The church and alcoholism

  • Thread starter Thread starter Mgray82
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Disorders can come from any source. They can be sexual in nature or they can come from substances, but in every case, they always seem to become uncontrolable either from abuse OR from genetics.

Substance abuse and homosexuality can both be viewed this way -as something that can be genetically inherited or aquired through experience… same goes for any heterosexual addicted to sex… It’s just another disorder. Who knows, that could be genetic too.🤷
 
1 Corinthians: 6: 9-10

**Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, 10 Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God. **

I think that covers both drunkards and homosexuals.

If these acts keep you from “the kingdom,” that implies the acts are a CHOICE.

God would not damn someone over something which was beyond the person’s control.

Regardless of what pop psychology would have you believe.
What’s a “railer”…?
 
The Holy Father’s point was that the appearance of bread and wine is
retained, precisely to protect the sacrament from becoming an act of cannibalism.


Yea, I kinda don’t think he said or implied that.
Thanks for a good example of internet information.
Actually, that’s exactly what he said.
So a disorder takes place… And we should be careful not to demonize people with disorders of all likes, which is why it bothers me how society tries to exclude gays from being “disordered” -as if having a disorder is the worst thing in the world… 🤷 We all have disorders of one kind or another, we all have addictions, we all have weaknesses, we’re all imperfect…

That seems odd -to use a common term, and then claim that the meaning of the term is not the common one but an ancient meaning.

But i still dont get why is it so important to avoid having a “disorder”…? Are those with disorders any less human than those without? I think sometimes they are, and that’s the real problem we face.
The problem comes from the fact that the word “disorder” is extremely broad. One can apply it in its worse meaning or its best.

When it comes to addictions, the Church does not apply the term “disorder” in a pejorative sense. In that context, it’s using the term to describe a health problem.

Someone quoted from the scriptures and also wrote a very dismissive comment making reference to “pop psychology”. I’d like to mention that when it comes to scientific research, especially in the field of healthcare, the Church has always led the way.

When the Church accepts alcoholism as an illness and does not condemn it as a sin, one can take it to the bank that she has studied this very carefully and knows for certain the difference between drunkenness, to which the Scriptures speak and an illness. The Apostles knew nothing about mental health. They did not sort things out this way. They could only address observable behavior. They could not address root causes. They lacked to tools to do so. We have those tools.

It is those tools that help us separate the sin of drunkenness and alcoholism. This is not new to the Catholic Church. Augustinian Sisters in Akron, OH and Capuchin Franciscans in Detroit, MI have been doing this since the first half of the 20th century. The first person to refer to alcoholism as an illness, was the Franciscan, Fr. Solanus Casey during the 1940s. Among his many miracles while living, one of them was healing alcoholics. Sister Ignatia of the Sisters of St. Augustine in Akron, was the first hospital administrator to open the doors to alcoholic patients, not sinners, before WW II.

I don’t know about pop psychology, but it’s certainly pop theology to take a scripture passage out of context and apply it to a group of people independent of how the Church uses it and independent of the theological systems that go with its applications. Usually, this is done by people who want to find a reason to judge and condemn another. The use Sacred Scripture to justify their cruelty.

We must stay away from that kind of behavior. It is tempting, but it is also dangerous. On such complex issues, always think with the Church and one will be on safe ground.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
Actually, that’s exactly what he said.

The problem comes from the fact that the word “disorder” is extremely broad. One can apply it in its worse meaning or its best.

When it comes to addictions, the Church does not apply the term “disorder” in a pejorative sense. In that context, it’s using the term to describe a health problem.

Someone quoted from the scriptures and also wrote a very dismissive comment making reference to “pop psychology”. I’d like to mention that when it comes to scientific research, especially in the field of healthcare, the Church has always led the way.

When the Church accepts alcoholism as an illness and does not condemn it as a sin, one can take it to the bank that she has studied this very carefully and knows for certain the difference between drunkenness, to which the Scriptures speak and an illness. The Apostles knew nothing about mental health. They did not sort things out this way. They could only address observable behavior. They could not address root causes. They lacked to tools to do so. We have those tools.

It is those tools that help us separate the sin of drunkenness and alcoholism. This is not new to the Catholic Church. Augustinian Sisters in Akron, OH and Capuchin Franciscans in Detroit, MI have been doing this since the first half of the 20th century. The first person to refer to alcoholism as an illness, was the Franciscan, Fr. Solanus Casey during the 1940s. Among his many miracles while living, one of them was healing alcoholics. Sister Ignatia of the Sisters of St. Augustine in Akron, was the first hospital administrator to open the doors to alcoholic patients, not sinners, before WW II.

I don’t know about pop psychology, but it’s certainly pop theology to take a scripture passage out of context and apply it to a group of people independent of how the Church uses it and independent of the theological systems that go with its applications. Usually, this is done by people who want to find a reason to judge and condemn another. The use Sacred Scripture to justify their cruelty.

We must stay away from that kind of behavior. It is tempting, but it is also dangerous. On such complex issues, always think with the Church and one will be on safe ground.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
You provide absolutely no links to substantiate anything you claim.

I, on the other hand, provide the Holy Scripture to substantiate what I claim. And, what I quoted is quite clear and unambiguous.

The Church, just as Christ, does not turn her back on sinners. Both seek the reformation of the sinner and ultimately his salvation. Ministering to substance abusers is praisworthy, and certainly within the pervue of Holy Mother Church. The Church also counsels those who have had abortions, those incarcerated in prisons and convicted of heinous crimes, those with sexually transmitted diseases, etc. This in no way indicates that the Chruch does not recognize the sinfulness of, and the culpability of , and the choices which lead to the need for ministration.

There are many and various opinions about the nature and cause of alcoholism among those in the medical community.

The disease model is one among many.

Clearly St. Paul, in his gospel to the Corinthians, has other ideas. This passage is the inspired Word of the Holy Ghost. It is unarguable. It is irrefutable.

It quite unambiguously states that drunkards will not enter the kingdom.

I’m going with that.
 
***"The Holy Father’s point was that the appearance of bread and wine is
retained, precisely to protect the sacrament from becoming an act of cannibalism.

Br. JR, FFV "***

I would really love to see a link to something that substantiates this statement.

The Holy Father never said anything even remotely like that, nor did he ever imply that. You will not find anything like this anywhere online or anywhere else. It simply did not happen.

This claim is actually laughable.
 
You provide absolutely no links to substantiate anything you claim.
As I tell the brothers under me, “It is not my job to do your research. My job is to teach.”
I, on the other hand, provide the Holy Scripture to substantiate what I claim. And, what I quoted is quite clear and unambiguous.
You’re providing scripture out of context.
This in no way indicates that the Chruch does not recognize the sinfulness of, and the culpability of , and the choices which lead to the need for ministration.
For culpability one must have freedom. The very meaning of addiction is the absence of freedom. In moral theology, one can be culpable of the sin that triggered the addiction and not culpable of the actions triggered by the addiction. The first action is a choice. The second is a drive, not a choice.
The disease model is one among many.
It is the one that the Catholic Church has used for more than 50 years since she first started to study addiction.
Clearly St. Paul, in his gospel to the Corinthians, has other ideas. This passage is the inspired Word of the Holy Ghost. It is unarguable. It is irrefutable.
St. Paul was not writing a science book, nor did he have any knowledge of mental health. He is addressing observable behavior. The Church finds no fault in his observation. Drunkenness is the natural outcome of an irresponsible choice, which often leads to people being hurt in some way and offensive to human dignity.

Though the alcoholic may be drunk and the effects are exactly the same, the difference lies in the diminished ability to choose. The greater the disability, the less the culpability. This is a moral principle that is classic. In each case, one has to determine the degree of freedom. Objectively, we say that an alcoholism is an illness, not sin per se, without denying that the origin can be sin.
It quite unambiguously states that drunkards will not enter the kingdom.
St. Paul also unambiguously says that women should shut up and put up, but we don’t subscribe to this literally. We look at it in context of his target audience and what was happening.

To take St. Paul separate from what the Church teaches about moral culpability is a regression to the Protestant model of “sola scriptura.” St. Paul does speak about drunkenness; but he does not give us a system to determine culpability. He gives us an objective moral statement. In order to determine when to apply it, we need the systems given to us by moral theology and the knowledge that we have acquired through science. It is for this reason that the Church has always promoted science. Even today, the Vatican invests millions of dollars on the science commission and to maintain labs and research stations around the world.

Once again, I encourage people to look at these issues through the eyes of the Church. Sola scriptura is a very dangerous proposal. As St. Paul said, scripture is not of private interpretation.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
It quite unambiguously states that drunkards will not enter the kingdom.
  • "St. Paul also unambiguously says that women should shut up and put up, but we don’t subscribe to this literally. We look at it in context of his target audience and what was happening.
To take St. Paul separate from what the Church teaches about moral culpability is a regression to the Protestant model of “sola scriptura.” St. Paul does speak about drunkenness; but he does not give us a system to determine culpability. He gives us an objective moral statement. In order to determine when to apply it, we need the systems given to us by moral theology and the knowledge that we have acquired through science. It is for this reason that the Church has always promoted science. Even today, the Vatican invests millions of dollars on the science commission and to maintain labs and research stations around the world.

Once again, I encourage people to look at these issues through the eyes of the Church. Sola scriptura is a very dangerous proposal. As St. Paul said, scripture is not of private interpretation.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

Saint Paul never said anything about anyone shutting up and putting up.

You are the one taking his words out of context.

*"Let me take us back to those words of St Paul, for even the most cursory look at them reveal that St Paul spends far more of his energy talking about what husbands should do, rather than what wives should do.

He starts his paragraph on relationships with the words: “Be subject to one another …” (v21). He speaks of the husband being the head (v23), and that they are to love their wives (v25) … as their own bodies (v28) … he who loves his wife loves himself (v28) … he nourishes and tenderly cares for it … (29).

There are two references to wives being subject to their husbands and another where they are to be subject to one another. It is noteworthy that there are no words to say that the wives should love their husbands!" *

From the Catechism of the Catholic Chruch:

2290 The virtue of temperance disposes us to avoid every kind of excess: the abuse of food, alcohol, tobacco, or medicine. Those incur grave guilt who, by drunkenness or a love of speed, endanger their own and others’ safety on the road, at sea, or in the air. [1809]

2291 The use of drugs inflicts very grave damage on human health and life. Their use, except on strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense. Clandestine production of and trafficking in drugs are scandalous practices. They constitute direct co-operation in evil, since they encourage people to practices gravely contrary to the moral law.

That pretty much summarizes the OFFICIAL view of the Chruch on alcoholism and substance abuse in general. You imply that one must adapt a disease model because everyone has been doing that for fifty years. This is simply untrue. It removes the locus of control from the individual and implies that alcoholics have no choice in the matter, “they’re sick.”

St. Paul’s message is exactly the opposite. He states that those who persist in sin will not see the Kingdom. He classifies drunkenness as a sin, which it clearly is. The CCC agrees with that sentiment entirely. **Granted, there may be less culpability as the person degenerates into habitual use and addiction, but that does not mean that this a hopeless situation which removes ALL culpability and choice. The words of the Bible are not to me dismissed. **

**
St. Augustine in one of his letters to St. Jerome:

For I confess to your Charity that I have learned to yield this respect and honour only to the canonical books of Scripture: of these alone do I most firmly believe that the authors were completely free from error. And if in these writings I am perplexed by anything which appears to me opposed to truth, I do not hesitate to suppose that either the MS. is faulty or the translator has not caught the meaning of what was said, or I myself have failed to understand it . . . I believe, my brother, that this is your own opinion as well as mine.1 **

Of course the Catholic Church has ALWAYS taught and continues to teach complete Scriptural inerrancy.

A proper understanding of the doctrine of biblical inerrancy is vital, since a defective view of this doctrine diminishes the power of the proclaimed Word of God. St. Paul reminds us, “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work” (2 Tim 3:16-17).
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=8441

To imply that it is okay to dismiss the words of St. Paul as if they were no longer relevant, or didn’t mean what they said, is gravely erroneous.

And to suggest that the Church has a morally “correct” and official position toward alcoholism which differs from the words of St. Paul on the subject is likewise.
 
God is merciful towards sinners of many kinds. Except for drunks, they’re all going to Hell. All of them. There’s zero Divine Mercy for drunks, and probably other addicts too. There’s something about them that just seems “off”, I think it’s almost like they’re being obtuse enough to ignore that they totally have a choice, and can stop drinking at any time without any repercussions.

So, I’m sorry for those who are drunks and alcoholics; you may have destroyed your lives with the bottle, but there’s no mercy for you. You’re getting a “straight to Hell” card from the Community Chest. No passing Go, no collecting two hundred dollars.

Or…maybe, just maybe, if we look at the Church as a whole, we see that full consent is required for something to be a mortal sin. And it’s possible that the alcohol and the drugs can warp someone’s mind into making no longer something that they fully consent to.
 
Lupe Lu, let’s try this another way. Because I don’t think that we’re disagreeing, but we are speaking past each other.

Before I explain, here’s the quote from St. Paul on women shutting up. Before anyone goes off on me, yes it was I who added “shut up and put up” That’s because many people use this that way. Which is goofy. That’s another thread.

1 Corinthians 14:34
let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law
,

On this issue, I said in one of my earlier posts that very often one triggers an addition through sinful behavior. This is the behavior about which Paul is speaking.

Having said that a person with an addictive personality can trigger a major problem with sinful behavior, there is another point in moral theology that St. Paul does not cover, but the Church does. That is that as the person loses control or freedom, culpability is diminished and can even disappear, depending on the intensity of the addiction.

Since we’re speaking about alcoholism, I’m taking for granted that we’re speaking about something a little different from going around drunk because the individual either sees nothing wrong with it or fails to exercise restraint. That would be drunkenness.

Alcoholism, on the other hand, is not mentioned in great detail in the CCC, because objectively it is not a sin, but can certainly be the product of sinful behavior. Objectively, if one is true alcoholic, one is ill. The rules of moral theology are that one’s culpability is proportionate to one’s freedom. Addictions have varying degrees. Therefore, they are going to be varying degrees of freedom or no freedom at all. That affects the degree of culpability.

We can’t just say, “Paul said . . . “ without looking at what moral theology says about culpability. Paul is naming the sin. He is not giving us a system by which we can assess the degree of culpability. That system is given to us by moral theology. As we know, moral theology says that for one to be culpable of grave sin, one must meet all three of the following conditions.
  1. The matter must be grave
  2. There has to be full knowledge
  3. There has to be freedom to choose
It’s number three that we have to say that addiction can diminish freedom to such a point that it diminishes culpability or there is none at all, depending on the degree of the addiction.

We have to remember that there are addicts who become incompetent after extended abuse. These folks continue to use alcohol, but they are not in their right state of mind to even choose to put themselves into some kind of recovery program. There are people who develop other mental illnesses from long term use and abuse of alcohol. I’ve seen alcoholics whom I wondered how much contact they have with reality.

We have to remember, that while this may have all begun with sin, it can reach a point where there is a loss of control and even a loss of one’s mental faculties. That person is still going to drink, but he is not deprived of God’s love and mercy, because he is sick.

Again, this is a principle of morality, not an isolated statement on alcoholism. The CCC gives the subject a broad stroke, precisely because it is a very complex subject and can be the topic of another book.

Look at this paragraph on the habit of masturbation and observe how the moral principle is applied without contradicting scripture. It is the moral principle that I’m defending here, not alcoholism.

**2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. “Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.”

“The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of “the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved.”**

We know this to be true. Now, watch how the Church determines culpability.

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

These are the pieces that St. Paul does not mention, because he’s speaking about acts and behaviors that are objectively disordered. However, he is not writing a manual on moral theology, nor has he any knowledge of human psychology. Today’s Church has the knowledge of human psychology and realizes that the human being is very complex. She also has systems of moral theology that help her apply the moral content of the scripture.

If we take St. Paul alone, without the principle that the Church uses in pastoral practice to assess culpability, we’re lacking information needed to make an objective assessment of a particular individual’s situation.

I don’t think that we’re contradicting each other. I think that I’m adding to what Paul said the principles of moral theology that the Church uses along with what Paul says. By applying these principles can then interpret Paul’s teaching correctly and fairly.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
Lupe Lu, let’s try this another way. Because I don’t think that we’re disagreeing, but we are speaking past each other.

Before I explain, here’s the quote from St. Paul on women shutting up. Before anyone goes off on me, yes it was I who added “shut up and put up” That’s because many people use this that way. Which is goofy. That’s another thread.

1 Corinthians 14:34
let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law
,

On this issue, I said in one of my earlier posts that very often one triggers an addition through sinful behavior. This is the behavior about which Paul is speaking.

Having said that a person with an addictive personality can trigger a major problem with sinful behavior, there is another point in moral theology that St. Paul does not cover, but the Church does. That is that as the person loses control or freedom, culpability is diminished and can even disappear, depending on the intensity of the addiction.

Since we’re speaking about alcoholism, I’m taking for granted that we’re speaking about something a little different from going around drunk because the individual either sees nothing wrong with it or fails to exercise restraint. That would be drunkenness.

Alcoholism, on the other hand, is not mentioned in great detail in the CCC, because objectively it is not a sin, but can certainly be the product of sinful behavior. Objectively, if one is true alcoholic, one is ill. The rules of moral theology are that one’s culpability is proportionate to one’s freedom. Addictions have varying degrees. Therefore, they are going to be varying degrees of freedom or no freedom at all. That affects the degree of culpability.

We can’t just say, “Paul said . . . “ without looking at what moral theology says about culpability. Paul is naming the sin. He is not giving us a system by which we can assess the degree of culpability. That system is given to us by moral theology. As we know, moral theology says that for one to be culpable of grave sin, one must meet all three of the following conditions.
  1. The matter must be grave
  2. There has to be full knowledge
  3. There has to be freedom to choose
It’s number three that we have to say that addiction can diminish freedom to such a point that it diminishes culpability or there is none at all, depending on the degree of the addiction.

We have to remember that there are addicts who become incompetent after extended abuse. These folks continue to use alcohol, but they are not in their right state of mind to even choose to put themselves into some kind of recovery program. There are people who develop other mental illnesses from long term use and abuse of alcohol. I’ve seen alcoholics whom I wondered how much contact they have with reality.

We have to remember, that while this may have all begun with sin, it can reach a point where there is a loss of control and even a loss of one’s mental faculties. That person is still going to drink, but he is not deprived of God’s love and mercy, because he is sick.

Again, this is a principle of morality, not an isolated statement on alcoholism. The CCC gives the subject a broad stroke, precisely because it is a very complex subject and can be the topic of another book.

Look at this paragraph on the habit of masturbation and observe how the moral principle is applied without contradicting scripture. It is the moral principle that I’m defending here, not alcoholism.

**2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. “Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.” **

“The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of “the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved.”

We know this to be true. Now, watch how the Church determines culpability.

**To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account **the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

These are the pieces that St. Paul does not mention, because he’s speaking about acts and behaviors that are objectively disordered. However, he is not writing a manual on moral theology, nor has he any knowledge of human psychology. Today’s Church has the knowledge of human psychology and realizes that the human being is very complex. She also has systems of moral theology that help her apply the moral content of the scripture.

If we take St. Paul alone, without the principle that the Church uses in pastoral practice to assess culpability, we’re lacking information needed to make an objective assessment of a particular individual’s situation.

I don’t think that we’re contradicting each other. I think that I’m adding to what Paul said the principles of moral theology that the Church uses along with what Paul says. By applying these principles can then interpret Paul’s teaching correctly and fairly.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
An excellent overview, Brother 🙂
 
Saint Paul never said anything about anyone shutting up and putting up.

You are the one taking his words out of context.

*"Let me take us back to those words of St Paul, for even the most cursory look at them reveal that St Paul spends far more of his energy talking about what husbands should do, rather than what wives should do.

He starts his paragraph on relationships with the words: “Be subject to one another …” (v21). He speaks of the husband being the head (v23), and that they are to love their wives (v25) … as their own bodies (v28) … he who loves his wife loves himself (v28) … he nourishes and tenderly cares for it … (29).

There are two references to wives being subject to their husbands and another where they are to be subject to one another. It is noteworthy that there are no words to say that the wives should love their husbands!" *

From the Catechism of the Catholic Chruch:

2290 The virtue of temperance disposes us to avoid every kind of excess: the abuse of food, alcohol, tobacco, or medicine. Those incur grave guilt who, by drunkenness or a love of speed, endanger their own and others’ safety on the road, at sea, or in the air. [1809]

2291 The use of drugs inflicts very grave damage on human health and life. Their use, except on strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense. Clandestine production of and trafficking in drugs are scandalous practices. They constitute direct co-operation in evil, since they encourage people to practices gravely contrary to the moral law.

That pretty much summarizes the OFFICIAL view of the Chruch on alcoholism and substance abuse in general. You imply that one must adapt a disease model because everyone has been doing that for fifty years. This is simply untrue. It removes the locus of control from the individual and implies that alcoholics have no choice in the matter, “they’re sick.”

St. Paul’s message is exactly the opposite. He states that those who persist in sin will not see the Kingdom. He classifies drunkenness as a sin, which it clearly is. The CCC agrees with that sentiment entirely. **Granted, there may be less culpability as the person degenerates into habitual use and addiction, but that does not mean that this a hopeless situation which removes ALL culpability and choice. The words of the Bible are not to me dismissed. **

**
St. Augustine in one of his letters to St. Jerome:

For I confess to your Charity that I have learned to yield this respect and honour only to the canonical books of Scripture: of these alone do I most firmly believe that the authors were completely free from error. And if in these writings I am perplexed by anything which appears to me opposed to truth, I do not hesitate to suppose that either the MS. is faulty or the translator has not caught the meaning of what was said, or I myself have failed to understand it . . . I believe, my brother, that this is your own opinion as well as mine.1 **

Of course the Catholic Church has ALWAYS taught and continues to teach complete Scriptural inerrancy.

A proper understanding of the doctrine of biblical inerrancy is vital, since a defective view of this doctrine diminishes the power of the proclaimed Word of God. St. Paul reminds us, “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work” (2 Tim 3:16-17).
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=8441

To imply that it is okay to dismiss the words of St. Paul as if they were no longer relevant, or didn’t mean what they said, is gravely erroneous.

And to suggest that the Church has a morally “correct” and official position toward alcoholism which differs from the words of St. Paul on the subject is likewise.

Funny, I prefer this one…

Remember the part where I state:

**Granted, there may be less culpability as the person degenerates into habitual use and addiction, but that does not mean that this a hopeless situation which removes ALL culpability and choice. The words of the Bible are not to me dismissed. **

No one may judge what is in a person’s heart. Only God may judge. That is in the Scriptures also. I am not pretending to determine how a merciful but just God will judge each particular individual. But, that is not really the discussion. We are speaking in generalities. And, St. **Paul is quite clear that drunkards, that is the unrepentent, unreclaimed drunkard, is NOT going to see the Kingdom of God. **

Sorry if some people don’t like that idea or that message.

It isn’t my call, I’m just the messanger.
**
I have a clear understanding of moral theology and what factors can have an impact on culpability. I also have a personal belief that God meant what he said when He spoke of sin and death and Heaven and Hell. If he revealed that drunkards are out, they’re out. I’m sure there are exceptions, but I wouldn’t want to test that, would you?**

Just an aside, your faith in the field of Psychology as a depository of TRUTH and HARD SCIENCE, kind of astounds me. The body of knowledge encompassed by the field of Psychology is hovering right around the level of Astrology and Tarot Reading, maybe lower.
 
It quite unambiguously states that drunkards will not enter the kingdom.
Saint Paul never said anything about anyone shutting up and putting up.

You are the one taking his words out of context.

*"Let me take us back to those words of St Paul, for even the most cursory look at them reveal that St Paul spends far more of his energy talking about what husbands should do, rather than what wives should do.

He starts his paragraph on relationships with the words: “Be subject to one another …” (v21). He speaks of the husband being the head (v23), and that they are to love their wives (v25) … as their own bodies (v28) … he who loves his wife loves himself (v28) … he nourishes and tenderly cares for it … (29).

There are two references to wives being subject to their husbands and another where they are to be subject to one another. It is noteworthy that there are no words to say that the wives should love their husbands!" *

From the Catechism of the Catholic Chruch:

2290 The virtue of temperance disposes us to avoid every kind of excess: the abuse of food, alcohol, tobacco, or medicine. Those incur grave guilt who, by drunkenness or a love of speed, endanger their own and others’ safety on the road, at sea, or in the air. [1809]

2291 The use of drugs inflicts very grave damage on human health and life. Their use, except on strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense. Clandestine production of and trafficking in drugs are scandalous practices. They constitute direct co-operation in evil, since they encourage people to practices gravely contrary to the moral law.

That pretty much summarizes the OFFICIAL view of the Chruch on alcoholism and substance abuse in general. You imply that one must adapt a disease model because everyone has been doing that for fifty years. This is simply untrue. It removes the locus of control from the individual and implies that alcoholics have no choice in the matter, “they’re sick.”

St. Paul’s message is exactly the opposite. He states that those who persist in sin will not see the Kingdom. He classifies drunkenness as a sin, which it clearly is. The CCC agrees with that sentiment entirely. **Granted, there may be less culpability as the person degenerates into habitual use and addiction, but that does not mean that this a hopeless situation which removes ALL culpability and choice. The words of the Bible are not to me dismissed. **

**
St. Augustine in one of his letters to St. Jerome:

For I confess to your Charity that I have learned to yield this respect and honour only to the canonical books of Scripture: of these alone do I most firmly believe that the authors were completely free from error. And if in these writings I am perplexed by anything which appears to me opposed to truth, I do not hesitate to suppose that either the MS. is faulty or the translator has not caught the meaning of what was said, or I myself have failed to understand it . . . I believe, my brother, that this is your own opinion as well as mine.1 **

Of course the Catholic Church has ALWAYS taught and continues to teach complete Scriptural inerrancy.

A proper understanding of the doctrine of biblical inerrancy is vital, since a defective view of this doctrine diminishes the power of the proclaimed Word of God. St. Paul reminds us, “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work” (2 Tim 3:16-17).
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=8441

To imply that it is okay to dismiss the words of St. Paul as if they were no longer relevant, or didn’t mean what they said, is gravely erroneous.

And to suggest that the Church has a morally “correct” and official position toward alcoholism which differs from the words of St. Paul on the subject is likewise.
Funny, I prefer this one…

Remember the part where I state:

**Granted, there may be less culpability as the person degenerates into habitual use and addiction, but that does not mean that this a hopeless situation which removes ALL culpability and choice. The words of the Bible are not to me dismissed. **

No one may judge what is in a person’s heart. Only God may judge. That is in the Scriptures also. I am not pretending to determine how a merciful AND just God will judge each particular individual. But, that is not really the discussion. We, and St. Paul are speaking in **generalities. St.Paul is quite clear that drunkards, that is the unrepentent, unreclaimed drunkard, is NOT going to see the Kingdom of God. **

Sorry if some people don’t like that idea or that message.

It isn’t my call, I’m just the messenger.
**
I have a clear understanding of moral theology and what factors can have an impact on culpability. I also have a personal belief, as a Roman Catholic Christian that God meant what he said when He spoke of sin and death and Heaven and Hell. If He revealed that drunkards are out, they’re out. I’m sure there are exceptions, but I wouldn’t want to test that, would you?**

Just an aside, the field of Psychology, as far as being a depository of TRUTH and HARD SCIENCE, is hovering right around the level of Astrology and Tarot Reading, maybe lower.
 
Just an aside, the field of Psychology, as far as being a depository of TRUTH and HARD SCIENCE, is hovering right around the level of Astrology and Tarot Reading, maybe lower.
Come on, that’s not nice.

One of the Church’s most beloved and trusted experts on Christian Spirituality is Fr. Benedict Groeschel who is a PhD in psychology, not theology. A few months ago, can’t recall what the subject was, he mentioned on his show that his had been one of the testimonies used in the process to beatify Bl. Mother Teresa. The Church respects his knows of psychology so much that he serves on many posts, ran a house for priests that was a blend of therapy and retreat, and he has been teaching Spiritual Psychology in seminaries for decades. He’s not the only psychologist employed by the Church. However, I think he’s the most famous. There are many very good ones in the service of the Church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
Come on, that’s not nice.

One of the Church’s most beloved and trusted experts on Christian Spirituality is Fr. Benedict Groeschel who is a PhD in psychology, not theology. A few months ago, can’t recall what the subject was, he mentioned on his show that his had been one of the testimonies used in the process to beatify Bl. Mother Teresa. The Church respects his knows of psychology so much that he serves on many posts, ran a house for priests that was a blend of therapy and retreat, and he has been teaching Spiritual Psychology in seminaries for decades. He’s not the only psychologist employed by the Church. However, I think he’s the most famous. There are many very good ones in the service of the Church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
Don’t make me go there.
 
Come on, that’s not nice.

One of the Church’s most beloved and trusted experts on Christian Spirituality is Fr. Benedict Groeschel who is a PhD in psychology, not theology. A few months ago, can’t recall what the subject was, he mentioned on his show that his had been one of the testimonies used in the process to beatify Bl. Mother Teresa. The Church respects his knows of psychology so much that he serves on many posts, ran a house for priests that was a blend of therapy and retreat, and he has been teaching Spiritual Psychology in seminaries for decades. He’s not the only psychologist employed by the Church. However, I think he’s the most famous. There are many very good ones in the service of the Church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
Given Fr’s sound reputation, I can’t help but wonder why he has been quoted as defending Reparative Therapy. This lowered my opinion of him, which was previously very high.

How does one square this? His statements on Reparative Therapy are grossly improper for a licensed therapist, as NO licensed therapist can ethically engage in reparative therapy. Any licensed therapist knowing that another licensed therapist is doing so is ethically bound to report that clinician to their licencing body.
 
Here again, we have to be honest. Traddom loves the word disorder, because many people can use it to justify their homophobic and often abusive behavior toward homosexual people. Some of these folks assume an attitude that says, “I thank God that I’m not made like the rest of men.” I have yet to hear one of these folks on forums or blogs admit to the fact that there are many disordered behaviors among straight people. On the contrary. The speak of homosexuals as aberrant and heterosexuals are never mentioned or considered capable aberrant behaviors.
I hope you will take this a constructive criticism: all of the thoughtful points in the rest of your post could have been made without constructing the straw man quoted above.
 
I hope you will take this a constructive criticism: all of the thoughtful points in the rest of your post could have been made without constructing the straw man quoted above.
I wish it were a straw man. When you’ve been in ministry as long as I have, you hear all kinds of things, from very funny to the sublime. In between, there is always a group that has a very condescending attitude toward homosexuals, addicts and Muslims. Those are generally the three groups that are looked at as if they were more untouchable.

Remember, this is not a majority by any means. Thank God for that. But fact is that these people are often too ready to condemn and to tell everyone what to believe on these issues. When you stop and think about it, you can’t help but wonder. Why is anyone throwing anyone else under the bus? That’s when you begin to discover that there are other motives, ranging from fear to spiritual pride. The fear is often caused by a poor understanding. The spiritual pride is self-explanatory.

There is an old story among the Carmelites that I like to use when discussing people who are in disordered situations. St. Teresa of Avila used to pray for Judas Iscariot. When asked why, she responded, “We have all betrayed him and yet we hope for his mercy.” She took a very balanced view of people and situations. There is human weakness and there is Divine Mercy.

Her teachings point to the fact that some souls struggle with their passions all their lives. In those cases, God’s mercy triumphs, because struggle and pain are not lost on God. She says that it is human beings who take notice of sin, but do not want to see the pain in the sinner. She tells her friars and her nuns to be on the lookout that they never fall into the temptation to see only the negative in people. Instead, one must strive for balance in one’s assessment of others and their situations.

In this area, one must sort out the drunkard for the person who is ill. That would be a sign of balance. One does not deny the evil, while acknowledging that there are times when the person loses control. What may have begun as a volitional evil can become an involuntary struggle for survival.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
I wish it were a straw man. When you’ve been in ministry as long as I have, you hear all kinds of things, from very funny to the sublime. In between, there is always a group that has a very condescending attitude toward homosexuals, addicts and Muslims.
Did you just lump sodomy, dug addiction and Islam into the same category? And yonder “group,” who are they and what would you describe them as? Unless I am mistaken, Christians have never been favourable to the practise of sodomy, using drugs or supporting Islam.
But fact is that these people are often too ready to condemn and to tell everyone what to believe on these issues. When you stop and think about it, you can’t help but wonder. Why is anyone throwing anyone else under the bus? That’s when you begin to discover that there are other motives, ranging from fear to spiritual pride. The fear is often caused by a poor understanding. The spiritual pride is self-explanatory.
No, please: tell me what you mean by fear from a poor understanding and spiritual pride, which certainly isn’t self-explanatory.

Sodomy = evil practise.
Drug use = evil practise.
Denying Christ = evil practise.

Chastity = holiness.
Purity = holiness.
Worshipping Christ the King = holiness.

Is that “condescending”?

Am I saing these things from “fear” as a result of some “poor understanding”? Am I saying these things from “spiritual pride”? Or am I saying these things because that is what the Roman Catholic Church teaches?
 
Did you just lump sodomy, dug addiction and Islam into the same category? And yonder “group,” who are they and what would you describe them as? Unless I am mistaken, Christians have never been favourable to the practise of sodomy, using drugs or supporting Islam.

No, please: tell me what you mean by fear from a poor understanding and spiritual pride, which certainly isn’t self-explanatory.

Sodomy = evil practise.
Drug use = evil practise.
Denying Christ = evil practise.

Chastity = holiness.
Purity = holiness.
Worshipping Christ the King = holiness.

Is that “condescending”?

Am I saing these things from “fear” as a result of some “poor understanding”? Am I saying these things from “spiritual pride”? Or am I saying these things because that is what the Roman Catholic Church teaches?
Condescension is not about what is said, but about how it’s said.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
Did you just lump sodomy, dug addiction and Islam into the same category? And yonder “group,” who are they and what would you describe them as? Unless I am mistaken, Christians have never been favourable to the practise of sodomy, using drugs or supporting Islam.

No, please: tell me what you mean by fear from a poor understanding and spiritual pride, which certainly isn’t self-explanatory.

Sodomy = evil practise.
Drug use = evil practise.
Denying Christ = evil practise.

Chastity = holiness.
Purity = holiness.
Worshipping Christ the King = holiness.

Is that “condescending”?

Am I saing these things from “fear” as a result of some “poor understanding”? Am I saying these things from “spiritual pride”? Or am I saying these things because that is what the Roman Catholic Church teaches?
But there are also homosexuals who practice celibacy. There are drug users who desire to be free from their “drug-enduced captivity.” There are Muslims who work for humanitarian efforts. Again, the Church condemns the sins, not the sinner.

If they remain outcasts and marginalized, even if they have done the worst evil in the world, they deserve even the slightest bit of our compassion. If not then we are no worse than those who deny Christ.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top