The Charismatic Movement and Glossolalia

[sauce]

My wife and I were “born again”, and experienced the “baptism of the Holy Spirit” as evidenced by speaking in tongues, through the Catholic Charismatic Renewal in the early 1970’s. We were not Catholics, but we were seeking God. We met Him in the basement of a Catholic Church that was filled to overflowing, standing room only, every Tuesday and Thursday nights. Overflowing means 200 plus people. All praising God, singing songs, speaking in tongues,etc.our numbers were added to ,literally, daily. We saw healings; my son had been born with such flat feet that he could not run w/o falling. He was prayed over, and a few days later he complained of shoe pain. His doctor said;"why do you have him in those Thomas healed shoes?’ We said, “because you said he had the worst flat feet you ever saw” The doc looked at the record and said “you are right, I did say that. But look! that is most beautiful arch I’ve seen on feet! Thrrow away those shoes!, get him into soft shoes”
Because we all operated in expectant faith that what God said in His Word He meant, we expected,and received, many miracles. It’s a long, wonderful story

I TOTALLY BELIEVE YOU AND REJOICE WITH YOU.

Thank God you found this power alive and well in the Catholic Church. We get beat up all the time. When God’s Glory manifests, it changes everything. Ask the guards
at Jesus’s tomb. They couldn’t stand up. Body energy fades away.

I’m sure we haven’t seen all the possible manifestations. The dogs barking stuff is not
out of the question either. I heard it is connected to OT scripture when the dogs barked
because of disobedient priestly leaders. Does this sound so
unfamiliar today? Of course the leaders wouldn’t like that.
But I wouldn’t toss it out the window as a possibility. We must find these examples in scripture,

Regards

sauce

 

[kenis]

As a result of the first pentacost 3000 were baptised. Baptism incorporates one into the body of Christ. Tongues means languages and was a gift given to the early church to spread the word of God. The people heard the word in there own language and were baptised. We are sealed with the holy spirit at baptism. That babeling stuff has nothing to do with christianity. Tongues was also a sign of the universality of the Church. The church today still speaks in many languages.

 

[DorianGregorian]

Please don’t believe these unfair and untrue charges. Catholics involved in Charismatic Renewal tend to be faithful, orthodox (even conservative), and very involved in parish life – the very opposite of the separatists who form “sects.” They do not deny the role of reason in the spiritual life, but they do uphold the role of the supernatural, as do all orthodox Catholics. The poster who made these accusations is acting in an ignorant and un-Christian manner. There are millions of Catholics who are now or who in the past were involved in Charismatic Renewal – I’m one of them, as was Cardinal Suenens of Belgium, several U.S. bishops, and thousands of priests. I’m sure that a few of them are bad eggs, but to level these charges against charismatic renewal as a whole is truly irresponsible.

Glossolalia (speaking in tongues) is well-attested in the New Testament (especially I Corinthians) and continued to be practiced in the early church, although it became less prominent in time, perhaps as a result of the suppression of the Montanist heresy.

I think your Pentecostal friend is trying to squeeze out too much meaning from the passage from John’s gospel. There is no New Testament text that says that speaking in tongues is a necessary sign of the presence of the Holy Spirit in the life of a believer. However, there is plenty of evidence in the New Testament (e.g., Acts) that it was considered normal for the coming of the spirit to a believe to be accompanied by discernible signs of some sort, such as tongues and prophecy. That being said, documents from Charismatic Renewal repeatedly stressed that the Holy Spirit comes in fullness to any person who believes and is baptized. So-called “baptism in the Spirit” was seen as a “release” or “activation” of the Spirit already present in the life of a baptized Christian.

Sad that you have to use personal insults. Most intelligent arguments aren’t an argumentum ad hominem, so I will simply point out this was a rather childish thing to do, and will address your points with facts.

Here are several videos of the Charismatic movement:
youtube.com/watch?v=uJsEHY___Qg
youtube.com/watch?v=G0YiTU4cFfk
youtube.com/watch?v=VTyFMxzYj30
youtube.com/watch?v=nJKFMEM2ODw
youtube.com/watch?v=Nh-MycQkuDc
youtube.com/watch?v=_WiB3EmDgpI

All of this looks dangerously close to a Protestant movement. Dancing and screaming in front of the Blessed Sacrament? I can assure you that none of the Fathers would consider that respecting the Blessed Sacrament, he would hope “That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth.” (Philemon 2:10)

Again we are told that the Apostles were able to speak in tounges. However the Apostles were Bishops not laymen. Also when the Apostles spoke in tounges in the book of Acts, they had a utilitarian purpose (Acts 2:8), spreading the Gospel to peoples of different tounges (Acts 2:8) . And also remember that all the people understood them as they spoke (Acts 2:11).

I notice you make several claims in the regarding the book of Acts, when you cite a passage in the Bible, you should provide the verse.

Speaking in tounges generally fell out of use by the Middle Ages, because it was no longer necessary as enough people of different languages knew the Gospel. This practice was revived during the Wesleyan movement, and is prevalent in Baptist and Pentecostal ‘churches.’

And on your claim of Baptism of the Spirit being a release or activation of something already present is incorrect in Catholic teaching. The Holy Spirit came upon the disciples and their abilities came from the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4) not from some sort of “inner potential.”

I do not agree with everything Bishop Williamson says, but he gives a very nice sermon on how the Charismatic movement has modernist tendencies. youtube.com/watch?v=3L2bf18Hatg

It is really in accord with the teachings of St. Aquinas. God is known through reason, through evidence, through rational thinking. Not from within man’s feelings and sentiments.

I took a class with a Professor and he said that there are many people who “love” the Bible but have never read it. He could never understand how. This man had a Ph.D.

Laus Deo

 

[Omyo12]

As a result of the first pentacost 3000 were baptised. Baptism incorporates one into the body of Christ. Tongues means languages and was a gift given to the early church to spread the word of God. The people heard the word in there own language and were baptised. We are sealed with the holy spirit at baptism. That babeling stuff has nothing to do with christianity. Tongues was also a sign of the universality of the Church. The church today still speaks in many languages.

While I’m not ruling out the possibility that people can speak in tongues, I think a lot of times its just group think.

Since it’s a “heavenly” language and other people can’t understand it. Sometimes people think they have it and speak in “tongues” and think its real when it’s just in their heads.

It was not considered orthodox until the modern Pentecostal movement.

However, some early Church Fathers did record instances if it happening (like Justin Martyr and St. Irenaeus).

However, St. Tertullian only wrote about different languages by the Spirit.

Many of the later Church Fathers (like St. Augustine) believed it was only in the early years of the Church and was lost since the Gospel was complete and already spreading.

In the earliest times, “the Holy Ghost fell upon them that believed: and they spake with tongues”, which they had not learned, “as the Spirit gave them utterance”. These were signs adapted to the time. For there behooved to be that betokening of the Holy Spirit in all tongues, to shew that the Gospel of God was to run through all tongues over the whole earth. That thing was done for a betokening, and it passed away. In the laying on of hands now, that persons may receive the Holy Ghost, do we look that they should speak with tongues? Or when he laid the hand on infants, did each one of you look to see whether they would speak with tongues, and, when he saw that they did not speak with tongues, was any of you so strong-minded as to say, These have not received the Holy Ghost; for, had they received, they would speak with tongues as was the case in those times? If then the witness of the presence of the Holy Ghost be not given through these miracles, by what is it given, by what does one get to know that he has received the Holy Ghost? Let him question his own heart. If he love his brother, the Spirit of God dwelleth in him. (Augustine of Hippo, 354-430)

In a parallel to modern Pentecostalism (particularly Oneness and their blasphemy against the Holy Trinity), Montanism was looked down upon.

[Montanius] became possessed of a spirit, and suddenly began to rave in a kind of ecstatic trance, and to babble in a jargon, prophesying in a manner contrary to the custom of the Church which had been handed down by Tradition from the earliest times. (Eusebius, d.c.339)

I’ve always been weary of practices “restored” by laymen…

Iono though, while I personally think its not a bad thing (to an extent), its a touchy issue, hence why I started this thread to see what others think about it.

 

[una_fides]

Sad that you have to use personal insults. Most intelligent arguments aren’t an argumentum ad hominem, so I will simply point out this was a rather childish thing to do, and will address your points with facts.

Here are several videos of the Charismatic movement:
youtube.com/watch?v=uJsEHY___Qg
youtube.com/watch?v=G0YiTU4cFfk
youtube.com/watch?v=VTyFMxzYj30
youtube.com/watch?v=nJKFMEM2ODw
youtube.com/watch?v=Nh-MycQkuDc
youtube.com/watch?v=_WiB3EmDgpI

All of this looks dangerously close to a Protestant movement. Dancing and screaming in front of the Blessed Sacrament? I can assure you that none of the Fathers would consider that respecting the Blessed Sacrament, he would hope “That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth.” (Philemon 2:10)

Again we are told that the Apostles were able to speak in tounges. However the Apostles were Bishops not laymen. Also when the Apostles spoke in tounges in the book of Acts, they had a utilitarian purpose (Acts 2:8), spreading the Gospel to peoples of different tounges (Acts 2:8) . And also remember that all the people understood them as they spoke (Acts 2:11).

I notice you make several claims in the regarding the book of Acts, when you cite a passage in the Bible, you should provide the verse.

Speaking in tounges generally fell out of use by the Middle Ages, because it was no longer necessary as enough people of different languages knew the Gospel. This practice was revived during the Wesleyan movement, and is prevalent in Baptist and Pentecostal ‘churches.’

And on your claim of Baptism of the Spirit being a release or activation of something already present is incorrect in Catholic teaching. The Holy Spirit came upon the disciples and their abilities came from the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4) not from some sort of “inner potential.”

I do not agree with everything Bishop Williamson says, but he gives a very nice sermon on how the Charismatic movement has modernist tendencies. youtube.com/watch?v=3L2bf18Hatg

It is really in accord with the teachings of St. Aquinas. God is known through reason, through evidence, through rational thinking. Not from within man’s feelings and sentiments.

I took a class with a Professor and he said that there are many people who “love” the Bible but have never read it. He could never understand how. This man had a Ph.D.

Laus Deo

Dorian,

I couldn’t agree with you more. The whole movement is a lot of hype but not a lot of depth. It is emotion driven, and its modern form and practices originated among protestants and began by Catholics reading certain protestant anti-Catholic books that explained these “supernatural occurrences” and then the Catholic laymen then started learning through imitation. These “gifts” of tongues have been proven to be learned behavior and can absolutely be controlled. I actually grew up in a pentecostal church and was taught how to speak in tongues by my first grade teacher. I did exactly as she did, I believed it to be true, and I felt emotions with it because I believed I was being possessed by the Holy Spirit. In reality, the feelings were brought about because I believed that it was God doing what was really a learned behavior. There have been several conclusive scientific studies done that demonstrate that those who speak in tongues do so through learned behavior and they mimic the sounds of the person in charge.

Lastly and most significantly, why are they needed? Why does one need to “speak in tongues”? Typically those who engage in these practices look down on Catholics as not having enough hype and not being active enough in their faith because they engage in these “dead” practices of pray the rosary and go to adoration, etc. If these traditional Catholic devotions have been good enough for the saints for so many years, then they are good enough for me too. The Church did not need tongues for the vast majority of her 2000 year history. They were only manifested in the early apostolic age in order to spread the gospel to those who otherwise would not be able to understand. If receiving the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ in the blessed sacrament is not enough for people then idk what is. If for 2000 years the saints were content with the sacraments and prayers, then I am content with these practices as well. The Church is the fullness of truth, and at no time has she ever not been. When protestants began practicing these things in the late 1800s, either the Catholic Church was “missing out” or these anti-Catholic protestants were not being led by the Spirit–as many of them have also barked like dogs and rolled on the ground. God is not the author of confusion but of peace and order.

 

[hope_7]

There was a dog that stood in the barn where the sheep would come in to eat from the trough that was filled with good food from the masters hand.The dog barked and growled and even bit some of the hungry sheep, chaseing them away from the trough and the dog would not eat from it himself. I think this is a good picture of a pharisee.

Most people when they fight so hard to express their views against the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tounges really do not understand what they are talking about. They will refer dogmaticly to what someone has said or some concept that they have which is not according to scripture. They will refuse to look at the scriptures and see what they really have to say. Many times they will try to discredit this by calling the baptism in the Holy Spirit and tounges as something from penticostals or a prodestant doctrine etc.

I have seen this subject brought up many times and this kind of thing happens over and over again.This is not always easy but It is always best to leave what we think and see What God actually says in His word and submit ourselves to Him.

If a person cannot agree with what the scripture says about being baptised in the Holy Spirit then they should not try to keep others away. Those who Have recieved this precious gift from the Father have every right to share with others but not force or belittle those that do not believe.
I personally wish that there were more people open to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the speaking in tounges, the nine gifts, and the fruits of the Spirit. So many of God,s children are really missing out on this great blessing from Him.

 

[DorianGregorian]

There was a dog that stood in the barn where the sheep would come in to eat from the trough that was filled with good food from the masters hand.The dog barked and growled and even bit some of the hungry sheep, chaseing them away from the trough and the dog would not eat from it himself. I think this is a good picture of a pharisee.

Most people when they fight so hard to express their views against the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tounges really do not understand what they are talking about. They will refer dogmaticly to what someone has said or some concept that they have which is not according to scripture. They will refuse to look at the scriptures and see what they really have to say. Many times they will try to discredit this by calling the baptism in the Holy Spirit and tounges as something from penticostals or a prodestant doctrine etc.

I have seen this subject brought up many times and this kind of thing happens over and over again.This is not always easy but It is always best to leave what we think and see What God actually says in His word and submit ourselves to Him.

If a person cannot agree with what the scripture says about being baptised in the Holy Spirit then they should not try to keep others away. Those who Have recieved this precious gift from the Father have every right to share with others but not force or belittle those that do not believe.

 I personally wish that there were more people open to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the speaking in tounges,  the nine gifts, and the fruits of the Spirit. So many of God,s children are really missing out on this great blessing from Him.

There are several references to scripture, but you don’t quote a single verse! Please provide me verses which back up your position (as I did in my previous post), and then we can discuss, but I cannot respond to those vague statements.

There are seven Gifts of the Holy Ghost (CCC 1831), not nine, however this may be a different Theology I am not familiar with. The Church though has always taught there are 7 Gifts.

The Church never rejected Baptism of the Spirit. Confirmation is the Sacrament Christ instituted at Pentecost (Acts 1:8) which the Spirit is poured out upon us, who proceeds from the Father and the Son (John 15:26). Though Baptism we are Baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19) so that we may be cleansed from Original Sin.

Again no one ever said that the Apostles didn’t speak in tounges, but if you read my previous post, I explained my opinion of that, however it is important to back up your points with doctrine and logic, not by feeling.

Laus Deo

 

[IanGE]

God give you good morning!
A fascinating thread. Blessings on all, especially those who disbelieve or scoff!
I was ‘Born Again or Anew’ (Jesus’ words, John 3.3 & 3.6; sorry I can’t insert Greek text here?) on September 28, 1982, @19.45!!! Yes, that memorable. Father David Ryan (currently PP in Stroud, UK) laid hands on me and I started this babbling deep inside my throat. Family and friends gathered in the room were excited “praise the Lord, he’s been given the Gift of Tongues!” “Tongues? What’s that?” from me. “Never mind, enjoy it, we’ll explain later.”
Explain they did: quotes galore from the Bible. But this one was given to me by the Lord; as a ‘baby Christian’ (aged 46 then!) I was puzzled by the actions of others who also claimed to be ‘Born Again’. There were the odd displays of discontent, anger, envy etc: I thought that being Born Again would lift Christians out of all that human nonsense! Being 46 years old and still full of earthly wisdom o), I thought ‘anyone can claim to have given their lives to the Lord, to be ‘Born Again’, but maybe their fruit belies them!’
The Lord promptly gave me Mark 16: 17/18: “These signs shall follow the believers. In My Name they shall drive out demons; they shall speak in new tongues (glossais). They shall take up snakes and if they drink anything deadly it shall not harm them. They shall lay their hands on the sick and they shall be well (kalos - good).” The Lord added, gently,“if you see anyone showing these signs, you will KNOW they have given their lives to Me. Don’t worry about them Ian, I am looking after them.”
(Another time when I was telling Him His business He was not so gentle:“What is it to you? You follow me!”)
A few years ago I was angrily (I would call it ‘righteously’, of course!) firing off a letter to the Universe, a Catholic Newspaper here in England. Again, the Lord directed me to open my Bible at Mark 16: 17/18. This time He said “read it ALOUD, Ian”; I did and He said “Tell them, Ian, tell them: this is important!” I jettisonned whatever I was firing off and simply wrote what He told me to write. It was published, but I think I only got one reply (But only He knows to how many it gave food for thought.)

 

[scameter18]

I personally know a Third Order regular Franciscan monk who has been one for fourty years and who is in the Charismatic Movement. He said that he has spoken in tongues, laid on hands and cured many people, etc. From my own studying, speaking in tongues means two different things, in and outside of the Bible: for one, being able to understand and speak a language you have never learned before, and for two, speaking the language of the angels, as St. Paul said he could do. It would seem to me that the latter is more common, although I’ve heard of some, such as Padre Pio, even being able to read minds, which is a similar gift of the Holy Spirit. This is, of course, for Catholics. The Pentecostal interpretation is not infallible, so I prefer to look at the Catholic view.

 

[IanGE]

Mornin’ All
I am not surprised by the many attacks using ‘feelings’ as a disclaimer. As a ‘baby Christian’ some 27 years ago I used to get annoyed too, arguing that starting a meeting with ‘Happy-Clappy’ songs was geeing ourselves up to approach the Lord through ‘emotions’! It was hard work over the years, learning the difference between ‘emotion-feeling’ and Spiritual Insight.
When we first started, my wife and I both used to get “The Tingles” when we laid hands on someone. We KNEW when someone was getting “an armful” or a full top-up! Others never got “the tingles” and I said, “then how do you KNOW when someone is getting blessed?” “Faith” was the answer, every time.
Gradually the “Tingles” diminished over the years, for both of us. We still pray when folk ask us, but we both miss those lovely years of “The Tingles”!!!
I am currently experiencing an even more severe trial of Faith. About 5 years ago the Lord said to me, “I am going to show you a new face of Me, Ian.” I replied, “Lord, I’m quite happy with the Old Face” - this was hearing the Lord speak quite regularly, directing, teaching, chastising, messages for others; and “feeling” the Lord (“Call me Abba, Ian”) sitting on arm of my chair; those outpourings of glorious Love - a friend calls it “the warm treacle over the head” feeling.
Gradually all that stopped, for me. I was distraught, begging the Lord to come back - “why have You forsaken me” etc etc. I am beginning to KNOW He hasn’t forsaken me - or anyone. Maybe this new ‘face’ is the face that zillions see - the Silent Unseen God - and now I have to join the zillions in FAITH!
Years ago I asked, “Lord, who was Thomas’ (Didymus) twin? He’s not in the Bible.”
The Lord said immediately, “You, Ian”…
Now I read His other words to Thomas (Jn 20:29): …“Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” Amen!

 

[IanGE]

The Pentecostal interpretation is not infallible, so I prefer to look at the Catholic view.

Neither is the Catholics’ view, my friend - except when the Pope speaks *ex-cathedra *(have I got that right?) once in a blue moon!

 

[the_7th_one]

Dorian,

I couldn’t agree with you more. The whole movement is a lot of hype but not a lot of depth. It is emotion driven, and its modern form and practices originated among protestants and began by Catholics reading certain protestant anti-Catholic books that explained these “supernatural occurrences” and then the Catholic laymen then started learning through imitation. These “gifts” of tongues have been proven to be learned behavior and can absolutely be controlled. I actually grew up in a pentecostal church and was taught how to speak in tongues by my first grade teacher. I did exactly as she did, I believed it to be true, and I felt emotions with it because I believed I was being possessed by the Holy Spirit. In reality, the feelings were brought about because I believed that it was God doing what was really a learned behavior. There have been several conclusive scientific studies done that demonstrate that those who speak in tongues do so through learned behavior and they mimic the sounds of the person in charge.

Lastly and most significantly, why are they needed? Why does one need to “speak in tongues”? Typically those who engage in these practices look down on Catholics as not having enough hype and not being active enough in their faith because they engage in these “dead” practices of pray the rosary and go to adoration, etc. If these traditional Catholic devotions have been good enough for the saints for so many years, then they are good enough for me too. The Church did not need tongues for the vast majority of her 2000 year history. They were only manifested in the early apostolic age in order to spread the gospel to those who otherwise would not be able to understand. If receiving the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ in the blessed sacrament is not enough for people then idk what is. If for 2000 years the saints were content with the sacraments and prayers, then I am content with these practices as well. The Church is the fullness of truth, and at no time has she ever not been. When protestants began practicing these things in the late 1800s, either the Catholic Church was “missing out” or these anti-Catholic protestants were not being led by the Spirit–as many of them have also barked like dogs and rolled on the ground. God is not the author of confusion but of peace and order.

Catholic Charismatic movement, as sanctioned by the Popes (yes Paul VI and John Paul II) is diffrent from the Pentecost Churches. Yes there have been some Protestents that have used the Charismatic movement to pull Catholics away from the truth of the the Church, the same is true for almost any other movement with in the church.
If you read the lives of the saints you will fins many exibit the same signs of the Catholic Charismatic movement (ie laying on of hands, an strong emotional atachment to their faith,) Glossolalia is not well documented, but I am not sure if that is because of it not being prevelent or it was not understood the same then as today. It was in the Catholic Charismatic movement that I found a love for Christ in the Blessed Sacrement.
It come down to a point that the Protestant Churches missed. The bible was written by God, using the Church to do so. She has been given authority sayin g what the doctrines are that Scripture says. Most (not all) Catholic Charismatic groups lean on the teaching of the church to guide them. Pentecostal churches do not have this guide and can be lead to some strange and off the wall practices

 

[una_fides]

Most people when they fight so hard to express their views against the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tounges really do not understand what they are talking about. They will refer dogmaticly to what someone has said or some concept that they have which is not according to scripture. They will refuse to look at the scriptures and see what they really have to say. Many times they will try to discredit this by calling the baptism in the Holy Spirit and tounges as something from penticostals or a prodestant doctrine etc.

I have seen this subject brought up many times and this kind of thing happens over and over again.This is not always easy but It is always best to leave what we think and see What God actually says in His word and submit ourselves to Him.

If a person cannot agree with what the scripture says about being baptised in the Holy Spirit then they should not try to keep others away. Those who Have recieved this precious gift from the Father have every right to share with others but not force or belittle those that do not believe.

 I personally wish that there were more people open to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the speaking in tounges,  the nine gifts, and the fruits of the Spirit. So many of God,s children are really missing out on this great blessing from Him.

Hi Hope,
Thank you for sharing your perspective. I’d like to comment on a couple of things in your post. First, regarding Scripture, you mentioned several times in your post that people are just disagreeing with Scripture. But whose interpretation of Scripture is the correct one? There are tens of thousands of protestant denominations all which foster different interpretations of the same Scriptures. There is no agreement in the protestant world on virtually any teaching. I was protestant my entire life until several years ago, and I went to many different churches in various denominations and also read and studied from many different protestant perspectives. Interestingly enough every side could make their persuasive arguments and each cited Scriptures in support. They each dogmatically claimed that the Scriptures taught what they were teaching. How can anyone know who was correct?

Jesus knew that there would be divisions in his Church, and for this reason he sent us his Holy Spirit, the Spirit of unity and of truth. This same Spirit has been guiding his Church and preserving her teachings for over 2000 years. There can only be one truth, just as there is only one Lord, one faith, and one baptism. Christ set in place his apostles to lead the Church and to appoint bishops to take their place and succeed them in their authority. This one, holy, Catholic (universal), and apostolic Church guards and preserves the message of Christ that he handed down to the apostles orally. Scripture is only a part of that oral Tradition handed down from the apostles, and the books of Scripture themselves were canonized by the Church. Hence, without the Church, you would not know which books were and were not Scripture, and you would not even believe they were inspired by God. The Catholic Church taught these books were inspired, and protestants ran with that idea 1500 years later when they tried interpreting them on their own apart from the apostolic Tradition in which they were written.

Christ did not only leave the Church with the Holy Spirit, he left her with Himself in the Blessed Sacrament. If you read the early Church fathers, who were the first bishops appointed by the apostles themselves to succeed them and who were taught directly by the apostles, they universally understood Christ to be really present under the appearance of the bread and wine in Holy Communion (click here for the fathers). When Christ said, “This IS my body” and “This IS my blood,” he actually meant it! Hence, we Catholics actually receive Christ’s Real substantial Presence in Holy Communion. He actually abides in us and we in Him, and He strengthens us to persevere, run the race, and fight the good fight. I was raised pentecostal, I’ve “spoken in tongues,” and have been a part of the rock-style and emotion-driven services, and I can honestly tell you that such “experiences” pale in comparison to receiving the Lord of Lords into our bodies and uniting our souls with his. I say all these things with charity and in hope that you too will enter into full communion with Christ and with his Church.
“And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity” (1 Cor 13:13).

 

[sauce]

There was a dog that stood in the barn where the sheep would come in to eat from the trough that was filled with good food from the masters hand.The dog barked and growled and even bit some of the hungry sheep, chaseing them away from the trough and the dog would not eat from it himself. I think this is a good picture of a pharisee.

Most people when they fight so hard to express their views against the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tounges really do not understand what they are talking about. They will refer dogmaticly to what someone has said or some concept that they have which is not according to scripture. They will refuse to look at the scriptures and see what they really have to say. Many times they will try to discredit this by calling the baptism in the Holy Spirit and tounges as something from penticostals or a prodestant doctrine etc.

I have seen this subject brought up many times and this kind of thing happens over and over again.This is not always easy but It is always best to leave what we think and see What God actually says in His word and submit ourselves to Him.

If a person cannot agree with what the scripture says about being baptised in the Holy Spirit then they should not try to keep others away. Those who Have recieved this precious gift from the Father have every right to share with others but not force or belittle those that do not believe.

 I personally wish that there were more people open to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the speaking in tounges,  the nine gifts, and the fruits of the Spirit. So many of God,s children are really missing out on this great blessing from Him./QUOTE

Hope 7,

You are on target. The manifestations, as you know, are always for a purpose in the group. So dogs barking would only be uncomfortable for those being convicted of something…like the pharisee. Or disobedient bishops. What’s to hide?
For instance, bishops who have hidden child abuse. No one is exempt from being
corrected.

I’ve seen people practically tap dance. The scripture reference I think is from Jeremiah
having “…fire shut up in my bones…” The fire makes the legs and feet move. This is
the Holy Spirit and the “Glory” doing that to a person under the Anointing.

Some people are not open to the in-filling of God’s power so there is never a
demonstration of that power. It doesn’t make anyone a bad person either.

To make a comment about emotion and hype is not the correct story.
This is not about emotion. Or obsession. Or even a movement.

It’s about the Spirit of God renewing the face of the earth…if we are open to it.
I’ve often listened closely to clergy invoking the Holy Spirit at services. But I find it
odd that when the Holy Spirit shows up, many do not like the manner or form in which the Holy Spirit shows up. So it is criticized, repressed, and rejected by those who don’t
understand or are afraid.

God is to be worshiped…nothing else and no one else. In the end, God is the final
judge as to who was most :yup::yup: open to His grace.

 

[una_fides]

Catholic Charismatic movement, as sanctioned by the Popes (yes Paul VI and John Paul II) is diffrent from the Pentecost Churches. Yes there have been some Protestents that have used the Charismatic movement to pull Catholics away from the truth of the the Church, the same is true for almost any other movement with in the church.

Where did this movement originate (or “reemerge” depending on your perspective) in history and among what groups?

If you read the lives of the saints you will fins many exibit the same signs of the Catholic Charismatic movement (ie laying on of hands, an strong emotional atachment to their faith,) Glossolalia is not well documented, but I am not sure if that is because of it not being prevelent or it was not understood the same then as today. It was in the Catholic Charismatic movement that I found a love for Christ in the Blessed Sacrement.

I do not doubt that the movement can help some people such as yourself appreciate their faith more and help them to take it more seriously. And as was pointed out, just as it can lead some to more deeply appreciate the Church and her teachings, it also leads countless souls away from her and into protestant churches, where they can “experience the fullness of Christian life” through these “supernatural gifts.” The key is that we have to keep the focus on Christ and the sacraments, and we also must have our ultimate goal be the search for the truth. The popes that have permitted the charismatic movement have done so not because they are saying that the movement is grounded in truth. The actions of these popes demonstrate that they do not want to isolate people and instead wish to draw them into the Church however possible. Paul VI said that the charismatic movement was permitted for the sake of ecumenism so that to draw more charismatics into the Catholic faith so they could realize that the sacraments are the fullness of Christian practice and what they were really missing out on all this time. Those popes were not infallible in permitting these movements any more than JP2 was in calling his interreligious prayer meeting at Assisi where he had false religions engage in their evil practices in the sake of peace. Popes are not preserved from teaching error in every instance. However, we can rest assured that God’s prayer for Peter that his faith will not fail will continue with his successors. Popes are human and have a lot of pressure on them especially today to give in and permit things like never before. Furthermore, we do not know how much information these popes had concerning the movement and its origins and practices. It is possible that they were given different information.

That said, if the movement helped you, then I would say that the end result was great, but I do not believe that the practices of speaking in tongues and being slain in the Spirit, etc that come from the movement are true. They may be sincere in many or most cases but they are not rooted in truth. I say this because of the origins of the movement and the other reasons I pointed out above that from a Catholic perspective do not make sense.

It come down to a point that the Protestant Churches missed. The bible was written by God, using the Church to do so. She has been given authority sayin g what the doctrines are that Scripture says. Most (not all) Catholic Charismatic groups lean on the teaching of the church to guide them. Pentecostal churches do not have this guide and can be lead to some strange and off the wall practices

It was in this protestant anti-Catholic atmosphere where the charismatic emerged in the late 1800s and continued until the 1950s and 60s when it softened its message and invaded all the other denominations including even the Catholic Church.

 

[kenis]

“Those who belong to God and Jesus Christ ally themselves with the bishop. Brethren, be not deceived; whosoever follows a schismatic shall not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven”. St. Ignatius of Antioch.

 

[sauce]

Kind of like Archbishop Lefevre?

Nice.

 

[juliamajor]

While I’m not ruling out the possibility that people can speak in tongues, I think a lot of times its just group think.

Since it’s a “heavenly” language and other people can’t understand it. Sometimes people think they have it and speak in “tongues” and think its real when it’s just in their heads.

It was not considered orthodox until the modern Pentecostal movement.

However, some early Church Fathers did record instances if it happening (like Justin Martyr and St. Irenaeus).

However, St. Tertullian only wrote about different languages by the Spirit.

Many of the later Church Fathers (like St. Augustine) believed it was only in the early years of the Church and was lost since the Gospel was complete and already spreading.

In a parallel to modern Pentecostalism (particularly Oneness and their blasphemy against the Holy Trinity), Montanism was looked down upon.

I’ve always been weary of practices “restored” by laymen…

Iono though, while I personally think its not a bad thing (to an extent), its a touchy issue, hence why I started this thread to see what others think about it.

Paul speaks about a variety of ‘tongues’ not all were meant to speak a foreign language-some were meant as a praise language and a prayer language. there are many Charsimatics who don’t use tongues at all.
Can different practices cause confusion- yes but you can say that about any movement. As far as behavior that some find unusual- that is up to the bishop and the diocese to decide what can and can’t be done and what behavior is deemed proper.Bishops decide that not lay people.
As far as practices being restored what about practices and devotions started by the laity?

 

[kenis]

We also live in the age of entertainment and unforunately the age of the broken family. Lots of good folks respond to the charismatic like hugging each other and saying I love you. All good stuff of course but God commands us to love Him with our whole heart, mind ,and strength and our neighbor as ourself. Jesus gave to us Himself in the form of bread and wine in the Eucharist to be with us through the ages. If you do not eat the flesh of the Son of Man or drink His blood you have no life in you. No where does the bible say one MUST speak in tounges. If people would love the Eucharist as much as the toung vainglory the world would be a better place. We all have equal dignity and should humbly accept the teachings of His church. When people at the time of the early church heard the word of God spoken in their own language they were baptised. Watch out for the wolves that scatter the sheep, the precursers of the antichrist.

 

[sauce]

The bible tells us not to grieve the Holy Spirit.

If He is the potter and we are the clay, where is the fire?
On some level we are responsible for quenching the fire.
And without that, you’ve got a cold Church.