The Charismatic Episcopal Church

[Matariel]

I was wondering if anyone has experience or knows abou the Charismatic Episcopal Church. From what I’ve gathered, they do have apostolic succession and sacramental understanding, and adhere to ancient Christian tradition, but also have Charismatic tendencies. There are some interesting photos on *cechome.com/?p=266 *(Sorry, don’t know how to link). I was also wondering whether they dilluted their succession with women “priests” or if their lines have remained pure, as well as just how “Charismatic” they tend to be, and their relationship with other Churches of apostolic origin (i.e, Roman, Orthodox, Anglican, Coptic). Does anyone know much of them?

 

[emeraldcoast]

I was wondering if anyone has experience or knows abou the Charismatic Episcopal Church. From what I’ve gathered, they do have apostolic succession and sacramental understanding, and adhere to ancient Christian tradition, but also have Charismatic tendencies. There are some interesting photos on cechome.com/?p=266 (Sorry, don’t know how to link). I was also wondering whether they dilluted their succession with women “priests” or if their lines have remained pure, as well as just how “Charismatic” they tend to be, and their relationship with other Churches of apostolic origin (i.e, Roman, Orthodox, Anglican, Coptic). Does anyone know much of them?

From the above link…

“The Charismatic Episcopal Church is not and has never been affiliated with the Episcopal Church USA or the Anglican Communion.”

 

[GKC]

I was wondering if anyone has experience or knows abou the Charismatic Episcopal Church. From what I’ve gathered, they do have apostolic succession and sacramental understanding, and adhere to ancient Christian tradition, but also have Charismatic tendencies. There are some interesting photos on cechome.com/?p=266 (Sorry, don’t know how to link). I was also wondering whether they dilluted their succession with women “priests” or if their lines have remained pure, as well as just how “Charismatic” they tend to be, and their relationship with other Churches of apostolic origin (i.e, Roman, Orthodox, Anglican, Coptic). Does anyone know much of them?

There was a gentleman and scholar who used to post here, who could address all this in detail. Alas, I haven’t seen him around for a long while.

GKC

 

[Matariel]

There was a gentleman and scholar who used to post here, who could address all this in detail. Alas, I haven’t seen him around for a long while.

GKC

Oh, that’s too bad. I was wondering how big they are, and if anyone here knows any Charismatic Episcopalians, or there central doctrines.

 

[emeraldcoast]

I hope this helps answer your questions…

iccec.org/about.html

About us
We are men and women of faith gathered from diverse backgrounds, seeking an expression of the church that is fully sacramental-liturgical, evangelical and charismatic. We are a church that is submitted to the authority of scripture, as interpreted by the continuing witness of the ancient church, and governed by consensus. Our worship is biblical, liturgical and Spirit filled, ancient and contemporary, holy and joyful. We are committed to advancing God’s kingdom by proclaiming the Gospel to the least, the lost, and the lonely.

The International Communion of the Charismatic Episcopal Church is not, and has never been, affiliated with the Episcopal Church USA or the Anglician Communion

iccec.org/beliefs.html

We Believe…
~that the Holy Scriptures are the final authority on all matters of faith, doctrine and practice. Where Scripture does not speak clearly, we defer to apostolic tradition.

~and indisputable summary of the Christian faith.
that we are saved by grace, through faith in the atoning work of Jesus Christ

~that the Sacraments of the Church impart the grace of God
that the Holy Spirit is at work today through spiritual gifts and signs given to the Church

 

[Matariel]

Thank you Emeraldcoast, I am curretnly searching for what they have to say of female “ordination”.

 

[Matariel]

Thank you Emeraldcoast, I am currently searching for what they have to say of female “ordination”.

 

[GKC]

Oh, that’s too bad. I was wondering how big they are, and if anyone here knows any Charismatic Episcopalians, or there central doctrines.

The genetleman of whom I speak was a CEC priest, possessed a Phd, and knew everything there is to know about the Church. Maybe I can email him; we were friends.

He’s RC now.

GKC

 

[GKC]

Thank you Emeraldcoast, I am currently searching for what they have to say of female “ordination”.

To the best of my knowledge, they’re agin it.

GKC

 

[Florida]

As a member of the Charismatic Episcopal Church, I have been asked to respond to a recent inquiry on this forum regarding our position on the ordination of women. I am happy to do so. We do not ordain woman to any of the three historic orders of ordained ministry.

Florida CEC

 

[Matariel]

As a member of the Charismatic Episcopal Church, I have been asked to respond to a recent inquiry on this forum regarding our position on the ordination of women. I am happy to do so. We do not ordain woman to any of the three historic orders of ordained ministry.

Florida CEC

Oh, that’s wonderful. They haven’t discarded or diluted their Apostolic Succession.

 

[GKC]

As a member of the Charismatic Episcopal Church, I have been asked to respond to a recent inquiry on this forum regarding our position on the ordination of women. I am happy to do so. We do not ordain woman to any of the three historic orders of ordained ministry.

Florida CEC

As I remembered.

GKC

 

[maesb60]

What would the status of the CEC be considered from the perspective of the Catholic church? Were the founding bishops ex-communicated? Is it considered schismatic? Is it in an undecided state, still being adjudicated? Is it more like the eastern orthodox churches at this point, with a form of valid orders but not properly part of the ‘one’ church? I’m just trying to understand how it works when the occasional bishop separates from the church, as has happened in various cases pretty much since the beginning and continuing through modern times.

Thanks to whomever is able to respond.

BTW, we have a CEC locally and the pastor would easily pass for an orthodox RC priest (perhaps even more orthodox than 50% of RC priests). The liturgy also seems rather orthodox, although I’ve never personally attended. Why he is not/has not been ordained RC, I think the bishop who ordained him was a former RC bishop.

 

[chris_molter]

I was wondering if anyone has experience or knows abou the Charismatic Episcopal Church. From what I’ve gathered, they do have apostolic succession and sacramental understanding, and adhere to ancient Christian tradition, but also have Charismatic tendencies.

I don’t know if this needs to be said, but the Catholic Church (and the Orthodox AFAIK) does not recognize their apostolic succession any more than it recognizes TEC or C of E’s succession.

 

[Contarini]

Chris,

Are you sure about this? I know that there has been no official recognition. But the CEC’s orders come not from Anglicanism but from Old Catholicism. The Catholic Church does recognize Old Catholic orders, so from a Catholic perspective the CEC’s orders may be valid as well.

As to women’s ordination, I think they have female deacons, but I may be wrong. They do not ordain women as priests, I’m quite sure.

The CEC has gone through a huge crisis in recent years. I think the tension between their Catholic and charismatic emphases may have been part of the cause for the split. But whatever the reasons, many bishops and local parishes have left–the former CEC parish in my town is now seeking affiliation with the Anglican Mission in America.

Edwin

 

[chris_molter]

Chris,

Are you sure about this? I know that there has been no official recognition. But the CEC’s orders come not from Anglicanism but from Old Catholicism. The Catholic Church does recognize Old Catholic orders, so from a Catholic perspective the CEC’s orders may be valid as well.

Edwin

Edwin,

I believe you are correct and I was mistaken in thinking CEC was from ECUSA lines. It appears they fall into that murky gray area where there “may be” validity and Rome hasn’t ruled definitively one way or the other.

Very good background stuff from “Irish Melkite” here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=68727

A story about a CEC parish 'doxing:
fatherstephen.wordpress.com/2007/07/09/charismatic-episcopal-church-congregation-and-clergy-to-be-received-into-holy-orthodoxy/

a VERY long thread with some interesting commentary by laypeople and clergy from CEC (2006):

blog.ancient-future.net/2006/06/16/whats-up-with-the-charismatic-episcopal-church/

 

[chris_molter]

Chris,

Are you sure about this? I know that there has been no official recognition. But the CEC’s orders come not from Anglicanism but from Old Catholicism. The Catholic Church does recognize Old Catholic orders, so from a Catholic perspective the CEC’s orders may be valid as well.

Edwin

Edwin,

It looks like you’re right and I was mistaken re: the origin of CEC’s orders. Although the questionably valid orders come later in CEC’s history (1998), it looks like CEC falls into that murky grey area where there *may *be valid but illicit orders and Rome hasn’t ruled definitively.

Here’s good background info from “Irish Melkite”
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=68727

An interesting story about a CEC parish “doxing”
fatherstephen.wordpress.com/2007/07/09/charismatic-episcopal-church-congregation-and-clergy-to-be-received-into-holy-orthodoxy/

And a loooong commentary with current and former CEC laity and clergy from 2006:
blog.ancient-future.net/2006/06/16/whats-up-with-the-charismatic-episcopal-church/

 

[Matariel]

I don’t know if this needs to be said, but the Catholic Church (and the Orthodox AFAIK) does not recognize their apostolic succession any more than it recognizes TEC or C of E’s succession.

You’re mistaken, about Anglican Orders. Apostolicae Curae was issued long before the re-ordination of Anglican clergy in the 30’s which re-validated their orders from a Catholic viewpoint, with Old Catholic bishops participating in all their ordinations. So technically, the Anglican Orders (minus the invalid “female ordinations”) are a gray area, just like the Charismatic Episcopal Church. The Orthodox recognized the validity of Anglican Orders up until they began ordaining women in some areas of the Anglican Communion.

However, traditional Anglicans who maintain Apostolic Succession and do not ordain women are valid, but a gray area technically, since the Church has not yet acknowledged the re-validation that occured in the 30’s.

 

[Tina_in_Ashburn]

Anglican ordinations are NOT valid, neither are Episcopalian.

The Orthodox ordinations are.

This is why Roman Catholics, in times of emergency, can approach Orthodox sacraments, but those of Anglican and Episcopalian are not considered valid or licit.

Anglican orders are NOT “murky”. At the time of the founding of the Church of England, the wording of the ordination was changed and the succession of Peter was broken when they left the True Church, thus the Catholic Church declared these ordinations invalid.

This declaration was later challenged and a later Pope * published a definitive document specifying why exactly these ordinations are false.

If CEC ordinations were valid, then the Roman Catholic Church would not be re-ordaining any who become Catholic priests.*

 

[GKC]

You’re mistaken, about Anglican Orders. Apostolicae Curae was issued long before the re-ordination of Anglican clergy in the 30’s which re-validated their orders from a Catholic viewpoint, with Old Catholic bishops participating in all their ordinations. So technically, the Anglican Orders (minus the invalid “female ordinations”) are a gray area, just like the Charismatic Episcopal Church. The Orthodox recognized the validity of Anglican Orders up until they began ordaining women in some areas of the Anglican Communion.

However, traditional Anglicans who maintain Apostolic Succession and do not ordain women are valid, but a gray area technically, since the Church has not yet acknowledged the re-validation that occured in the 30’s.

And there is a mistake or two in here. There has not been, and can not be, a thing called re-ordination (or revalidation), of anyone. Ordination, and consecration, imprints an indelible character; it cannot be done twice, any more than baptism can. Hence the form of ordination (rarely used) called sub conditione. What started, in 1932, between the Anglican Communion, and the Old Catholics of Utrecht, was intercommunion, expressed in this sense in participation of OC bishops in the consecration, ab initio, of Anglican bishops, beginning with OC Bishop van Vlijmne bing a co-consecrator with the Archbishop of Canterbury, of George Francis Graham-Brown, Anglican Bishop in Jerusalem, and Bertram Fitzgerald Simpson, Anglican Bishop of Kensington. This first infused (logically) the episcopal lines of the OCs into Anglicanism, where they are transfered, hence forward (we shall ignore the issue of proper matter, and females, for this discussion). The same thing began with respect to Anglicans and the PNCC, in 1946. Logically, then, this is an infusion of valid, though illicit (in Rome’s eyes) episcopal lines, which permeate Anglicanism, at this time.

The issue of the Orthodox attitude is a little more complex. I’m aware of the opinions of the 4 Patriarchs rendered back around 80 years ago, but I think they were actually making the Cyprianic distinction about Anglican orders that Orthodox usually make about Roman orders; that they are not invalid, but empty, and capable of being made fully operative, if they are brought into communion with the real Church.

GKC