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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Yes, I know.
Paul talks about how he’d rather speak a few words that could be understood than a lot of words no one in the Church could understand too.
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Paul talks about how he’d rather speak a few words that could be understood than a lot of words no one in the Church could understand too.
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FabiusMaximus
Guest
He also said “I thank God I speak in tongues more than all of you.”
A proper contextual reading of 1 Corinthians 14 reveals that Paul was specifically referring to order within worship, not limiting the use of tongues.
Paul was referring specifically to how some members of the Church in Corinth were speaking in tongues aloud. It is a beautiful moment for yourself, but it doesn’t help the person standing or sitting next to you trying to worship. This caused chaos.
Tongues can either come with interpretation, or it can be spoken softly between the speaker and God privately without needing an interpretation (much like when you pray to yourself you don’t need to tell me what you’re praying about - it’s between you and God).
If tongues are exhorted publicly, Paul said they should have an interpretation. If not, you just wasted other people’s time.
Paul is rather clear. I still don’t get how people miss it. There are two types of tongues - public exhortation and private prayer. The latter is, according to Pentecostals, what is espoused when one is filled with the Holy Spirit.
With regards to Acts 2:4, I find it interesting how in the other instances in Acts where tongues are mentioned, Peter refers to the either the words of Jesus Christ (“you shall be Baptized with the Holy Spirit in but a few days…”) or directly to the experience of Pentecost. Yet Cornelius and his household understood Peter, and being so few in number, there was no need for the reverse “Tower of Babel” (as you put it) that occurred at Pentecost.
Therefore, the tongues that did occur at Pentecost were not necessarily exclusively the way you mention it.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
I don’t question, and try not to doubt, another person’s use of tongues. As I’ve told people here before, I was raised Protestant and witnessed a lot of people speaking in ‘tongues’. I also witnessed people speaking in tongues at a Catholic Charismatic weekend gathering.
As I said, I try not to doubt another preson’s use of tongues, I have been doubtful at times, but that’s my own weakness that I recognize as a form of judging, I am human.
The reversal, as I see it, is that God used tongues to keep man from building the tower, because man cannot acheive heaven through the efforts of man, without God. Then God used tongues that every man heard in his own native tongue thereby giving man a way to heaven, offered by God. It’s how I view it and not something that is doctrinal. Maybe one day I’ll get to ask Him.
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Reuben_J
Guest
Since you bring this up. It’s interesting. What do you think? Is this the tongue that Paul spoke about in 1 Cor 12? Or is it the one that he mentioned in Rom 8:26?
And is this the tongue that Charismatics speak about?
I agree that the tongue in the Tower of Babel was just the opposite of the one in Pentecost in its manifestation and intent.
Prodigal Son1:
What do you think when Paul said this:
1 Corinthians 14:4
He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
1 Corinthians 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
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Reuben_J
Guest
OK. Noted.
Here lies our differences even though the same term may be used.
Tongue is never the evidence for being in-filled with the Holy Spirit during the “Baptism of the Holy Spirit”. A person does not have to experience anything at all to be filled with the Holy Spirit. The changing of life by the changing of mind does not have to have any physical attributes at all and yet one can be infilled with the Holy Spirit.
So you can see why Catholics are so disgusted with Charismatics because they tend to see what you guys believe and do and think that Catholic equivalents do the same.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Did some reading last night, will re-read again today and hopefully respond sometimes today. Right now, preparing for a 24 hour shift and responding depends on how busy we are and how much I have to do at the station.
It certainly appears edification of the Church is spelled out, but last night I did read where it said let it be one or two and then with an interpreter. If there was no interpreter, it seems it was recommended to be a ‘quiet’ prayer between the man and God.
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FabiusMaximus
Guest
‘Disgusted’ would be a bit harsh, don’t you think? I don’t see what the big fury is against this teaching. It’s not anymore ‘disgusting’ than the Catholic Church’s claim to be the “One True Church.”
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
…or someone taking every opportunity to say it isn’t.
The one big difference between some Protestant Churches and the Catholic/Orthodox Church is the solemnity of worship services. I’ve seen both types and personally prefer the more solemn worship services. As I’ve said before, that doesn’t exclude attending a Charismatic Mass once in a while. I even enjoy worshipping with Protestants once in a while (I have family that is Protestant), after meeting my obligations to my Church. It certainly appears that Paul’s concern was the solemnity of the worship as he sets things in ‘order’, or an orderly fashion, for the edification of the Church.
Let’s try to understand each other and not voice ‘disgusts’ at each other’s beliefs, which sometimes appears to being taking an opportunity to throw another ‘jab’ for intentions of other than ‘edification’…those disgusts can be avoided by your own choices, of participating in a thread or even being on Catholic forums.
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FabiusMaximus
Guest
I shall just like to clarify that both beliefs are legitimate to hold, and neither are “disgusting.” There is no orthodox Pentecostal denomination out there that teaches that a person who does not speak in tongues is “less holy,” “less of a Christian,” or an “inferior Christian” than those who have not. It is simply held as another experience subsequent to salvation that all Christians should obtain.
I do not reject either more liturgical forms of worship or more modern low church services. I actually very much enjoyed the Catholic Mass the time I attended, as well as the Orthodox Divine Liturgy. That being said, a call for order is not necessarily the same as needing a more solemn form of worship. I’ve never heard of a Pentecostal church that allows total chaos in its services through tongues. Heck, I’ve once attended a friend’s Oneness Pentecostal church, who believe that tongues are even necessary for salvation, and I didn’t even hear tongues in that service. I think that worry is more imagined than actually real.
I am good with dialogue. However, I would say that it is a bit difficult to have any form of ecumenical progress when you do call yourself the “One True Church.” Whether I believe that assertion is beside the point, though it is a valid point to hold. I just don’t think there can be progress with that assumption in mind (I don’t know, it might be what you prefer - that the Catholic Church should try to convert, not have dialogue, which is also valid).
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cheese_sdc
Guest
I grew up in a Catholic Charismatic house. My mother was (and still is) heavily involved with it.
The only way I’d ever set foot in another prayer meeting again is with a gun to my head, and even then I’d consider fighting.
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FabiusMaximus
Guest
So you loved it?
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cheese_sdc
Guest
Words cannot convey my loathing for it.So you loved it?
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FabiusMaximus
Guest
Sorry to hear you had a negative experience.
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cheese_sdc
Guest
Negative? lol That’s the same as describing a trident nuclear missile as a peashooter.
My charismatic family and subsequent experiences within the movement left me incapable of understanding God as loving. My understanding of your Christian God is one of judgment, anger, divisiveness, pettiness, and vindictiveness.
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Lapey
Guest
I haven’t commented too much on this thread, you people have done a great job of discussing our differences and especially our likenesses.
This is my take on the whole thing, “charismatically” speaking that is. Sorry I couldn’t resist.
My home parish has a very vibrant charismatic group. Meetings every Thursday night at Our Lady of Prompt Succor Adoration Chapel, which is a decommissioned mission chapel converted into this with the sole purpose of making available perpetual adoration to everyone. I go occasionally to these meetings it depends on who they have speaking or if I am in need of spiritual help. Overall the experiences there have been good. There have been times where I truly felt uncomfortable though. This is one example of one of those times.
We had a priest from a neighboring diocese come in on a Thursday night to conduct a “baptism in the spirit” seminar. Well let’s just say that I had heard so much about this type of event that I had to be there. I was pumped and ready to be baptized in the spirit. Well by the time baptism time came I was wondering where this guy, the priest, got some of this information he was telling us, because it sure wasn’t from the bible. I was truly confused by some of the things he told us.
For example, he told us that everyone has the gift of tongues you just need to be “open” and have “faith”. Just make a sound, it could be anything and just repeat it and before you know it you’ll be “speaking in tongues”. Then he went on to lead the prayer team he had with him to come behind each of us and lay hands on us and basically pressure us into doing what he said, just make noise. The words “babble like the pagans” came to mind, but that’s another thread.
I believe in the charismatic gifts, all of them. But the bible plainly states that not all will speak in tongues, not all will interpret. Some will be apostles, some teachers, etc.
I work a lot in youth ministry and I have had to council teens that have been brought by their well meaning parents to local charismatic fly by night “churches” that pop up and tell them that they are not true Christians because they don’t speak in tongues. There is one about a mile from my parish church that has been operating about a year now, the “Faith Family Church”. I have no idea who they align their self with or if they stand alone, I’m sure with their version of the bible, or if they align their self with some Pentecostal denomination. But this I can assure you, it is required that you speak in tongues and practice it openly or you are shunned. I worked with a young lade in the last six months trying to repair the damage that was done to her by going to this church with a family member. This is real and dangerous.
That is a problem in all groups; remember not all will be graced with all gifts. The fruit always has to be measured. If this is of God, it will bear good fruit. The vibrant group I speak of at my home parish has been in existence for 30 years or more, it is still basically the same people. They are getting older, why hasn’t it grown throughout the parish and diocese? There are many across the diocese that attends the diocesan events, but those are always the same faces; they too are getting older. Most don’t question that, I do I guess I am a cynic.
My personal opinion is that the whole charismatic renewal needs to be renewed. There is much good going on, but it could do so much more to bring people to Christ, not tongues. That would be a gift of the Spirit, not the gift of salvation.
Sorry for the homily…lol
Gary
This is my take on the whole thing, “charismatically” speaking that is. Sorry I couldn’t resist.
My home parish has a very vibrant charismatic group. Meetings every Thursday night at Our Lady of Prompt Succor Adoration Chapel, which is a decommissioned mission chapel converted into this with the sole purpose of making available perpetual adoration to everyone. I go occasionally to these meetings it depends on who they have speaking or if I am in need of spiritual help. Overall the experiences there have been good. There have been times where I truly felt uncomfortable though. This is one example of one of those times.
We had a priest from a neighboring diocese come in on a Thursday night to conduct a “baptism in the spirit” seminar. Well let’s just say that I had heard so much about this type of event that I had to be there. I was pumped and ready to be baptized in the spirit. Well by the time baptism time came I was wondering where this guy, the priest, got some of this information he was telling us, because it sure wasn’t from the bible. I was truly confused by some of the things he told us.
For example, he told us that everyone has the gift of tongues you just need to be “open” and have “faith”. Just make a sound, it could be anything and just repeat it and before you know it you’ll be “speaking in tongues”. Then he went on to lead the prayer team he had with him to come behind each of us and lay hands on us and basically pressure us into doing what he said, just make noise. The words “babble like the pagans” came to mind, but that’s another thread.
I believe in the charismatic gifts, all of them. But the bible plainly states that not all will speak in tongues, not all will interpret. Some will be apostles, some teachers, etc.
I work a lot in youth ministry and I have had to council teens that have been brought by their well meaning parents to local charismatic fly by night “churches” that pop up and tell them that they are not true Christians because they don’t speak in tongues. There is one about a mile from my parish church that has been operating about a year now, the “Faith Family Church”. I have no idea who they align their self with or if they stand alone, I’m sure with their version of the bible, or if they align their self with some Pentecostal denomination. But this I can assure you, it is required that you speak in tongues and practice it openly or you are shunned. I worked with a young lade in the last six months trying to repair the damage that was done to her by going to this church with a family member. This is real and dangerous.
That is a problem in all groups; remember not all will be graced with all gifts. The fruit always has to be measured. If this is of God, it will bear good fruit. The vibrant group I speak of at my home parish has been in existence for 30 years or more, it is still basically the same people. They are getting older, why hasn’t it grown throughout the parish and diocese? There are many across the diocese that attends the diocesan events, but those are always the same faces; they too are getting older. Most don’t question that, I do I guess I am a cynic.
My personal opinion is that the whole charismatic renewal needs to be renewed. There is much good going on, but it could do so much more to bring people to Christ, not tongues. That would be a gift of the Spirit, not the gift of salvation.
Sorry for the homily…lol
Gary
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tweetymom
Guest
A very good Homily. Thank you for the post. Togues are a gift from God, and you canot get the gift unless God gives it to you and you accept. I have seen many things abused in the name of Jesus. Some people are a bit over zealous. Tongues and all the gifts are for real, but people sometimes are into themselves rather than into Jesus.
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Lapey
Guest
Amen Miss tweety, not too often you and I agree so we must dwell in this moment for a while!!! lol
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tweetymom
Guest
Wow maybe we can write that one down lolAmen Miss tweety, not too often you and I agree so we must dwell in this moment for a while!!! lol
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manualman
Guest
I pray that “incapable” is incorrect. Perhaps inhibited. As I mentioned earlier, the charismatic movement as a whole is a lot like sex: tremendous potential for abuse and damage if misused, but still a profound gift that draws us closer to God when accepted and used properly. Your experience sounds like it was an awful one.
Perhaps this strains the analogy a bit, but a victim of sexual abuse is not, for a long time, capable of healthy married sexual relations. The hurt has to be healed before the gift can be appreciated as it was meant to. By all means, stay away from charismatic prayer groups for as long as you need to. But recognize that the hurt you experienced was due to an abused form of charismatic life, not the essence of it. Don’t be like the abused victim who concludes that sex is inherently dirty and that all men are rapists. And beware of making the EXACT same mistake far too many charismatics made in the early days: ignoring the objective revelations of God (namely Scripture and Tradition) in favor of what you personally FEEL is right.
You’re here reading at CAF. Perhaps a portion of your soul knows God better than your conscious mind does. God is none of those things you mentioned. Ask Him.
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FabiusMaximus
Guest
No one said it will happen the first time. Indeed sometimes the pressure of having too man people with you will produce the opposite effect. I think I tried twice with my Youth Group a few years ago, both attempts failed. No one should be pressured into it.
I already replied to this objection earlier. They’re not the same “tongues.”
Yeah but very few Pentecostal churches actually say that only “true Christians” speak in tongues, or that it is necessary for salvation. Most of these are part of the Oneness groups.
Mainstream Pentecostals do not state that, nor even require you to practice it “often.” It is simply recognized as a gift that God freely bestowed to us. They do not place any more emphasis on the charismatic gifts than salvation, baptism, or other concepts. Perhaps a very tiny number do, but 99% of the time, it is imagined by those who generally don’t have much experience with Pentecostal groups. I’ve been to Assemblies of God churches where I haven’t heard tongues at all, either prayed silently nor publicly exhorted.
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