The Church and Economic Theory

[Cruxis117]

*"2425 The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with **“communism” or “socialism.” **She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of **“capitalism,” *individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor.206 Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for "there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market.“207 Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended”

With this paragraph from the Catechism of the Catholic Church in mind, what economic or politcal theory do you suggest that should be followed or adhered to by Catholics?

 

[stinkcat_14]

The church does not have an economic theory that it accepts or rejects. Economic theories are fallible, man-made tools which may or may not be valid. The church calls us to live in our economies with an eye towards virtue and justice.

 

[Cruxis117]

The church does not have an economic theory that it accepts or rejects. Economic theories are fallible, man-made tools which may or may not be valid. The church calls us to live in our economies with an eye towards virtue and justice.

This I am aware of, but this does not address the question. I was asking what would you suggest that a Catholic should adhere to politically or economically. Let’s say hypothetically…

 

[portarica]

This I am aware of, but this does not address the question. I was asking what would you suggest that a Catholic should adhere to politically or economically. Let’s say hypothetically…

A good start would be to do business in an honest and truthful manner .

Obviously try to profit by subterfuge as opposed to providing value should be discouraged.

Peace

 

[Rascalking]

Think of the countries heading toward the socialism. Then, think of the ones that have capitalism (or close to it) and ask yourself-isn’t it great to live in a place where the poor people are fat?

Think about that-in America, a key problem is obesity. Most “poor” people have televisions, cars, and a roof over there head. Yes, there are homeless people, and there are people who struggle. However, the perfect is the enemy of the good. Not many people realize that anymore…

 

[Cruxis117]

Think of the countries heading toward the socialism. Then, think of the ones that have capitalism (or close to it) and ask yourself-isn’t it great to live in a place where the poor people are fat?

Think about that-in America, a key problem is obesity. Most “poor” people have televisions, cars, and a roof over there head. Yes, there are homeless people, and there are people who struggle. However, the perfect is the enemy of the good. Not many people realize that anymore…

Hmm…I’m not sure that I agree with that. Considering that the GDP of America is nearly the same as the National Debt…it kind of makes me wonder, is the U.S. better off with Capitalism, or maybe economics should move more to the left.

 

[Rascalking]

Hmm…I’m not sure that I agree with that. Considering that the GDP of America is nearly the same as the National Debt…it kind of makes me wonder, is the U.S. better off with Capitalism, or maybe economics should move more to the left.

1. I invite you to read Hayek and Friedman-two wonderful economic writers who can explain things much better than I can.
2. A socialism based economy takes away from personal initative. How much would get done ? Is Cuba falling apart? What about Greece? Take a look at some of their countries.
3. If you really don’t like the economic system of the country you are in, move.

 

[PatrickSebast]

1. If you really don’t like the economic system of the country you are in, move.

Or try to change it. People are allowed to do that in democratic societies after all.

 

[Cruxis117]

1. I invite you to read Hayek and Friedman-two wonderful economic writers who can explain things much better than I can.
2. A socialism based economy takes away from personal initative. How much would get done ? Is Cuba falling apart? What about Greece? Take a look at some of their countries.
3. If you really don’t like the economic system of the country you are in, move.

Right, now, remember that when you look at the U.S., because they haven’t exactly done any better.

 

[Rascalking]

Right, now, remember that when you look at the U.S., because they haven’t exactly done any better.

What? Are you claiming that the US economy isn’t in better shape than Greece or Cuba? Thats…um…odd.

 

[GratefulFred]

America, I think, is suppose to be the Land of Opportunity.

We have a right to National Defense, to a reliable police force and fire department to protect us and our property.

We have a right to a free education, K-12, and affordable education through a Bachelor’s Degree or other specialized training so we can perform our work with a reasonable income for our dilligent labor.

We have a RESPONSIBILITY to invest in ourselves and to gain that education. We cannot blow it through apathy or drugs. As kids, we may not know this, but that is what parents are for. That’s what community organizers are for. Education is from the Latin e ducre, to lead out. To develop one’s God given talents in meaningful ways. The ability to earn one’s way in life provides great internal satisfaction. Geting educated does take personal effort over many years. Education is THE KEY TO PERSONAL ECONOMIC SUCCESS and a successful ecomonic system. And getting educated in our relationship with God is THE KEY to eternal salvation.

QUID PRO QUO - this for that. While there will always be those who truly need our charity, both from our personal resources and from our taxes, it is so much better to provide needed services IN RETURN for some service from the receiver. PRIDE and DIGNITY in doing something for our daily bread does matter. A hand up is so much better than a hand out for some 90% of those in economic need. The more you do, the more you get, The less you do, the less you get.

Private businesses, both large and small provide the goods and services we need. They also provide jobs. But not every job can be rewarded with $100,000 a year income. So not everyone can expect to live in $300,000 homes and drive a Lexus.

Both business and government can become abusers of their workers and citizens. There must be a system of brakes to control unfair advantage, while at the same time allowing freedom to react to changing economic needs and to succeed.

There are several encyclicals on Moral Economic Responsiblities. The first and perhaps the best kown is Rerum Novarum, by Pope Leo XIII.

 

[Cruxis117]

What? Are you claiming that the US economy isn’t in better shape than Greece or Cuba? Thats…um…odd.

I actually am. Why?

National GDP of America
google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=ny_gdp_mktp_cd&idim=country:USA&dl=en&hl=en&q=gdp+of+the+united+states

National Debt of America
brillig.com/debt_clock/

They are nearly on par with one another.

This is Cuba

cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/cu.html

And according to this, Greece is a Capitalist Country. Let’s see what this site says:

cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gr.html

 

[jflare29]

We have a right to a free education, K-12, and affordable education through a Bachelor’s Degree or other specialized training so we can perform our work with a reasonable income for our dilligent labor.

We have a RESPONSIBILITY to invest in ourselves … Education is THE KEY TO PERSONAL ECONOMIC SUCCESS and a successful ecomonic system. And getting educated in our relationship with God is THE KEY to eternal salvation.
.

That first part especially isn’t entirely correct, I think. Even public education requires that someone erect a building, buy textbooks, and pay teachers. Money changes hands. Those funds typically derive from property taxes, income taxes, and various other levies and fundraising mechanisms.

Then too, the current system doesn’t precisely encourage personal responsibility from all takers. How many billions of dollars have been wasted by students who’ve accepted scholarships, but flunked out from the program by means of failure to study? Or, even when they’ve “succeeded”, haven’t fulfilled their potential because they didn’t apply themselves as vigorously as possible?

I don’t oppose grant, scholarship, or loan programs per se, but I think society as a whole and the particular organizations who support these funding programs would benefit tremendously from requiring a good deal of written vocational discernment.

When people have developed their own plans for achieving success, they have FAR greater chance of achieving that same success.

 

[mcteague]

What? Are you claiming that the US economy isn’t in better shape than Greece or Cuba? Thats…um…odd.

Cuba is a different story. But you should understand that the reason the US is not facing the kind of economic callapse that Greece and Ireland are is because of the size of our economy. Institutions that rate credit worthiness consider that the US still has the ability to fix it’s economic problems. These smaller countries and smaller economies are not considered to have much chance. That is our amount of bad debt will hurt us, but not destroy us. It has very little to do with differences in the economic policies of the various countries.

 

[Warrenton]

Economic theory is fine to explain how economics work, but a “Theory” that is raised to the level of an ideology is a mistake, because economics is subservient to the primary need of the people to live in peace and holiness. Organizing a country around an ecomomic “Theory” is putting the cart before the horse.

The situation is that any change we make (in the US) is going to cause massive disruption, and be fought tooth and nail. From the Catholic perspective, any changes should be incremental, out of charity. We must remember that the changes needed to preserve society will not be viewed favorably my most people: they will see it as an intrusion upon their freedoms. For example, most people oppose prohibiting divorce, even though it is tremendously expensive to maintain this freedom.

One change that should be made is to de-couple funding of schools from real estate taxes. Then, all persons with children should get a dollar for dollar deduction on the school tax if they elect to send their children to parochial school or teach them at home. This at least will enable Catholics to regain control of the education of our children.*

 

[Captain_America]

I’m jaded. I have read many economics authors. Right and left.

It never fails to amaze me that

(a) economists can easily come up on both sides of an economics question. . . (so one wonders how much science is in this discipline),

(b) yet so many people believe economists can provide objective answers, (perhaps in a micro sense),

(c) there are a lot of people so disgusted with politics that libertarianism seems a legitimate route. Or even going further, and promoting anarchism.

(d) finally, that there hasn’t been much update to Adam Smith in certain quarters. . . and that Adam Smith’s quaint approach is taken as a God-like declaration of the unchangeable State of Nature.

 

[gnjsdad]

1. I invite you to read Hayek and Friedman-two wonderful economic writers who can explain things much better than I can.

What did the disciples of Milton Friedman on Wall Street do when the banking system teetered on the edge of collapse in 2008? Why, they woke up and shouted “We’re all Kenyesians now!” as they begged the gov’t to step in, which the government HAD to do to avert a depression.

Rascalking:

If you really don’t like the economic system of the country you are in, move.

Or, better than move, you can implement a program of economics as if God matters. This means…

An end to the system of state sponsored usury (what we call capitalism) we live under now

An end to outsourcing

The setting of just prices

A just family wage

An economics guided by the Catholic principles of the common good, the universal destination of goods, subsidiarity, and solidarity.

Man is a rational actor. Economics ought to be driven by rational consideratons and moral choices, not market forces.

The economy exists for man, not man for the economy.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

What did the disciples of Milton Friedman on Wall Street do when the banking system teetered on the edge of collapse in 2008? Why, they woke up and shouted “We’re all Kenyesians now!” as they begged the gov’t to step in, which the government HAD to do to avert a depression.

Or, better than move, you can implement a program of economics as if God matters. This means…

An end to the system of state sponsored usury (what we call capitalism) we live under now

An end to outsourcing

The setting of just prices

A just family wage

An economics guided by the Catholic principles of the common good, the universal destination of goods, subsidiarity, and solidarity.

Man is a rational actor. Economics ought to be driven by rational consideratons and moral choices, not market forces.

The economy exists for man, not man for the economy.

YES!

 

[Abu]

Cruxis117
what economic or politcal theory do you suggest that should be followed or adhered to by Catholics?

The Catholic Church realises that “If I were to pronounce on any single matter of a prevailing economic problem, I should be interfering with the freedom of men to work out their own affairs. Certain cases must be solved in the domain of facts, case by case as they occur…[M]en must realise in deeds those things, the principles of which have been placed beyond dispute…[T]hese things one must leave to the solution of time and experience.” [Pope Leo XIII. Quoted in *The Church And The Market, Dr Thomas E. Woods, Lexington Books, 2005, p 4].

Pius XI in Quadragesimo Anno, 1931:
Certainly the Church was not given the commission to guide men to an only fleeting and perishable happiness but to that which is eternal. Indeed “the Church holds that it is unlawful for her to mix without cause in these temporal concerns"[28]; however, she can in no wise renounce the duty God entrusted to her to interpose her authority, not of course in matters of technique for which she is neither suitably equipped nor endowed by office, but in all things that are connected with the moral law.

Pius XI acknowledged that there are limits to what the moral theologian may say within the economic sphere, since each “employs each its own principles in its own sphere.” (#42).

The free economy that recognises the “fundamental role” of private property and the freedom of mankind to economic creativity, is “the path to true civil and economic progress” within “the fundamental and positive role of business, the market”… “and the resulting responsibility for the means of production.” [John Paul II, *Centesimus Annus #42].

The Church does NOT teach what economic theories are to be used.

In Centesimus Annus, 1991, John Paul II affirmed:
“43. The Church has no models to present; models that are real and truly effective can only arise within the framework of different historical situations, through the efforts of all those who responsibly confront concrete problems in all their social, economic, political and cultural aspects, as these interact with one another.”

 

[jflare29]

Or, better than move, you can implement a program of economics as if God matters. This means…
An end to the system of state sponsored usury (what we call capitalism) we live under now
An end to outsourcing
The setting of just prices
A just family wage
An economics guided by the Catholic principles of the common good, the universal destination of goods, subsidiarity, and solidarity.
Man is a rational actor. Economics ought to be driven by rational consideratons and moral choices, not market forces.
The economy exists for man, not man for the economy.

You are aware that each of these points requires adjudication? Someone must decide what a just price IS, what a family wage IS, and so on? These decisions typically come from bases in economic theory and moral/spiritual philosophical thought.
We have a Congress, a President, and a Judiciary aimed precisely at deciding these questions.

I’ve never understood why anyone would expect Catholic principles to dominate political, social, or economic life, if those who’re in the positions to make decisions…aren’t Catholic.
If we wish to see economic policy based on ideals the Catholic Church teaches, it might be wise to encourage insistently Catholic persons to run for office…