes bishop of Rome. Jewish leaders (about 96) hold a conference at Jamnia. Clement, bishop of Rome, exiled by Romans to the Crimea. John the Apostle (About 96) adds final chapter to his gospel. John the Apostle dies.
98 Trojan becomes emperor. About 101 Clement dies and Evaristus becomes bishop of Rome. About 130 Papias records that Mark wrote down Peter`s words. About 180 Ireneaus familiar with the Matthew-Luke-Mark sequence. About 200 First Latin translations (prologues). Matthew-John-Luke-Mark sequence. About 200 Clement of Alexandria says gospels of Matthew and Luke written first.
 
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