The Church and the Word of God

[glencor63]

“If you reject those, and go elsewhere, then it’s on your head”.

And this is why the Catholic Church must cease teaching that you cannot leave the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church cannot know the relationship that person has with God. God alone will judge why they left. It borders on abusive to teach that you cannot leave a religion, any religion. Do you know how saying you cannot leave sounds to a non-Catholic? Hint: Islam does not recognize ex-Muslims. It’s a form of religious compulsion. It’s a form of bondage of free will.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

The Catholic Church is not going to cease its teaching just because you think it should.

Maybe you should think more about why this bothers you so much and why you have this unhealthy enthusiasm for Chris the fallen-away Catholic (who is compounding his sin by leading you and others like you into sin).

Leaving the thread now as I am not going to be party to someone railing against the Church in this sinful and to me, rather silly way instead of opening their mind and heart. God bless.

 

[glencor63]

The Catholic Church use to teach that suicide was an unforgivable sin primarily because you could not receive Last Rites. You could not be buried in consecrated ground. It now teaches that we trust in the mercy of God. This is good because it recognizes that God is in control.

 

[Fauken]

It’s Jesus that grants salvation, not the Church.

Yes, and He does so through His Church. Outside it there is no salvation. That is Catholic teaching.

I truly believe that some souls would not thrive in some churches. Their vocation could not be lived out.

Jesus doesn’t desire people to live believing lies. There is no better place to thrive because of Him and His Sacraments.

Reverend Billy Graham could not have fulfilled his mission as a Roman Catholic. He had to be Protestant, whereas Mother Teresa had to be Roman Catholic.

How do you know that? He “had” to never receive the Eucharist? Or the graces given at confirmation?

That’s not being merciful.

God is bigger than any church.

But God made only one.

The Catholic Church use to teach that suicide was an unforgivable sin

It still is a mortal sin. The reason why it allows suicide victims to receive a Catholic funeral is because we now know that the victims mental health may reduce their culpability. So they’re not considered manifest public sinners, which still prevents people from receiving Catholic burials today.

 

[glencor63]

I am not railing against the Catholic Church. I am discussing a teaching. I am allowed to disagree without hating the Catholic Church. I’m not simply a member of the laity, but a daughter of the most high God with a valid opinion.

 

[glencor63]

I suggest you read about his ministry. How did he carry out his ministry? What was the purpose of his ministry? Consider a pre-Vatican II Catholic Church when he began and the position of the laity. Do you really think the Reverend Billy Graham, a married man would have been allowed to travel all over the world and hold big tent revivals?

 

[Fauken]

Do you really think the Reverend Billy Graham, a married man would have been allowed to travel all over the world and hold big tent revivals?

I don’t presume to know what he would do as a Catholic or what it might look like. What I do know is that there is no reason good enough or tent revival big enough to say it’s okay for someone not to become Catholic. The Eucharist alone is reason enough.

Whatever he was, he could have been more through the Church.

 

[glencor63]

Fide, thank you for opening this thread. I’m leaving now. There’s too much resistance to change. By the way, I found a bible study. No, it’s not Catholic, but I feel peace. My desire to study the word of God is being satisfied. God bless!

 

[Fauken]

There’s too much resistance to change.

Because your “change” is not Catholic. Your “change” would have been content to leave me Protestant and never receive the Sacraments.

 

[glencor63]

And yet, Jesus called him knowing he wasn’t Roman Catholic. Please ponder.

 

[Fauken]

And yet, Jesus called him knowing he wasn’t Roman Catholic. Please ponder.

You assume He never called Him at all to His Church. If He can call me to it, there’s no reason why He could have never called Billy Graham.

 

[glencor63]

I am not saying the sacraments aren’t important, only that God is not bound by the sacraments, Church, hierarchy, or anything. He saved a thief that received no sacraments. God bless. Peace be with you.

 

[fide]

“If you reject those, and go elsewhere, then it’s on your head”.

And this is why the Catholic Church must cease teaching that you cannot leave the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church cannot know the relationship that person has with God. God alone will judge why they left.

As I understand the teachings of the Church, I believe that the Church agrees with you. The Church teaches something close to “teaching that you cannot leave the Catholic Church” - but as a dear priest used to say, “close is not good enough, except maybe in [the game of] Horseshoes!”

The Church does teach this:

Catechism 819 - “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth”<LG 8 # 2> are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.”<UR 3 # 2; cf. LG 15> Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,<Cf. UR 3> and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”<Cf. LG 8>

And thus, she also teaches this:

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
Catechism 846 - How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?<Cf. Cyprian, Ep. 73.21: PL 3, 1169; De unit.: PL 4, 509-536> Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.<LG 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5>

The important of conscience in involved here - and we have an obligation to rightly form our conscience - to rightly educate our conscience - and to work heroically to clarify an uncertain or doubt-confused conscience - and to follow a certain conscience.

 

[Fauken]

I am not saying the sacraments aren’t important, only that God is not bound by the sacraments, Church, hierarchy, or anything. He saved a thief that received no sacraments. God bless. Peace be with you.

Because the thief had no chance to receive them, the Church hadn’t come into being yet because Christ needed to die, the Apostles didn’t receive the authority to forgive sins, etc.

Yes, God can work outside the Sacraments. That does not excuse us to ignore them or say it’s okay to never receive them. When someone is dying of thirst, you don’t tell them to try to wait and drink the rain when the next storm comes.

I suggest you review Catholic teaching.

 

[glencor63]

I never said it’s okay not to receive the sacraments. What I said is Jesus is not compelled to operate within the sacramental system. He is God! He created the sacraments! Stop limiting God! God wanted one unified church. It’s not unified, yet he allows the division to exist. It would behoove all of us to ponder the question of WHY? Why does God bless Catholics, Protestants and Eastern Orthodox Christians, despite our division? We often condemn each other and question each other’s salvation.

 

[Fauken]

I never said it’s okay not to receive the sacraments. What I said is Jesus is not compelled to operate within the sacramental system. He is God! He created the sacraments! Stop limiting God!

I’m limiting God? I’m going by what He said. God works outside the Sacraments, but Billy Graham couldn’t have done or been who He was without being married and outside the Church? Does that not sound hypothetical to you? That God could not then make Billy Graham’s work go through, and perhaps be even better, through the Church?

God works outside the Sacraments for those for whom it’s impossible to receive them. Not simply because they choose not to receive them.

It’s not unified, yet he allows the division to exist. It behooves all of us to ponder the question of WHY? Why does God bless Catholics, Protestants and Eastern Orthodox Christians, despite our division?

Because of free will and sin. Because He wants us to choose to say yes to Him.

John 17:22

“17:22 And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them: that, they may be one, as we also are one.”

We often condemn each other and question each other’s salvation.

I condemn their beliefs that are in conflict with the Church’s and what you’re proposing. I haven’t condemned a single person, that’s not my job. But I cannot act like all they do is good when it’s not. It is not good to stay apart from His Church. And it is nothing to praise.

 

[glencor63]

“God works outside the Sacraments, but Billy Graham couldn’t have done or been who He was without being married and outside the Church? Does that not sound hypothetical to you? That God could not then make Billy Graham’s work go through, and perhaps be even better, through the Church”?

In my opinion, the structure of the Catholic Church and the position of the laity is such that if Billy Graham had been Roman Catholic his ministry would have failed. I stand by my opinion. Have a great day!

 

[Fauken]

In my opinion, the structure of the Catholic Church and the position of the laity is such that if Billy Graham had been Roman Catholic his ministry would have failed. I stand by my opinion.

St. Joan of Arc wore armor (granted for her own protection) and helped lead French troops to battle in a time where women wearing pants was scandalous, much less asking the French king to put her out on the battlefield. The English used it as an excuse to later kill her, but not before she made the impact that she did in the Hundred Years War. Why could she do all of this? Because the King and Bishops of France could see she was doing God’s work. And when God is on our side, none can oppose us. If God can part the Red Sea, He could have found room for Billy Graham’s ministry in the Church.

The sad part is that we’ll never find out what more he could have done.

Have a great day!

You too!

 

[Justin_Mary]

The Catholic Church believes and teaches that the Sacred Liturgy is the “source and summit of the Christian life”! We have just noted that of the 1/3 of Catholics who were raised under this Church belief and left the Church for Protestantism, 71% left because their spiritual needs were not being met! The overwhelming majority of those spiritually hungry former Catholics (78%) found their home in evangelical Protestantism, where Scripture reigns and “sola scriptura” is the dominant doctrine. We Catholics ought – ought – to learn something from this.

1/3 left. Doesn’t this also mean 2/3 find their spiritual needs are met by the liturgy?

One observation that I think we need to take seriously is the hunger for the Word of God among Catholics. This hunger is a beautiful gift from God – it is a hunger that the Church is obliged as Mother to respond to, in her children. Catholics ought not have to leave the Church, to find the beauty and power and presence of Christ in His holy Word.

I remember a story I was told. Pontius Pilate offered to release a prisoner on the Passover. The people chose Barabbas, condemning the Messiah they were looking for to death.

They were looking for the Messiah, they chose a criminal.

We’re all looking for Jesus. As a Catholic I believe I found Him in the Church. Others don’t see it.

 

[glencor63]

God could find room for Billy Graham in the Catholic Church, but would the “Church” have been open, receptive to the promoting of the Holy Spirit in allowing Billy Graham to be used by God? That’s the question.