The Charismatic Movement

[gtrenewed]

I am a charismatic Catholic. I love the movement. I am not very active within it though as the nearest charismatic Catholic prayer group is rather far from here.

Thanks I like the simplicity of your post. Do you pray in other tongues?

I am Charismatic also, for over 20years now, and when I was introduced to the renewal back then I was shown in Scripture where being baptized in the Spirit was evidenced by a prayer language in an unknown tongue, not the gift of tongues, but a corresponding prayer language.

I was prayed over to receive but the prayer language was not there immediately. But because I believed in what Scripture taught I went to God repeatedly until I did receive. Since then various gifts have manifested at various times including the gift of tongues and interpretation.

There seems to be a lot of confusion and dissension over tongues. I have prayed for people to be baptized in the Spirit and some got a prayer language and some did not, one person woke up the next morning speaking in tongues but never did it again. To know why would have to be revealed by God. Other people have received a prayer language while by themselves praying normally, God just baptized them sovereignly.

You can be baptized in the Holy Spirit and not manifest a prayer language although there is a special power in this type of prayer. If you believe that God will give you a prayer language He will because He says He will. If you consider it not essential to your walk then you will not get it unless God does it sovereignly.

The key part is that you are coming to this renewal believing in the baptism of the Holy Spirit and desiring a prayer language along with the other gifts. You are accepted whether you have a prayer language or not because you love Jesus and that is good enough.

Sorry I went on like I was lecturing you, it just came out from reading the other posts. I did not intend any of this at you other than my first question.

You are right, how can people call themselves Catholic and support abortion. One question I wrestle with is that if a person makes a wrong choice and goes for an abortion, do we want them in a good facility or a back alley? I look to the many mistakes I have made and thank God for His kindness leading me to repentance. We know that their soul will suffer but do we want them mutilated? How do we approach this? Giving people a choice but yet not supporting abortion. God gives us choices and when we sin He gives us grace and forgiveness. I know Catholic hospitals have to struggle with this question. I don’t want to get off thread by this just curious since you are Charismatic.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

But from the feedback that I heard which is mainly from my fellow Catholics is that Protestant Charismatics are far from what you say here. There are of course some questionable phenomena like the holy laughter, rupture, etc, which you said were rejected.

Then we have Benny Hinn. I saw his tape many years back which was shown to me by a brother. I was very impressed at first but before long I know that there was something wrong with him and what happened during his session. I was proven true when the real Benny Hinn was found out.

So, if most of your Charismatic leaders fall and made mistake, it is really very hard to be convinced that they were continuously led by the Spirit. No, I am not saying that leaders don’t fall. I am saying that if you base your practice on what they are doing as true and then later in their lives they fall, it surely does not make good testimonies.

Like I said, the Holy Laughter phenomena was so vociferously opposed by the Vineyard denomination that it withdrew its support for that particular Toronto church.

Benny Hinn is not a Pentecostal. If someone self-styles himself as charismatic, it doesn’t make him anymore charismatic than a pro-abortion person declaring themselves Catholic. Indeed Benny Hinn’s religious roots are in Orthodoxy, not Pentecostalism.

So I reject that "most of ‘our’ leaders’ fail and make great mistakes. Because neither Benny Hinn nor the Toronto Airport church are representative of the charismatics anymore than Nancy Pelosi is representative of Roman Catholicism. And there are far more “Catholics” like her than “charismatics” like Benny Hinn.

The way people talk about it, yes, as if that’s all that you do. Lol.

Most importantly, the idea is, one mistake is far too many in the realm of spirituality and therefore many people cannot and do not want to readily accept them.

These alleged mistakes have been fabricated or wrongly associated with the charismatic/Pentecostal movement. If you want something representative check out the website of the Assemblies of God.

How many mistakes has the Roman Catholic Church made over the centuries? Shall I reject it because of events like the Inquisition?

Yes, I think it is because you believe that it is a physical sign of the Holy Spirit. When you believe this, you will offend a lot of people, as if those who do not have tongue do not have the Holy Spirit.

So what?

You Catholics claim to be the One True Church and that you have the fullness of the Gospel, and you alone. And you’re saying that the Pentecostal doctrine of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is “offensive”? Most people don’t even know what the doctrine states. And it doesn’t state you don’t have the Holy Spirit if you don’t have the initial physical evidence, it simply says that you do not have the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and its corresponding gifts.

In Catholicism we are more conservative and which I think is the correct position regarding this gift. Tongue is not the only criteria of the manifestation of the Holy Spirit. In fact it is not that important – more important is the changes within (that a person experiences).

This is your opinion (what is in bold). But it’s not “tongues” that are sought in Pentecostalism, but the Holy Spirit. Its baptism is evidenced by the speaking in tongues. To say that Pentecostals obsess about tongues is akin to saying that Catholics worship Mary.

 

[tweetymom]

Like I said, the Holy Laughter phenomena was so vociferously opposed by the Vineyard denomination that it withdrew its support for that particular Toronto church.

Benny Hinn is not a Pentecostal. If someone self-styles himself as charismatic, it doesn’t make him anymore charismatic than a pro-abortion person declaring themselves Catholic. Indeed Benny Hinn’s religious roots are in Orthodoxy, not Pentecostalism.

So I reject that "most of ‘our’ leaders’ fail and make great mistakes. Because neither Benny Hinn nor the Toronto Airport church are representative of the charismatics anymore than Nancy Pelosi is representative of Roman Catholicism. And there are far more “Catholics” like her than “charismatics” like Benny Hinn.

These alleged mistakes have been fabricated or wrongly associated with the charismatic/Pentecostal movement. If you want something representative check out the website of the Assemblies of God.

How many mistakes has the Roman Catholic Church made over the centuries? Shall I reject it because of events like the Inquisition?

So what?

You Catholics claim to be the One True Church and that you have the fullness of the Gospel, and you alone. And you’re saying that the Pentecostal doctrine of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is “offensive”? Most people don’t even know what the doctrine states. And it doesn’t state you don’t have the Holy Spirit if you don’t have the initial physical evidence, it simply says that you do not have the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and its corresponding gifts.

This is your opinion (what is in bold). But it’s not “tongues” that are sought in Pentecostalism, but the Holy Spirit. Its baptism is evidenced by the speaking in tongues. To say that Pentecostals obsess about tongues is akin to saying that Catholics worship Mary.

Amen great post.

 

[gtrenewed]

So, if most of your Charismatic leaders fall and made mistake, it is really very hard to be convinced that they were continuously led by the Spirit. No, I am not saying that leaders don’t fall. I am saying that if you base your practice on what they are doing as true and then later in their lives they fall, it surely does not make good testimonies.

God bless.

The fundamental belief of Charismatics is that every practice should be verified in Scripture. We are not to base our beliefs on people, no matter how spiritual or gifted they seem.

We believe that the Holy Spirit will lead and guide us into truth. If a leader says they are continually lead by the Spirit and everything they do is approved by God, they are usually wrong. This is what I call the “God told me so you can’t argue with it” ploy. It is a way for them to get their way. The early church faced these kind of people also. Paul, Peter, and John taught much about them as false apostles only out for their personal gain.

Some in the Catholic renewal use this but there is generally fewer than in Protestant pentacostal/charismatic churches. This is because there is already a hierarchy in the Catholic church and the renewal is part of the larger church. In Protestant churches, anyone can start a church or ministry so the structure allows more error.

God has brought correction on Charismatics/Pentacostals leaders who use the flock instead of being a servant leader to the flock. There are still those out there because of the mercy of God giving them time to repent. Prophets are sent over and over again to them and if they keep ignoring them eventually correction comes. Pride comes before a fall and if they refuse the gentle correction of the prophet, God will bring the hammer down.

Many Catholics it seems on this forum do not like the renewal because they have run into the “God told me so don’t argue” type of Charismatic or they just don’t like the exuberent worship. But true Charismatic worshippers walk in love and not confrontation. We are clay pots in the Potters Hands but sometimes we have cracks and are misunderstood. If you are drawn, check us out and if not, God Bless.

 

[Reuben_J]

This is your opinion (what is in bold). But it’s not “tongues” that are sought in Pentecostalism, but the Holy Spirit. Its baptism is evidenced by the speaking in tongues. To say that Pentecostals obsess about tongues is akin to saying that Catholics worship Mary.

As I said, that could be the difference between us.

I do not say Pentecostals are obsessed with tongue; it is not my opinion. I heard them from fellow Catholics who think they know about Pentecostals. And in any case what they say has no influence with me as I do not know much about Pentecostals. If I want to know I would have asked them myself, which I did not. I was only answering your questions in my last post. And also as you can see, I will not be baited into arguing about Mary or the True Church, as this is not the thread for them but I can understand your analogy for them. So I understand what you are trying to say.

In most of my posts I would not talk about Protestantism because I wouldn’t know where to start and has no in-depth knowledge in the subject. I will only defend Catholicism if I feel there is a misunderstanding or accusation thrown against it. I like to explain Catholicism if I have the opportunity to do so.

God bless.

 

[Reuben_J]

If you believe that tongue is the only criteria for the evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, can you please explain why it is so?

 

[gtrenewed]

If you believe that tongue is the only criteria for the evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, can you please explain why it is so?

It is taught in Scripture that tongues or an ecstatic outburst of prophecy came following the Spirit. A tongue prayer language, not of this world, is the one benefit that everyone should receive. The other gifts, including tongues (of this world and sometimes not) and interpretation, are given at His will and timing.

Why everyone does not have this prayer language is a mystery. Perhaps fear, or feeling foolish speaking what seems to be jibberish. I did not receive it at first but I knew it to be true and consistantly sought God until I received. My wife started right at the moment they prayed for her. We must not use exercises though to try to loosen up someones tongue, I believe this is misguided. We should just pray in our tongue and if it comes then fine, and if not like me encourage them to keep seeking the tongue prayer language.

It should be the conclusive evidence but charity says “Come all who are thirsty and drink, for I will give you living water.” Those that come seeking must believe but who are we to decide this matter, so if one comes seeking and asks to be prayed over for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, then we believe that God gives them the Spirit in this manner whether or not they manifest a prayer language. Scripture teaches us that if we ask God for the Holy Spirit in this manner, He will give Him to us and would not give us a serpent or a rock, that is something false. Faith says a prayer language should be there, but love which is greater gives people grace so we are not divided and can all share in this wonderful renewal.