The CFs: SS or STC

[Koineman]

Irenaeus: Against Heresies, Book III, Chap. IV:

1. Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth: so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. For she is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account are we bound to avoid them, but to make choice of the things pertaining to the Church with the utmost diligence, and to lay hold of the tradition of the truth. For how stands the case? Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient Churches with which the apostles held constant intercourse, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question? For how should it be if the apostles themselves had not left us writings? Would it not be necessary, [in that case,] to follow the course of the tradition which they handed down to those to whom they did commit the Churches?

Since the apostles passed on everything about the truth of the faith to the church, there is no need to look for the truth anywhere else. Resorting to the oldest churches that the apostles interacted with, is the way to resolve disputes. If the apostles had not left behind writings that contained the truth, then it would be necessary to find out the tradition in the churches.

1. To which course many nations of those barbarians who believe in Christ do assent, having salvation written in their hearts by the Spirit, without paper or ink, and, carefully preserving the ancient tradition, believing in one God, the Creator of heaven and earth, and all things therein, by means of Christ Jesus, the Son of God; who, because of His surpassing love towards His creation, condescended to be born of the virgin, He Himself uniting man through Himself to God, and having suffered under Pontius Pilate, and rising again, and having been received up in splendour, shall come in glory, the Saviour of those who are saved, and the Judge of those who are judged, and sending into eternal fire those who transform the truth, and despise His Father and His advent. Those who, in the absence of written documents,4 have believed this faith, are barbarians, so far as regards our language; but as regards doctrine, manner, and tenor of life, they are, because of faith, very wise indeed; and they do please God, ordering their conversation in all righteousness, chastity, and wisdom. If any one were to preach to these men the inventions of the heretics, speaking to them in their own language, they would at once stop their ears, and flee as far off as possible, not enduring even to listen to the blasphemous address. Thus, by means of that ancient tradition of the apostles, they do not suffer their mind to conceive anything of the [doctrines suggested by the] portentous language of these teachers, among whom neither Church nor doctrine has ever been established.

Those who believe the truth without having read it on paper are wise, like the barbarians who believed in Christ. Even these barbarians would completely reject heretical teachings because of the apostolic traditions they have learned.

1. For, prior to Valentinus, those who follow Valentinus had no existence; nor did those from Marcion exist before Marcion; nor, in short, had any of those malignant-minded people, whom I have above enumerated, any being previous to the initiators and inventors of their perversity. For Valentinus came to Rome in the time of Hyginus, flourished under Pius, and remained until Anicetus. Cerdon, too, Marcion’s predecessor, himself arrived in the time of Hyginus, who was the ninth bishop. Coming frequently into the Church, and making public confession, he thus remained, one time teaching in secret, and then again making public confession; but at last, having been denounced for corrupt teaching, he was excommunicated6 from the assembly of the brethren. Marcion, then, succeeding him, flourished under Anicetus, who held the tenth place of the episcopate. But the rest, who are called Gnostics, take rise from Menander, Simon’s disciple, as I have shown; and each one of them appeared to be both the father and the high priest of that doctrine into which he has been initiated. But all these (the Marcosians) broke out into their apostasy much later, even during the intermediate period of the Church.

Heretics such as Valentinus and Marcion had no predecessors who held to their teachings and did not appear until at least the ninth bishop.

 

[Koineman]

Irenaeus: Against Heresies, Book III, Chap. V:

1. Since, therefore, the tradition from the apostles does thus exist in the Church, and is permanent among us, let us revert to the Scriprural proof furnished by those apostles who did also write the Gospel, in which they recorded the doctrine regarding God, pointing out that our Lord Jesus Christ is the truth, and that no lie is in Him. As also David says, prophesying His birth from a virgin, and the resurrection from the dead, “Truth has sprung out of the earth.”8 The apostles, likewise, being disciples of the truth, are above all falsehood; for a lie has no fellowship with the truth, just as darkness has none with light, but the presence of the one shuts out that of the other. Our Lord, therefore, being the truth, did not speak lies; and whom He knew to have taken origin from a defect, He never would have acknowledged as God, even the God of all, the Supreme King, too, and His own Father, an imperfect being as a perfect one, an animal one as a spiritual, Him who was without the Pleroma as Him who was within it. Neither did His disciples make mention of any other God, or term any other Lord, except Him, who was truly the God and Lord of all, as these most vain sophists affirm that the apostles did with hypocrisy frame their doctrine according to the capacity of their hearers, and gave answers after the opinions of their questioners,—fabling blind things for the blind, according to their blindness; for the dull according to their dulness; for those in error according to their error. And to those who imagined that the Demiurge alone was God, they preached him; but to those who are capable of comprehending the unnameable Father, they did declare the unspeakable mystery through parables and enigmas: so that the Lord and the apostles exercised the office of teacher not to further the cause of truth, but even in hypocrisy, and as each individual was able to receive it!

Irenaeus here objects to the tactic used by heretics when they taught that the apostles’ teaching about God sometimes changed from one audience to the next, as they (the apostles) sought to accommodate their teaching about God to the understanding of their hearers—even if that understanding was in error! Irenaeus says, however, that the disciples could not have done this since they were above falsehood and that truth has no fellowship with lies.

1. Such [a line of conduct] belongs not to those who heal, or who give life: it is rather that of those bringing on diseases, and increasing ignorance; and much more true than these men shall the law be found, which pronounces every one accursed who sends the blind man astray in the way. For the apostles, who were commissioned to find out the wanderers, and to be for sight to those who saw not, and medicine to the weak, certainly did not address them in accordance with their opinion at the time, but according to revealed truth. For no persons of any kind would act properly, if they should advise blind men, just about to fall over a precipice, to continue their most dangerous path, as if it were the right one, and as if they might go on in safety. Or what medical man, anxious to heal a sick person, would prescribe in accordance with the patient’s whims, and not according to the requisite medicine? But that the Lord came as the physician of the sick, He does Himself declare saying, “They that are whole need not a physician, but they that are sick; I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” How then shall the sick be strengthened, or how shall sinners come to repentance? Is it by persevering in the very same courses? or, on the contrary, is it by undergoing a great change and reversal of their former mode of living, by which they have brought upon themselves no slight amount of sickness, and many sins? But ignorance, the mother of all these, is driven out by knowledge. Wherefore the Lord used to impart knowledge to His disciples, by which also it was His practice to heal those who were suffering, and to keep back sinners from sin. He therefore did not address them in accordance with their pristine notions, nor did He reply to them in harmony with the opinion of His questioners, but according to the doctrine leading to salvation, without hypocrisy or respect of person.

The apostles would have been guilty of a terrible crime if they ever allowed blind people to continue on a dangerous path by teaching them error. That would be like a doctor giving a sick patient the medicine that he wants rather than the medicine he actually needs. On the contrary, they taught revealed truth, which drives out ignorance.

continued in next post…

 

[Koineman]

Irenaeus: Against Heresies, Book III, Chap. V, continued:

1. This is also made clear from the words of the Lord, who did truly reveal the Son of God to those of the circumcision—Him who had been foretold as Christ by the prophets; that is, He set Himself forth, who had restored liberty to men, and bestowed on them the inheritance of incorruption. And again, the apostles taught the Gentiles that they should leave vain stocks and stones, which they imagined to be gods, and worship the true God, who had created and made all the human family, and, by means of His creation, did nourish, increase, strengthen, and preserve them in being; and that they might look for His Son Jesus Christ, who redeemed us from apostasy with His own blood, so that we should also be a sanctified people,—who shall also descend from heaven in His Father’s power, and pass judgment upon all, and who shall freely give the good things of God to those who shall have kept His commandments. He, appearing in these last times, the chief cornerstone, has gathered into one, and united those that were far off and those that were near; that is, the circumcision and the uncircumcision, enlarging Japhet, and placing him in the dwelling of Shem.

Christ Himself revealed God truly to the Jews by setting Himself forth to them. Also, the apostles taught the Gentiles to turn away from idolatry to worship the true God and to look for Christ the Redeemer who will come from heaven to judge all people and give freely the good things of God to those who have kept His commandments.

 

[Fr_of_Jazz]

Irenaeus: Against Heresies, Book III, Chap. V, continued:

Christ Himself revealed God truly to the Jews by setting Himself forth to them. Also, the apostles taught the Gentiles to turn away from idolatry to worship the true God and to look for Christ the Redeemer who will come from heaven to judge all people and give freely the good things of God to those who have kept His commandments.

Hi Koineman,

I’m back up and running. I 've been given a new assignment and had a lot of moving and meetings.

So far your direct summations of the chapters in Adversus Haereses seem on the money as usual.

 

[Koineman]

Hey Fr,

I was wondering what happened to you. Hope everything is okay. I’ll post the next installment soon.

Jeremy

 

[thenobes]

I think Irenaeus makes it clear that both the oral and written versions are the same, but the written version was what he had then, at the time he wrote this text. He was writing after the apostles had all died, unless I’m mistaken. If that’s true, then he did not have the oral version any longer, since the apostles were no longer around to give the message orally. The apostles preached the complete gospel message orally at first, and that message was handed down to them in the Scriptures, namely, the four gospels, which he mentions by name, and which they currently have. At this point, that is what he is saying. We’ll see what else he says in later chapters. One chapter at a time.

I think that’s essentially what Pablope was saying, which I agreed with. The gospel itself is the pillar and foundation of the faith. But I would add that that gospel is now in the Scriptures, from the standpoint of Irenaeus. I’m only going by what he says in this particular passage. If he elaborates more so as to support the STC model, then so be it. I’m just going one passage at a time.

I plan to continue posting from Irenaeus, so we’ll see what we shall see.

Sorry to have returned to this at such a late date, but I haven’t had time to seriously study this thread until just now.

I think you are evading the line that ends: “…who indeed do all equally and individually possess the Gospel of God.” If this is true, it would also be true that as a whole they passed down the Gospel in their prayer and worship life.

Tradition is Gospel enscripturated in the life of the Church.

It’s not only oral vs written (in words). I’m sure that this will become clear in the succeeding excerpts from Irenaeus.

peace
steve

 

[Koineman]

Just a quick update: I’m currently reading the upcoming chapters of Irenaeus’ *Against Heresies *to see if there are any more texts that deal with our issue in particular.

Jeremy

 

[Koineman]

I’ve been reading ahead in Irenaeus’ Against Heresies, and I came across this interesting point in Book III, Chapter XXIV about the necessity of being joined to the church:

“For in the Church,” it is said, “God hath set apostles, prophets, teachers,” and all the other means through which the Spirit works; of which all those are not partakers who do not join themselves to the Church, but defraud themselves of life through their perverse opinions and infamous behaviour. For where the Church is, there is the Spirit of God; and where the Spirit of God is, there is the Church, and every kind of grace; but the Spirit is truth. Those, therefore, who do not partake of Him, are neither nourished into life from the mother’s breasts, nor do they enjoy that most limpid fountain which issues from the body of Christ; but they dig for themselves broken cisterns11 out of earthly trenches, and drink putrid water out of the mire, fleeing from the faith of the Church lest they be convicted; and rejecting the Spirit, that they may not be instructed.

This certainly shows that Irenaeus had a high view of the church and that it was necessary to be joined to it in order to know the truth.

 

[Fr_of_Jazz]

I’ve been reading ahead in Irenaeus’ Against Heresies, and I came across this interesting point in Book III, Chapter XXIV about the necessity of being joined to the church:

This certainly shows that Irenaeus had a high view of the church and that it was necessary to be joined to it in order to know the truth.

Agreed. Also, this theme continues in Books IV ad V.

 

[Koineman]

Irenaeus: Against Heresies, Book IV, Chap. xxvi:

1. If any one, therefore, reads the Scriptures with attention, he will find in them an account of Christ, and a foreshadowing of the new calling (vocationis). For Christ is the treasure which was hid in the field, that is, in this world (for “the field is the world”9); but the treasure hid in the Scriptures is Christ, since He was pointed out by means of types and parables. Hence His human nature could not be understood, prior to the consummation of those things which had been predicted, that is, the advent of Christ. And therefore it was said to Daniel the prophet: “Shut up the words, and seal the book even to the time of consummation, until many learn, and knowledge be completed. For at that time, when the dispersion shall be accomplished, they shall know all these things.”11 But Jeremiah also says, “In the last days they shall understand these things.” For every prophecy, before its fulfilment, is to men [full of] enigmas and ambiguities. But when the time has arrived, and the prediction has come to pass, then the prophecies have a clear and certain exposition. And for this reason, indeed, when at this present time the law is read to the Jews, it is like a fable; for they do not possess the explanation of all things pertaining to the advent of the Son of God, which took place in human nature; but when it is read by the Christians, it is a treasure, hid indeed in a field, but brought to light by the cross of Christ, and explained, both enriching the understanding of men, and showing forth the wisdom of God and declaring His dispensations with regard to man, and forming the kingdom of Christ beforehand, and preaching by anticipation the inheritance of the holy Jerusalem, and proclaiming beforehand that the man who loves God shall arrive at such excellency as even to see God, and hear His word, and from the hearing of His discourse be glorified to such an extent, that others cannot behold the glory of his countenance, as was said by Daniel: “Those who do understand, shall shine as the brightness of the firmament, and many of the righteous as the stars for ever and ever.”2 Thus, then, I have shown it to be, if any one read the Scriptures. For thus it was that the Lord discoursed with the disciples after His resurrection from the dead, proving to them from the Scriptures themselves “that Christ must suffer, and enter into His glory, and that remission of sins should be preached in His name throughout all the world.”4 And the disciple will be perfected, and [rendered] like the householder, “who bringeth forth from his treasure things new and old.”

1. Wherefore it is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are in the Church,—those who, as I have shown, possess the succession from the apostles; those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the certain gift of truth, according to the good pleasure of the Father. But [it is also incumbent] to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession, and assemble themselves together in any place whatsoever, [looking upon them] either as heretics of perverse minds, or as schismatics puffed up and self-pleasing, or again as hypocrites, acting thus for the sake of lucre and vainglory. For all these have fallen from the truth. And the heretics, indeed, who bring strange fire to the altar of God—namely, strange doctrines—shall be burned up by the fire from heaven, as were Nadab and Abiud. But such as rise up in opposition to the truth, and exhort others against the Church of God, [shall] remain among those in hell (apud inferos), being swallowed up by an earthquake, even as those who were with Chore, Dathan, and Abiron. But those who cleave asunder, and separate the unity of the Church, [shall] receive from God the same punishment as Jeroboam did.

One can learn about Christ by “read[ing] the Scriptures with attention.” This is not sola scriptura, but there does seem to be a point that one can learn clearly from the Scriptures what is necessary for salvation (truths about Christ) if it is done carefully. This also does not detract from the need to submit to the teaching of the church, as he goes on to say.

The prophecies about Christ in the Old Testament make sense only in the light of Christ’s coming into the world. Before a prophecy is fulfilled, it is difficult to understand, but when it is fulfilled, it is clear. Thus, Christians understand that the Old Testament Scriptures are speaking of Christ, and so the Scriptures are a treasure to them.

As Christ explained the Scriptures to the disciples, so that they could become teachers themselves, so also Christians learn from the church, and for that reason the elders in the church should be obeyed—those who are in the line of succession from the apostles and who have the gift of truth. All those who are heretics, schismatics who are prideful, or hypocrites who are interested only in making money and being admired, have fallen from the truth. Those who teach strange doctrines shall be punished in hell, as will be those who create disunity in the church.

continued in next post …

 

[Koineman]

Against Heresies, Book IV, Chap. xxvi, continued:

1. Those, however, who are believed to be presbyters by many, but serve their own lusts, and do not place the fear of God supreme in their hearts, but conduct themselves with contempt towards others, and are puffed up with the pride of holding the chief seat, and work evil deeds in secret, saying, “No man sees us,” shall be convicted by the Word, who does not judge after outward appearance (secundum gloriam), nor looks upon the countenance, but the heart; and they shall hear those words, to be found in Daniel the prophet: “O thou seed of Canaan, and not of Judah, beauty hath deceived thee, and lust perverted thy heart. Thou that art waxen old in wicked days, now thy sins which thou hast committed aforetime are come to light; for thou hast pronounced false judgments, and hast been accustomed to condemn the innocent, and to let the guilty go free, albeit the Lord saith, The innocent and the righteous shalt thou not slay.”10 Of whom also did the Lord say: “But if the evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming, and shall begin to smite the man-servants and maidens, and to eat and drink and be drunken; the lord of that servant shall come in a day that he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, and shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.”

1. From all such persons, therefore, it behoves us to keep aloof, but to adhere to those who, as I have already observed, do hold the doctrine of the apostles, and who, together with the order of priesthood (presbyterii ordine), display sound speech and blameless conduct for the confirmation and correction of others. …

1. Such presbyters does the Church nourish, of whom also the prophet says: “I will give thy rulers in peace, and thy bishops in righteousness.” Of whom also did the Lord declare, “Who then shall be a faithful steward (actor), good and wise, whom the Lord sets over His household, to give them their meat in due season? Blessed is that servant whom his Lord, when He cometh, shall find so doing.” Paul then, teaching us where one may find such, says, “God hath placed in the Church, first, apostles; secondly, prophets; thirdly, teachers.”6 Where, therefore, the gifts of the Lord have been placed, there it behoves us to learn the truth, [namely,] from those who possess that succession of the Church which is from the apostles, and among whom exists that which is sound and blameless in conduct, as well as that which is unadulterated and incorrupt in speech. For these also preserve this faith of ours in one God who created all things; and they increase that love [which we have] for the Son of God, who accomplished such marvellous dispensations for our sake: and they expound the Scriptures to us without danger, neither blaspheming God, nor dishonouring the patriarchs, nor despising the prophets.

Those leaders who are self-seeking, prideful, and don’t fear God, shall suffer the same fate as unbelievers. These people should be avoided, but those who hold the doctrine of the apostles and are sound in their speech and behavior should be followed. Since God gave these men as gifts to the church, we should learn from them, from those who are in the line of succession from the apostles and who are blameless in conduct and pure in speech. Irenaeus thus holds up two things as necessary for presbyters to be followed: 1) succession from the apostles and 2) blamelessness and purity of life.

 

[Fr_of_Jazz]

Against Heresies, Book IV, Chap. xxvi, continued:

Those leaders who are self-seeking, prideful, and don’t fear God, shall suffer the same fate as unbelievers. These people should be avoided, but those who hold the doctrine of the apostles and are sound in their speech and behavior should be followed. Since God gave these men as gifts to the church, we should learn from them, from those who are in the line of succession from the apostles and who are blameless in conduct and pure in speech. Irenaeus thus holds up two things as necessary for presbyters to be followed: 1) succession from the apostles and 2) blamelessness and purity of life.

Thanks Koineman. Both sound good.

 

[Koineman]

I skipped ahead to a point where Irenaeus again addresses the connection between the church and Scripture:

Irenaeus: Against Heresies, Book IV, XXXIII.8
True knowledge is [that which consists in] the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution5 of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved,7 without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]; and [it consists in] reading [the word of God] without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy; and [above all, it consists in] the pre-eminent gift of love,9 which is more precious than knowledge, more glorious than prophecy, and which excels all the other gifts [of God].

Irenaeus says here that true knowledge—which he probably means to be truth as opposed to the false knowledge of the heretics he has been writing against—is in the apostles’ doctrine, the ancient “constitution” of the church (my edition says that the Latin for “constitution” is “status”), and the body of Christ as found in the succession of bishops. Through this succession, the church that now exists has been handed down, guarded and preserved, by a complete doctrinal system, without adding or detracting anything from it. The truth also consists in reading the word of God without falsifying it as well as exposition that lines up with the Scriptures. Finally, true knowledge consists in love.

 

[Fr_of_Jazz]

I skipped ahead to a point where Irenaeus again addresses the connection between the church and Scripture:

Irenaeus says here that true knowledge—which he probably means to be truth as opposed to the false knowledge of the heretics he has been writing against—is in the apostles’ doctrine, the ancient “constitution” of the church (my edition says that the Latin for “constitution” is “status”), and the body of Christ as found in the succession of bishops. Through this succession, the church that now exists has been handed down, guarded and preserved, by a complete doctrinal system, without adding or detracting anything from it. The truth also consists in reading the word of God without falsifying it as well as exposition that lines up with the Scriptures. Finally, true knowledge consists in love.

Good summary!

Although it is a short repetition of material covered before, I would factor in a passage just prior to the one you discuss:
“And then shall every word also seem consistent to him, if he for his part diligently read the Scriptures in company with those who are presbyters in the Church, among whom is the apostolic doctrine, as I have pointed out.”
Adversus Haereses, IV, 32, 1]

 

[Koineman]

Fr of Jazz,

I’m currently looking more into Irenaeus, but if you can think of some other CF that addressed our topic, feel free to post.

Jeremy

 

[Fr_of_Jazz]

Fr of Jazz,

I’m currently looking more into Irenaeus, but if you can think of some other CF that addressed our topic, feel free to post.

Jeremy

Sure. I’ll start under OP. I’m thinking Clement of Alexandria since he’s the same era as Tertullian and Irenaeus.

So we’ll by doing both then I guess. When we finish Ireneaus we should assess where he stands in relation to our question/topic.

 

[Fr_of_Jazz]

Clement of Alexandria’s work Stromata addresses the question of the relation of Christian teaching to secular (Greek) learning. In this process he discusses the transmission of learning and culture in general and leads into the transmission of the faith.

I am excerpting, but, I believe, fairly. Please correct if necessary.

[1] It is a good thing, I reckon, to leave to posterity good children. This is the case with children of our bodies. But words are the progeny of the soul. Hence we call those who have instructed us, fathers. Wisdom is a communicative and philanthropic thing. Accordingly, Solomon says, “My son, if you receive the saying of my commandment, and hide it with you, your ear shall hear wisdom.” (Prv 2:1-2) He points out that the word that is sown is hidden in the soul of the learner, as in the earth, and this is spiritual planting. Wherefore also he adds, “And you shall apply your heart to understanding, and apply it for the admonition of your son.” For soul, methinks, joined with soul, and spirit with spirit, in the sowing of the word, will make that which is sown grow and germinate. And every one who is instructed, is in respect of subjection the son of his instructor. “Son,” says he, “forget not my laws.” (Prv 3:1)
[2] And if knowledge belong not to all (set an a - - [donkey] to the lyre, as the proverb goes), yet written compositions are for the many. . . .
[3] If, then, both proclaim the Word–the one by writing, the other by speech–are not both then to be approved, making, as they do, faith active by love? It is by one’s own fault that he does not choose what is best; God is free of blame. . . .
[6] But the husbandry is twofold,–the one unwritten, and the other written. And in whatever way the Lord’s labourer sow the good wheat, and grow and reap the ears, he shall appear a truly divine husbandman. . . .
[8] Now the Scripture kindles the living spark of the soul, and directs the eye suitably for contemplation; perchance inserting something, as the husbandman when he ingrafts, but, according to the opinion of the divine apostle, exciting what is in the soul. . . .
[11] Those masters who preserve the true tradition of the glorious teaching derived in a straight line from the holy apostles Peter, James, John and Paul, transmitted from father to son–though few of the sons are of the stature of the fathers–have come down even to us, by God’s grace, to plant in us these glorious seeds of their forebears and of the apostles.
[St. Clement of Alexandria, *Stromata

I, 1, 1-11] ~150-215 AD

Clement notes that both learning and culture are transmitted by word (orally is his meaning) and writing. This is also the case with the faith–the proclaimation of the word. This gives the Christian a twofold “husbandry.” Scripture enkindles the soul with the spark of divine learning while at the same time those “masters” (presumably bishops as successors of the apostles and other acknowledged earlier teachers) transmit and implant via tradition the seeds of the apostles.

 

[Koineman]

Sure. I’ll start under OP. I’m thinking Clement of Alexandria since he’s the same era as Tertullian and Irenaeus.

So we’ll by doing both then I guess. When we finish Ireneaus we should assess where he stands in relation to our question/topic.

Okay, sounds good. I still haven’t figured out how to post under the OP.

I’ll keep reading ahead in Irenaeus to see if anything else relevant comes up.

 

[Fr_of_Jazz]

Okay, sounds good. I still haven’t figured out how to post under the OP.

Where the individual posts show on the right there is an item that reads “Display.” Click that and in the drop down menu click “Switch to Threaded Mode.” This display mode traces all the responses to their origin.

 

[Fr_of_Jazz]

As, then, if a man should, similarly to those drugged by Circe, become a beast; so he, who has spurned the ecclesiastical tradition, and darted off to the opinions of heretical men, has ceased to be a man of God and to remain faithful to the Lord. But he who has returned from this deception, on hearing the Scriptures, and turned his life to the truth, is, as it were, from being a man made a god.
. . . .
And if those also who follow heresies venture to avail themselves of the prophetic Scriptures; in the first place they will not make use of all the Scriptures, and then they will not quote them entire, nor as the body and texture of prophecy prescribe. But, selecting ambiguous expressions, they wrest them to their own opinions, gathering a few expressions here and there; not looking to the sense, but making use of the mere words. For in almost all the quotations they make, you will find that they attend to the names alone, while they alter the meanings; neither knowing, as they affirm, nor using the quotations they adduce, according to their true nature.
. . . .
For, in consequence of not learning the mysteries of ecclesiastical knowledge, and not having capacity for the grandeur of the truth, too indolent to descend to the bottom of things, reading superficially, they have dismissed the Scriptures.
. . . .
But if one is curable, able to bear (like fire or steel) the outspokenness of the truth, which cuts away and burns their false opinions, let him lend the ears of the soul. And this will be the case, unless, through the propensity to sloth, they push truth away, or through the desire of fame, endeavour to invent novelties. For those are slothful who, having it in their power to provide themselves with proper proofs for the divine Scriptures from the Scriptures themselves, select only what contributes to their own pleasures. And those have a craving for glory who voluntarily evade, by arguments of a diverse sort, the things delivered by the blessed apostles and teachers, which are wedded to inspired words; opposing the divine tradition by human teachings, in order to establish the heresy. For, in truth, what remained to be said–in ecclesiastical knowledge I mean–by such men, Marcion, for example, or Prodicus, and such like, who did not walk in the right way? For they could not have surpassed their predecessors in wisdom, so as to discover anything in addition to what had been uttered by them; for they would have been satisfied had they been able to learn the things laid down before.

Our gnostic [the orthodox Christian] having grown old in the Scriptures, and maintaining apostolic and ecclesiastic orthodoxy in doctrines, lives most correctly in accordance with the Gospel, and discovers the proofs, for which he may have made search (sent forth as he is by the Lord), from the law and the prophets . . . nothing but deeds and words corresponding to the tradition of the Lord.”
[St. Clement of Alexandria, *Stromata

VII, 16]

Clement continues to stress the interplay of Scripture, Tradition and Church in handing on the true knowledge of God, and that the heretics (like Marcion) are those who have departed from them.