The Christian vs smart people

[Pugsly]

Perhaps…

FAITH…is a way of seeing into previously hidden layers of reality…and therefore is knowledge on steriods.
WISDOM is understanding how knowledge fits into this larger reality.
CYNICISM…is lots of knowledge without wisdom.

A common phenomena on internet forums is wise Christians trying to share deeper realities with cynics. It serves to both edify other Christians…but, sadly, can harden the unbeliever in cynicism.

 

[tonyrey]

A common phenomena on internet forums is wise Christians trying to share deeper realities with cynics. It serves to both edify other Christians…but, sadly, can harden the unbeliever in cynicism.

You could apply that criticism to Jesus and His apostles!

 

[BrunoMaria]

Perhaps… FAITH…is a way of seeing into previously hidden layers of reality…and therefore is knowledge on steriods

It’s a bit high upper class English to me - I don’t know what steriods are - but I should imagine; stereotype answers (?)

Well, It’s certain, that the Christian way of thinking is a lot wider than all ways of secular thinking. That’s what St. Paul indicated in many verses; one of which is Phil 4,7: The peace of God passes all understanding.

Perhaps… WISDOM is understanding how knowledge fits into this larger reality.

Wisdom passes all secular understanding, when embedded in belief. Nobody is able to own, nor to gain belief by himself. It takes God’d grace to open one’s mind for belief, as Jesus said in many verses, and John stated in Joh 12,37-40

Perhaps… CYNICISM…is lots of knowledge without wisdom.

Precisely! But here you got to differ where this cynism is rooted. If in atheism, it’s nothing than the barking of a dog. If in Christianity, it’s selfe defence against bad-mouth-talk in the obvious logic of belief, for sensitive and loving words are rebuked by convinced atheists, who even often answer in blasphemy.

A common phenomena on internet forums is wise Christians trying to share deeper realities with cynics. It serves to both edify other Christians…but, sadly, can harden the unbeliever in cynicism.

Not really and not always. I for instance often heard the word: “God is a fake and a lie”. Suchlike atheist talk refusing all talks started in love and common sense, is not open for sensitive communicating and never wants to listen, just like those in Acts 7,57. In such case a cynical answer like “you are a fake and a lie” as you neither really live nor are able to reason, is understandable

yours
Bruno

 

[BrunoMaria]

But I forgot to ask and I was wondering when I first saw this post:
Why dod you call disbelievers SMART PEOPLE ???
I see them as simply DULL PEOPLE. Anything but smart…

 

[Glomung]

Smart people - I don’t think so.
Not to paint with too broad a brush, but in this culture stupidity rules the day.
Listen to any supposedly well educated, bright athiest for more than a moment or two and invariably the most illogical, presumptive, stupid bunk will come rolling out of their mouths.
At least an agnostic is honest enough to say “I don’t know”.
An athiest is just not paying attention and is too arrogant to do anything about it.

 

[cheezey]

But I forgot to ask and I was wondering when I first saw this post:
Why dod you call disbelievers SMART PEOPLE ???
I see them as simply DULL PEOPLE. Anything but smart…

Yes, I was thinking that the title was inadvertantly less than optimal, as I am a smart person ( ) AND a Christian. Did OP mean disbelievers as in non Christians who are dull? I hope not. I would not call anyone dull, disbelievers or otherwise; that’s not nice. The Dali Lama is but one example of a disbelieving non Christian but wholly believing of his faith, who is incredibly smart and anything but dull. Funny, too! And I wouldn’t call disbelievers smart people, or smart people disbelievers. Some smart people are disbelievers, believers of another faith, as well as Christian. And the list goes on and on and on…
Smart people just are.
Being enlightened by the bounties of Jesus is another matter.

Blessings

 

[wanstronian]

Perhaps…

FAITH…is a way of seeing into previously hidden layers of reality…and therefore is knowledge on steriods.
WISDOM is understanding how knowledge fits into this larger reality.
CYNICISM…is lots of knowledge without wisdom.

A common phenomena on internet forums is wise Christians trying to share deeper realities with cynics. It serves to both edify other Christians…but, sadly, can harden the unbeliever in cynicism.

A nice idea, but reminds me of Dunning-Kruger.

FAITH… is an unwarranted belief in an unproven phenomenon. From the OED: faith : strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

I think it’s entirely natural for those who hold such unwarranted convictions, to also believe that doing so makes them somehow wiser than those who don’t; that it gives them some sort of magic insight into the way of things. The two beliefs support each other, and each makes the other seem valid.

Your definition of WISDOM seems reasonable to me.

CYNICISM is just a pessimistic or distrustful outlook on life, or on a particular subject. It’s nothing to do with knowledge or wisdom per se.

I sort of accept your final paragraph. I think, with one or two exceptions, forums such as CAF are full of Christians (not necessarily wise - there is no correlation between wisdom and Christianity, or any other religion) who genuinely want to share their beliefs and interpretations of life with others. I also accept that in the whole, such sharing is confirming to others who hold the same belief. The problem is that that those who don’t share the beliefs are unlikely to be swayed by the theist’s arbitrary explanations of phenomen x, y or z. There are too many questions that can be asked, that cannot be satisfactorily answered by apologists.

Those who disbelieve generally do so because of that thorn in the theist’s side, the lack of plausible evidence for the claims of religion. If history and science have taught us anything, it’s that unquestioning belief in arbitrary claims is not an intelligent way to live life - however emotionally satisfying such belief might be to those so inclined.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

A common phenomena on internet forums is wise Christians trying to share deeper realities with cynics. It serves to both edify other Christians…but, sadly, can harden the unbeliever in cynicism.

That’s not restricted to internet forums. That’s people in some situations in general. You are describing what is known as “Confirmation bias.”
wiki:

…]Confirmation biases contribute to overconfidence in personal beliefs and can maintain or strengthen beliefs in the face of contrary evidence…]

You can find instances of this in all types of polarized situations: religion, politics, so on. Especially if there’s an element of emotion involved.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Wanstronian

Those who disbelieve generally do so because of that thorn in the theist’s side, the lack of plausible evidence for the claims of religion. If history and science have taught us anything, it’s that unquestioning belief in arbitrary claims is not an intelligent way to live life - however emotionally satisfying such belief might be to those so inclined.

This applies equally to the atheist because of that willful thorn in the atheist’s side.

The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” Psalm 14

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[Sarcelle]

A nice idea, but reminds me of Dunning-Kruger.

FAITH… is an unwarranted belief in an unproven phenomenon. From the OED: faith : strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

I think it’s entirely natural for those who hold such unwarranted convictions, to also believe that doing so makes them somehow wiser than those who don’t; that it gives them some sort of magic insight into the way of things. The two beliefs support each other, and each makes the other seem valid.

Your definition of WISDOM seems reasonable to me.

CYNICISM is just a pessimistic or distrustful outlook on life, or on a particular subject. It’s nothing to do with knowledge or wisdom per se.

I sort of accept your final paragraph. I think, with one or two exceptions, forums such as CAF are full of Christians (not necessarily wise - there is no correlation between wisdom and Christianity, or any other religion) who genuinely want to share their beliefs and interpretations of life with others. I also accept that in the whole, such sharing is confirming to others who hold the same belief. The problem is that that those who don’t share the beliefs are unlikely to be swayed by the theist’s arbitrary explanations of phenomen x, y or z. There are too many questions that can be asked, that cannot be satisfactorily answered by apologists.

Those who disbelieve generally do so because of that thorn in the theist’s side, the lack of plausible evidence for the claims of religion. If history and science have taught us anything, it’s that unquestioning belief in arbitrary claims is not an intelligent way to live life - however emotionally satisfying such belief might be to those so inclined.

You know there are such things called postulates in mathematics. too. Postulates are assumed true without proof. From postulates, one can build theorems. One example of a geometric postulate is that any given line contains at least two points. Contrary to popular belief, not all principles in mathematics or logic are arrived at deductively. Theoretical physics also have models which are based on mathematical postulates.

You stated that it is entirely natural for people who hold unwarranted convictions to feel wiser than those who don’t. Prove it. Define what is an unwarranted conviction.

I agree with your definition of cynicism. Cynics are disappointed idealists.

 

[Sarcelle]

A nice idea, but reminds me of Dunning-Kruger.

Those who disbelieve generally do so because of that thorn in the theist’s side, the lack of plausible evidence for the claims of religion. If history and science have taught us anything, it’s that unquestioning belief in arbitrary claims is not an intelligent way to live life - however emotionally satisfying such belief might be to those so inclined.

You do know science is a useful tool for learning about the natural world. It says nothing about the existence or non- existence of the supernatural. It is like trying to use a thermometer to prove the non-existence of electrical charges. A thermometer is a useful tool for measuring temperature but it says nothing about the existence of electrons or protons.

So you cannot say anything about science disproving the supernatural world. In fact, proving or disproving the existence of the supernatural is above the pay grade of science.

In fact science also does not adequately describe the natural world either. One example I give you is the inadequacy of science is the n-body problem by which an arbitrary number of celestial objects move and interact with each other. An adequate scientific model for celestial bodies numbering more than two is impossible for science. That’s right impossible, yet the solar system exist. I think science is a useful tool but I wouldn’t count on it to define the world “in toto” for me. It has too many limitations.

 

[InJesusItrust]

I would say that logic does not help finding a profound truth but help one prove the truth to others. Often the truth is something you stumble into that opens your eyes. Logic helps when you encounter the truth.

 

[Sarcelle]

I would say that logic does not help finding a profound truth but help one prove the truth to others. Often the truth is something you stumble into that opens your eyes. Logic helps when you encounter the truth.

Logic is just as good as the axioms you use.

 

[InJesusItrust]

Wouldn’t a mathematician notice a pattern that seems true before attempting to prove it? I am not even talking of axioms, but the limitation of logic in deducing new theorems itself.

When an atheist assumes that he can only accept truth via logic, he closes himself to discovering the truth. He can only be logical when he has already found truth by seeking with an open heart.

 

[wanstronian]

Wanstronian

Those who disbelieve generally do so because of that thorn in the theist’s side, the lack of plausible evidence for the claims of religion. If history and science have taught us anything, it’s that unquestioning belief in arbitrary claims is not an intelligent way to live life - however emotionally satisfying such belief might be to those so inclined.

This applies equally to the atheist because of that willful thorn in the atheist’s side.

The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” Psalm 14

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Thank you - I believe you’ve demonstrated my point exactly.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Wanstronian

**Thank you - I believe you’ve demonstrated my point exactly. **

You’re most welcome!

 

[Charlemagne_II]

“The atheists are for the most part impudent and misguided scholars who reason badly, and who not being able to understand the creation, the origin of evil, and other difficulties, have recourse to the hypothesis of the eternity of things and of inevitability….That was how things went with the Roman Senate which was almost entirely composed of atheists in theory and in practice, that is to say, who believed in neither a Providence nor a future life; this senate was an assembly of philosophers, of sensualists and ambitious men, all very dangerous men, who ruined the republic." From Voltaire’s essay “On Atheism”

 

[wanstronian]

“The atheists are for the most part impudent and misguided scholars who reason badly, and who not being able to understand the creation, the origin of evil, and other difficulties, have recourse to the hypothesis of the eternity of things and of inevitability….That was how things went with the Roman Senate which was almost entirely composed of atheists in theory and in practice, that is to say, who believed in neither a Providence nor a future life; this senate was an assembly of philosophers, of sensualists and ambitious men, all very dangerous men, who ruined the republic." From Voltaire’s essay “On Atheism”

You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that quoting an arbitrary 18th century philosopher who happens to share your views on a specific subject, adds weight to your argument!?

 

[tonyrey]

A common phenomena on internet forums is wise Christians trying to share deeper realities with cynics. It serves to both edify other Christians…but, sadly, can harden the unbeliever in cynicism.

You are assuming the unbeliever is not hardened already! Those who reject Christianity undoubtedly reject the reality of the sublime love Jesus demonstrated by his life, teaching and acceptance of torture and execution on the Cross. Anyone who dismisses all this as insignificant is extremely cynical and incapable of appreciating the truth…

 

[Charlemagne_II]

wanstronian

You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that quoting an arbitrary 18th century philosopher who happens to share your views on a specific subject, adds weight to your argument!?

Perhaps I was laboring under the misapprehension that you would like to learn a little history.