The Christian ethic vs the Catholic ethic

[Verisimilitude]

Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton; Christian politicians endorse abortion-on-demand at any stage of pregnancy as a individual personal right that should be protected by law to the point of wanting to force medical professionals opposed to abortion to provide abortive information/services despite consciencous objections or moral opt-out laws.

Sarah Palin and Mike Huckabee; Christian politicians oppose abortion with exceptions.

I can tell pro-choice Catholic politicians (Biden, Pelosi, Rudy Giuliani, Gov Richardson of NM, Gov Ritter of CO, Gov (HHS nominee) Sebelius…) they are violating Church Doctrine by advocating abortion, casting public votes to fund abortions…, and do great harm to the Catholic ethic by staying Catholic in public office. In fact I would like to tell any ‘pro-choice Catholic’ to leave the Church if they will not reconcile their public, much less private views on abortion if they are to remain in public life.

People can easily change their religion in America and if non-Catholic Christians like Baptists, Lutherans, mega-church evangelicals…desire to embrace the religious freedom of America by accommodating non-Catholic positions like women clergy, homosexual clergy, abortion… when does something become non-Christian to the non-Catholic Christians?

Is it left up to the individual to decide what is part of their Christian ethic and what isn’t?

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton; Christian politicians endorse abortion-on-demand at any stage of pregnancy as a individual personal right that should be protected by law to the point of wanting to force medical professionals opposed to abortion to provide abortive information/services despite consciencous objections or moral opt-out laws.

Sarah Palin and Mike Huckabee; Christian politicians oppose abortion with exceptions.

I can tell pro-choice Catholic politicians (Biden, Pelosi, Rudy Giuliani, Gov Richardson of NM, Gov Ritter of CO, Gov (HHS nominee) Sebelius…) they are violating Church Doctrine by advocating abortion, casting public votes to fund abortions…, and do great harm to the Catholic ethic by staying Catholic in public office. In fact I would like to tell any ‘pro-choice Catholic’ to leave the Church if they will not reconcile their public, much less private views on abortion if they are to remain in public life.

People can easily change their religion in America and if non-Catholic Christians like Baptists, Lutherans, mega-church evangelicals…desire to embrace the religious freedom of America by accommodating non-Catholic positions like women clergy, homosexual clergy, abortion… when does something become non-Christian to the non-Catholic Christians?

Is it left up to the individual to decide what is part of their Christian ethic and what isn’t?

I know this is going to raise some hackles on our non-Catholic visitors, but I mean this with sincerity and not as an attack… but isn’t this sort of splintering the logical result of the principle that the bible alone is all we need as the rule of faith?

How do you sola scriptura Christians correct someone like this when he or she claims to have prayed about an issue and then followed his conviction in a manner that you see as contrary to the word of God. And if this person asserts there is no contradiction of God’s word by their decision to allow abortion, gay marriage, stem cell research, etc., is there any place you can go to resolve your dispute over what the bible teaches on a particular moral point like abortion, stem cell research, euthanasia, etc.?

And, believe me, I’m not trying to take the moral high ground. I’m sure you hear Catholics lamenting the fact that - even though we DO have a place to take our wayward Catholic politicians who disregard Church teaching on these issues - there has been little done to stop Catholics in public life from taking a dissenting view for political expediency. The shame is all the more for us Catholics, who have the Church with teaching authority but have leaders who quail in fear - with only a few notable exceptions.

My hope is that the coming persecutions will blow away the chaff, and strengthen the resolve of the remaining good Catholics to stand up and shout the truth from the rooftops, even when it means attacks upon the Church, or Catholic politicians losing fat campaign contributions or even government seats. We should stop compromising the truth, speak plain, and trust in God’s love.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[ralphinal]

Even though I am Catholic, I am going to take another side

You cannot judge a faith system based on American politicians. Too many of them claim to have morals until it is time to vote or keep their pants up.

In general, Americans seem to have a strong moral character when it is someone else doing something wrong and a weaker one when it is themselves. The only exception is when the actual thing does not effect them.

“Those people” or “those types” are rallying cries in America.

Now, at some point, if you say you believe something, your actions will either proove that you do or proove that you do not. These politicians are shown as not really following their faith, and no one at all seems to care.

 

[losh14]

Is it left up to the individual to decide what is part of their Christian ethic and what isn’t?

Speaking in general, ethics should be grounded on some underlying principle. Ethics are to morality as doing relates to believing; one must fulfill the other, and if it isn’t we can say that the person is unethical in that he or she displays a lack of ethics.

Christian ethics should be grounded in Christian morality, which is rooted in Christian theology, and while there is in this world a disagreement on the entirety of that theology, those who profess to adhere to a specific morality should demonstrate their adherence by their actions.

Is there really a Christian theology that defends abortion-on-demand? Does it have a name, clergy that identify with it, literature that promulgates it, perhaps even a denominational name that forms a mental construct around its more abstract features? If there is not, then it can only be called a Christian theology if the politician espousing it is named Christ, as in that this is their personal theology.

I think it is more apt to call a Pro-Choice, Pro-Social Justice, Pro-Homosexual Marriage, Pro-Relativistic stance Liberalism, because it has more in common with American Liberalism than it does with Christianity. The politician may individually espouse Christianity, but their public life does not reflect this. It is like John Kerry had said when talking about Catholic morality and his public life, that his Catholic upbringing would not define the moral character of his tenure in office. When I heard this, and realized that John Kerry meant that the separation of Church and State was a separation delineated even in the individual, that’s when he lost my vote.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Even though I am Catholic, I am going to take another side

You cannot judge a faith system based on American politicians. Too many of them claim to have morals until it is time to vote or keep their pants up.

In general, Americans seem to have a strong moral character when it is someone else doing something wrong and a weaker one when it is themselves. The only exception is when the actual thing does not effect them.

Many Americans wrongly think the 1st Amendment requires a person to divorce or suppress their faith to be in public life or even speak in public forums.

 

[reteeks21]

This is not a Sola Scriptura thing. It is a person’s inability to accept the moral teachings of Christ found in the Bible. You can’t blame an idea like SS when what they (people who support un-Christian things) say they’ve been “told” isn’t even in the Bible. That makes no sense. SS says that if it’s not in the Bible then “no” to it. Abortion and homosexual clergy aren’t there, so, duh, don’t do/accept it. Those that do are not accepting scripture. They are blinded by other things, just like catholics like Biden, Pelosi, Richardson, etc.

 

[cathopologist]

Personally, i think Americans should refuse to acknowledge any politician who claims to be a Christian (never mind a Catholic) and pro-choice. No such thing as a “pro-choice Catholic” or a “pro-choice Christian”. Was Jesus pro-choice? He didn’t shoo kids away nor preached about aborting pregnancies. I find it disappointing that American citizens continue to acknowledge such politicians even exist. It isn’t difficult to spot a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

 

[ralphinal]

Many Americans wrongly think the 1st Amendment requires a person to divorce or suppress their faith to be in public life or even speak in public forums.

You are so correct. It says that the government cannot do it. I can use whatever means I want to choose a candidate, and I can expect one to hold certain values if I want.

 

[NDfan]

I know this is going to raise some hackles on our non-Catholic visitors, but I mean this with sincerity and not as an attack… but isn’t this sort of splintering the logical result of the principle that the bible alone is all we need as the rule of faith?

How do you sola scriptura Christians correct someone like this when he or she claims to have prayed about an issue and then followed his conviction in a manner that you see as contrary to the word of God. And if this person asserts there is no contradiction of God’s word by their decision to allow abortion, gay marriage, stem cell research, etc., is there any place you can go to resolve your dispute over what the bible teaches on a particular moral point like abortion, stem cell research, euthanasia, etc.?

And, believe me, I’m not trying to take the moral high ground. I’m sure you hear Catholics lamenting the fact that - even though we DO have a place to take our wayward Catholic politicians who disregard Church teaching on these issues - there has been little done to stop Catholics in public life from taking a dissenting view for political expediency. The shame is all the more for us Catholics, who have the Church with teaching authority but have leaders who quail in fear - with only a few notable exceptions.

My hope is that the coming persecutions will blow away the chaff, and strengthen the resolve of the remaining good Catholics to stand up and shout the truth from the rooftops, even when it means attacks upon the Church, or Catholic politicians losing fat campaign contributions or even government seats. We should stop compromising the truth, speak plain, and trust in God’s love.

Peace,
-Robert

Robert this really has nothing to do with Sola Scriptura. Actually if we follow scriptural principles then most of these issues rectify themselves. Abortion for instance is flat out murder and there is no room for private interpretation of scripture to say anything contrary. I don’t care how much someone prayed over it I’ll never believe the Holy Spirit guided them in support of it. All issues we face today can have a clear stance associated with them by following scripture.

PEACE

 

[Verisimilitude]

Personally, i think Americans should refuse to acknowledge any politician who claims to be a Christian (never mind a Catholic) and pro-choice.

I wish that it was so. It’s Luthers fault. His split with the Church populated much of early America and the liberalism of theology with seeming limitless resources of the new world has changed Christianity. Not everything is bad of course but this liberalism now is different and new. Its becoming secular to be christian and affects Catholics.

 

[losh14]

No such thing as a “pro-choice Catholic” or a “pro-choice Christian”. Was Jesus pro-choice?

It took me a long time to see the clarity of this position. It also took a really good conversation with an honest man, Catholic convert and good friend who happens to be a lawyer, to explain to me that the right to privacy is erroneous if it concludes that babies must die so that the police can’t kick my door down without a search warrant.

 

[losh14]

I wish that it was so. It’s Luthers fault. His split with the Church populated much of early America and the liberalism of theology with seeming limitless resources of the new world has changed Christianity. Not everything is bad of course but this liberalism now is different and new. Its becoming secular to be christian and affects Catholics.

It’s the hardness of men’s hearts that is at the root of both. I don’t think that Luther initially intended to have such a split. There were potent political factors at play, as well as the temptations of land, power and money. Luther could not and did not do it on his own, though that does not absolve him of culpability.

Perhaps a renewed ecumenical effort could force our democratically elected leadership to accept a unified Christian view and embrace it sincerely under pain of being ousted at the vote.

 

[Patrick_Cox]

The discussion in this thread is perhaps the most significant issue affecting America today - the problem is that so so few Americans recognise this. You can not vote for Obama and claim to be anti-abortion in the same breath. You have to stand against abortion by voting against it! The obliteration or holocaust of the unborn child is THE issue that Americans need to fight for at every possible opportunity. More so than any other!

The fact that America is a leading global superpower gives it far more responsibility as it sets an example to the rest of the world in many ways. It needs to recognise this responsibility and act accordingly. I would urge those of you reading this to use every available tool to stand up against abortion, from practical means through to ongoing prayer and more prayer. America is a country that proudly espouses it’s liberal freedoms. Sadly it is exactly these liberal freedoms that are in many cases leading to it’s spiritual downfall. As Americans, perhaps more than any other nation in the world, you need to be alive to this NOW before it is too late… Satan wants nothing more than to cultivate within each and every human being the belief that their freedom can allow them to do as they like. And in America more than perhaps any other nation, Satan has been most successful.

Pray for your leaders as much as you can and never stop praying that God will open up the eyes of those who are blind to the profound seriousness of the sin of abortion…

 

[LilyM]

Please, picky point here, but don’t say ‘Christian v Catholic’ like you do in the title - it gives the impression that even Catholics don’t consider ourselves to be Christians. :tsktsk:

So please, in future, ‘Catholic v non-Catholic’ is just fine.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Please, picky point here, but don’t say ‘Christian v Catholic’ like you do in the title - it gives the impression that even Catholics don’t consider ourselves to be Christians. :tsktsk:

So please, in future, ‘Catholic v non-Catholic’ is just fine.

I make the distinction in the body of my original post, but when the larger society has accepted ‘pro-choice Christians’ as uncontradictory to the Christian ethic then Christian has come to mean something else.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Robert this really has nothing to do with Sola Scriptura. Actually if we follow scriptural principles then most of these issues rectify themselves. Abortion for instance is flat out murder and there is no room for private interpretation of scripture to say anything contrary. I don’t care how much someone prayed over it I’ll never believe the Holy Spirit guided them in support of it. All issues we face today can have a clear stance associated with them by following scripture.

PEACE

I agree with your interpretation of Scripture - that abortion is the unjustified killing of an innocent. But there are many who think abortion can be an acceptable act… citing from Scripture to support their permissive belief based on the general notion that “God will still love me” or God is the God who forgives, etc."

The fundamental problem for non-Catholics is SS because the confusion arises where two people cite to the same set of Scriptures for support of their incompatible positions. Who resolves the dispute as to what scripture supports? For Catholics, it is the Church. For non-Catholic Christians (Orthodox excluded), in practice the ultimate authority is one’s personal conscience regardless of the state of its formation by Scripture. Thus, the logical result of SS is “You interpret your bible while I interpret mine, and we’ll just have to agree to disagree, because I must be true to my conscience as God calls to me.”

When Catholics dissent from the teaching of the Church on issues like abortion, they claim they are following their conscience, but it is clear that they are not following what the Church teaches from Scripture. There is an authority to tell Catholics their consciences are not correctly informed on the issue, i.e. that they need to reexamine their conscience pray for guidance and wisdom to resolve their conflict with Church teaching.

No such mechanism is present in a SS paradigm. Instead, two people without authority beyond their own skins end up talking past each other, while relying on different passages of the same set of Scriptural texts. That is the root of the problem IMHO.

Again, I’m not saying that Catholic politicians who are pro-choice are any better or worse than pro-choice non-Catholic Christians. But at least it can (and should) be made clear that pro-choice Catholics are not in conformity with the teachings of their professed faith. Our tragedy as Catholics - one we must own and rectify - is the lack of action taken by the bishops in the US against these politicians who use their Catholicity to curry favor when it suits them, then turn their back on the Church’s teaching when it becomes politically expedient. This inaction gives Catholics the false notion that a “conscientous objector” status on life issues like abortion has some sort of moral credibility. IMHO it does NOT. The Church needs to stop turning a blind eye towards ignorant Catholic politicans and start publicly reprimanding them for their ignorant and untenable positions. If these persons, once informed, refuse to change their position, they should be publicly invited to leave the Church, or face excommunication.

The tragedy where non-Catholic Christians are concerned, is that their misinformed consciences (whether well-intentioned or not) also give moral credibility to the idea that an abortion is an acceptable option. And there is no authority to correct them. Only fellow believers that have no authority, although they may very well have the true teaching on life issues like abortion. And I am not discouraging fellow believers from trying to persuade a change of opinion from these men and women in office. My point is that you have no real authority to effect that change.

The state of politics in this country makes me want to vomit. Mother Church needs to administer some “spankings” to some of her sons and daughters in office. Her long delay on this front has created rebellious and ignorant children. And the rest of us need to persuade the lawmakers - by hook and by crook - that they are simply wrong on the life issues. Otherwise, millions will continue to die.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Patrick_Cox]

Excellent post Robert! You make the point well.

The seriousness of the abortion issue absolutely can NOT be underestimated!

Patrick

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

IOW:
Matthew 18:[15] "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
[16] But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
[17] If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

See also 1 Cor 5…

Is there any Protestant assembly that really follows these words of scripture when one of their members is living in habitual sin and refuses to repent?

This is the error of religious & moral subjectivism. That religious and moral truths are subjective only to the individual who receives and interprets them. SS is part of this. It leaves the interpretation of religion and morality, not upon truths that have been handed on from one proven successor to another, but merely to the imagination of the individual believer. Instead of these proven men guiding, teaching, and correcting believers(as we see in the Bible), we now have this enlightenment democratic philosophy where it is the congregation-the masses-which dictates what is taught and believed and the pastor is just their representative and is there to reaffirm that which they already know and believe.

Rom 13:[1] Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
[2]** Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. **
[3] For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval,
[4] for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer.
[5] **Therefore one must be subject, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience. **

[6] For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing.
[7] Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, **respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due. **

The issue of authority is THE issue that separates Catholic Christianity from Protestant Christianity. The Catholic Church recognizes in the bible that Jesus gave His authority-authority that is rightfully His-to those proven men that He had chosen out of the world. Those men, guided by teh Spirit, in turn chose other proven men and gave them their authority that they received from Christ(2 Tim 2:2), and so on. Even though Christianity suffered horrible persecusions from the end of the first century all the way into the beginning of the fourth century; where it was forced underground, many of its bishops and leaders were martyred along with many other believers, many of the church’s books and records were burned during the reign of Diocletian. Even though the church was on the brink of being completely eliminated(which I don’t believe the Holy Spirit would have ever allowed to happen), it never lost its connection to the original Twelve through this succession. When one Bishop was beheaded or burned, another took his place. And this is most true about the bishop of the church in Rome(see Eusebius’ Ecclesiastical History).

findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20050508/ai_n14617400

Protestantism, that is those who follow the idea of Protestantism, reject the notion of any authority outside the bible. IOW, you don’t trust God. And you don’t trust in those whom God has placed over you. You would rather rely on your own understanding of the scriptures(Prov 3:5) instead of recognizing in humility that we don’t have all the answers and submitting to the traditional understanding of objective religious and moral truths because “for he is God’s servant for your good.” Instead every believer is their own bishop of their own church.

By saying that you only accept the bible as authoritative, you at the same time reject the bible and what it says about the authority of those God has appointed.

Then what continues from SS is that one cannot be an authority over another in interpreting the Bible. Subjective interpretation leads to subjective morality. Objective religious and moral truth is no longer such but instead merely “essential and non-essential doctrine.”

Again, I’m not saying that the Catholic Church doesn’t have its dissenters. But we do have a standard to judge them by and an authority by which to deal with them.

Protestantism has this authority too if it would just follow the scriptures. Yet if it did that, then it would have to recognize that its foundational pillars are and always were fundamentally flawed. Which would mean that they would have to recognize that the Catholic Church was right all along.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Mother Church needs to administer some “spankings” to some of her sons and daughters in office. Her long delay on this front has created rebellious and ignorant children. And the rest of us need to persuade the lawmakers - by hook and by crook - that they are simply wrong on the life issues. Otherwise, millions will continue to die.

Peace,
Robert

I would like to speak to that directly. I don’t know if we should expect the Church to do more than it has done. I think we (laity) should be more vocal and do more because the Church is clear in its teaching and its purpose is not to pass judgements exactly, but to inform and lead by example. Particularly as US law is concerned the Church needs to be cautious.

In that regard I have started to think of an idea for the average Catholic to speak to Catholic public officials. Below is the content of a postcard I made:

The Honorable Nancy Pelosi
United States House of Representatives
235 Cannon House Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20515-0508

Speaker Pelosi,

I would like to urge a reconciliation with respect to your public position and private faith on the human rights issue of abortion.

The 1st Amendment does not demand a person divorce their faith to be in public life but rather protects the individual to live their faith without government interference.

Our shared Catholic faith demands that we not give material support to abortion. We are free to conclude if war is just, if taxes be collected, or if healthcare/education is a right for illegal immigrants much less citizens, but the protection of all human life from conception to natural death is not negotiable for Catholics particularly.

As a Catholic, it shows me that you lack personal integrity and character; but as a politician, disbelief and/or hubris.

If you will not change you public, much less personal policy on abortion then please leave the Catholic Church. You are doing great harm to the Church by staying in public office as a Catholic.

Our civil laws protect your right to change your religion unlike those many nations ‘we’ support in the Middle East.

Please stop the religious hypocrisy if you are unwilling to stop the political duplicity. If a declared Catholic cannot be trusted on the abortion issue, they cannot be trusted.

Other addresses:
Vice President Joseph Biden
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest
Washington, DC 20500

Health and Human Services nominee
Governor Kathleen Sebelius
Capitol, 300 SW 10th Ave., Ste. 212S
Topeka, KS 66612-1590

Governor Bill Ritter
136 State Capitol
Denver, CO 80203-1792

I showed this to my parish a few days ago to ask if I could distribute them there. No word yet. It could be re-worded to be more broad and ‘Christian’. Other thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated. Critque to the language of the post card is welcome.

 

[Verisimilitude]

My thoughts to other prominent Catholics, same post card type idea:

Chief Justice John Roberts
United States Supreme Court Building
Washington, D.C. 20543

Justice Roberts,

Please accept this note with the understanding my ignorance is that of a common person. Public information lists your faith as Catholic and because of that I must ask the following with the assumption you are as devout as the common Catholic such as myself:

I cannot understand how a Catholic in your position of authority on the law does not take action on the travesty of legalized abortion.

Reasonable and rational arguments against legalized abortion range from the scientific which does not dispute a living and unique human being at conception to the obvious legal disregard and abandonment for that human beings human right to liberty and privacy.

I am asking you to exercise your lawful authority to legitimately set aside the seeming activist decision that has influenced generations of citizens to believe it is a civil right to kill human children on a whim- and do so with extreme regularity.

Science confirms what our faith long declared true. It is a human rights issue and simply by declaring ourselves Catholic it becomes a matter of character and integrity.

Something is very wrong when our civil law protects the violent act of abortion labeled as a compassionate choice that empowers women.

I trust you think that is false.

Respectfully,

Justice Clarence Thomas
United States Supreme Court Building
Washington, D.C. 20543

Justice Samuel Alito
United States Supreme Court Building
Washington, D.C. 20543

Justice Antonin Scalia
United States Supreme Court Building
Washington, D.C. 20543

Justice Anthony Kennedy
United States Supreme Court Building
Washington, D.C. 20543