The Church and the Word of God

[Justin_Mary]

When a human person hears God - the Word - in His words , Holy Scripture - he has found a treasure that will remain with him, until that Last Day comes to consummation.

As others have said, the entire Mass is scripture. From the hyms to the greetings, the Word, the Psalms, the Gospel, the Homily, the offering, the Eucharist, the prayers, the dismissal… you are given the Word then sent into the world.

My question is why are they finding what they are looking for in other traditions? Is it because they don’t preach suffering? Is it because they preach power, riches, & glory? Is it because they don’t preach “be merciful & you will receive Mercy” “forgive & you will be Forgiven” “love & you shall be Loved”

They’re preaching another Jesus out there. That’s the Jesus they accept. That’s the Jesus they believe & call on.

That’s not our Jesus. That’s not His Word.

 

[Fauken]

God could find room for Billy Graham in the Catholic Church, but would the “Church” have been open, receptive to the promoting of the Holy Spirit in allowing Billy Graham to be used by God? That’s the question.

We’ll never know for certain. Would he have faced challenges? Most likely. Ven. Fulton Sheen faced opposition and he was a bishop. The Church is not its hierarchy, which is what I assume you’re referring to as “Church”. I think that if God wanted his ministry to continue, a way would have been found. Perhaps He wouldn’t and it would end, but something greater would rise. St. Louis de Montfort once enlisted the help of many people to build a monument to Our Lady. But his opposition convinced the local bishop to have it torn down (I can’t remember exactly what they told the bishop, my memory wants to say it was both silly and a lie). Did St. Louis de Montfort rail against the Church? Was he not meant to be Catholic? No. He praised God and tore it down. Now he’s St. Louis de Montfort, and his opposition and that bishop are lost to time.

 

[Justin_Mary]

The Church is not a department store that listens to a lot of customer feedback and then changes its product line.

That’s not true, exactly. The parish, the laity runs the Church, the magisterium provides for the needs of it’s flock.

You’re right inasmuch as the Church won’t change its liturgy to appease its “audience.”

But if we need more Bible study most parishes will provide it. If not your parish a parish nearby will. I attend a monthly gathering where some members travel an hour to attend & there’s regularly people there from at least four different parishes.

But not on Sunday. Sunday is for the Mass & it seems a lot of people want to be spoonfed feel good messages on Sunday.

 

[Justin_Mary]

It’s Jesus that grants salvation, not the Church. I truly believe that some souls would not thrive in some churches. Their vocation could not be lived out. Reverend Billy Graham could not have fulfilled his mission as a Roman Catholic. He had to be Protestant, whereas Mother Teresa had to be Roman Catholic. Corrie ten Boom had to be Dutch Reformed. God is bigger than any church

Completely disagree. Billy Graham would have made a wonderful Catholic.

And I love Mother Teresa. She is one of a few people I’ve “known” where I can say when I see her, I see Christ.

JPII is another.

 

[glencor63]

The Catholic Church, until recently did not encourage the laity to evangelize and take an active role in the Church. Vatican II changed the role of the laity. The Reverend Billy Graham had a vocation to marriage AND ministry. The Latin Rite Catholic Church has not allowed, with a very few exceptions married men to become priests for 1000 years. It even sends its seminarians away to live and study. Until recently, thousands of boys were sent to minor seminary boarding schools. Billy would not have met Ruth, an integral part of his ministry. He would have been forced to choose between marriage or the priesthood. The hierarchy would have expected an active part of his ministry, if not outright control of every aspect. He would have had to involve the bureaucracy of the Catholic Church and it would have failed before it started.

 

[Justin_Mary]

Why does God bless Catholics, Protestants and Eastern Orthodox Christians, despite our division? We often condemn each other and question each other’s salvation.

I hear you & agree with you. At the same time I agree with Church teaching. Billy Graham most likely is in Heaven. I don’t know. But I do believe his purgation was/will be much more painful than someone purified in this life, like Mother Teresa.

But the Church teaches if you know, not just acknowledge, but know at the very core of your being that Christ is present in the Eucharist & by extension His Church & you refuse to enter or remain, you won’t get to heaven.

I don’t think Billy Graham falls into that category.

 

[Fauken]

The Catholic Church, until recently did not encourage the laity to evangelize and take an active role in the Church. Vatican II changed the role of the laity. The Reverend Billy Graham had a vocation to marriage AND ministry. The Latin Rite Catholic Church has not allowed, with a very few exceptions married men to become priests for 1000 years. It even sends its seminarians away to live and study. Until recently, thousands of boys were sent to minor seminary boarding schools. Billy would not have met Ruth, an integral part of his ministry. He would have been forced to choose marriage or the priesthood. The hierarchy would have expected an active part of his ministry, if not outright control of every aspect. He would have had to involve the bureaucracy of the Catholic Church and it would have failed before it started.

I’m just curious. One, you say the Latin-rite. Surely you know there are multiple rites in Catholicism that are not Latin and do not require clerics to be celibate. Are you assuming that Billy Graham would only be a Latin rite Catholic?

Second, is it okay for the SSPX to be what it currently is?

 

[Justin_Mary]

The Catholic Church, until recently did not encourage the laity to evangelize and take an active role in the Church. Vatican II changed the role of the laity. The Reverend Billy Graham had a vocation to marriage AND ministry. The Latin Rite Catholic Church has not allowed, with a very few exceptions married men to become priests for 1000 years.

That’s not true. Mother Teresa was a religious, but she wasn’t ordained. She evangelized & brought more people to Christ. Billy Graham probably inspired more people to read their bibles, maybe. But Mother Teresa brought more people to the Church, which is Christ.

& while not encouraged, there’s nothing stopping a Billy Graham from preaching Christ. Big tent revival & all. He just needed, imo, to point them to the Church.

I’m not thinking Billy Graham should have been a priest. More like a Scott Hahn. He could have been a Deacon if he felt a call to be ordained.

& while we’re speaking of Billy Graham. I believe God used him, making the best out of a situation that a human heart created. Leading some eventually to the Church. But the accuser used him as well leading many more to a false Jesus.

 

[glencor63]

Actually, I was just thinking he could have been a Eastern Rite Catholic, but the Eastern Orthodox would have been most accepting. I love the Catholic Church, but the longer I am in the Church the more I feel that many members of the clergy, especially in the upper levels covet earthly power and actually work against the Holy Spirit. I do not see what Jesus said about not making your power felt and not lording over the sheep. I’m still in the Church, but I seek some spiritual sustenance outside the Catholic Church. I have to leave. Good day.

 

[glencor63]

Mother Teresa had a very narrow and specific ministry to the poor of India, but Reverend Billy Graham evangelized for over 60+ years all over the world. Countless hundreds of millions of people heard the Gospel and accepted the free gift of eternal life and salvation from sin because of Billy Graham. He also wrote numerous books. His son continues his ministry.

 

[Fauken]

Actually, I was just thinking he could have been a Eastern Rite Catholic, but the Eastern Orthodox would have been most accepting. I love the Catholic Church, but the longer I am in the Church the more I feel that many members of the clergy, especially in the upper levels covet earthly power and actually work against the Holy Spirit.

Uh, the Eastern Orthodox have a hierarchy and are split on ethnic lines. Have you been seeing what’s been going on between the Russian and Ukrainian Orthodox churches lately? What makes the Orthodox more accepting than Eastern Catholics?

There are bad people in the Catholic Church. Some of them are bishops. There are power hungry people no matter the denomination. If the Catholic Church is true, however, then they don’t matter. Because ultimately Christ will triumph.

Psalm 63:

“63:1 Unto the end, a psalm for David.
63:2 Hear O God, my prayer, when I make supplication to thee: deliver my soul from the fear of the enemy.
63:3 Thou hast protected me from the assembly of the malignant; from the multitude of the workers of iniquity.
63:4 For they have whetted their tongues like a sword; they have bent their bow a bitter thing,
63:5 To shoot in secret the undefiled.
63:6 They will shoot at him on a sudden, and will not fear: they are resolute in wickedness. They have talked of hiding snares; they have said: Who shall see them?
63:7 They have searched after iniquities: they have failed in their search. Man shall come to a deep heart:
63:8 And God shall be exalted. The arrows of children are their wounds:
63:9 And their tongues against them are made weak. All that saw them were troubled;
63:10 And every man was afraid. And they declared the works of God, and understood his doings.
63:11 The just shall rejoice in the Lord, and shall hope in him: and all the upright in heart shall be praised.”

I do not see what Jesus said about not making your power felt and not lording over the sheep.

He didn’t call for the Apostles to abuse their power, but He did call all to be obedient. I can recognize that they are bad while also acknowledging their authority. St. Francis Assisi was once asked what he would do if he was to receive the Eucharist from a priest who was known to be corrupt. St. Francis said he would not only receive the Eucharist from him, but get on his knees and kiss the priest’s hands. Not because of who that priest was, but because of who Christ is.

Mother Teresa had a very narrow and specific ministry to the poor of India

She founded a religious Order whose members are all across the planet helping the poor. I’ve seen members of them in my state here in America. I’m told they run an extremely effective soup kitchen that would run great even without volunteers with them.

 

[glencor63]

The ministry of Mother Teresa’s order is wonderful! Serving the poor is a corporal work of mercy. Reverend Billy Graham’s ministry was worldwide evangelism. In that sense, his impact is more widespread. Beginning in 1947, he visited over 185 countries!

“Over 58 years, the Rev. Billy Graham preached at 417 crusades in 185 countries and territories worldwide, reaching 84 million people face to face and a total of 215 million by satellite feeds”.

 

[ReaderT]

Actually, I was just thinking [Billy Graham] could have been a Eastern Rite Catholic, but the Eastern Orthodox would have been most accepting

I don’t know about the “most accepting” part, but the Russian Orthodox Patriarch actually gave him a special blessing to preach in Russia, even though he wasn’t Orthodox

 

[Fauken]

The ministry of Mother Teresa’s order is wonderful! Serving the poor is a corporal work of mercy. Reverend Billy Graham’s ministry was worldwide evangelism. In that sense, his impact is more widespread. Beginning in 1947, he visited over 185 countries!

Mother Teresa wasn’t interested in just filling their bellies and providing them medical care, although that was their primary aim. How many have been converted by her care and love for the poor? Do you think she and the sisters didn’t tell the poor about Christ? Why would she do such a half measure?

 

[glencor63]

The East is very divided along cultural lines, which is why I am Roman Catholic, although I may investigate High Church Anglicanism.

 

[Fauken]

The East is very divided along cultural lines, which is why I am Roman Catholic, although I may investigate High Church Anglicanism.

Have you heard of the Anglican Ordinariate within the Catholic Church?

 

[glencor63]

They had two different ministries, but more people have a relationship with God because of Billy Graham’s crusades. He literally traveled the globe. Mother Teresa had a tremendous impact, but it’s not as widespread. That’s not to disparage her. St. Paul had a greater impact than St. James. He wrote more of the New Testament. Mother Angelica had a platform only dreamed of by Bishop Fulton Sheen. It’s not a competition!

 

[Fauken]

It’s not a competition!

Then why do you keep comparing the two? “Billy Graham was around the world!” “Mother Teresa has a religious Order that is also around the world.” “Billy Graham did evangelization!” “Mother Teresa did that as well though it wasn’t her primary focus.”

You’ve been saying that it’s not a competition but are also trying to make the case that Billy Graham could not have done what he did within the Catholic Church, when there are people within the last hundred years who had a world wide effect, some of which weren’t even ordained. You’re saying he did and could only do so out of the Church. I’d say you’ve indirectly made this a competition.

 

[Justin_Mary]

The ministry of Mother Teresa’s order is wonderful! Serving the poor is a corporal work of mercy. Reverend Billy Graham’s ministry was worldwide evangelism. In that sense, his impact is more widespread. Beginning in 1947, he visited over 185 countries!

No doubt there is a huge difference between Mother Teresa & Billy Graham. My conclusion is based on my belief that one was more aligned with Christ than the other. One I am sure is in heaven, the other not so much.

I also believe there is one Jesus. One who will say to Mother Teresa “take your inheritance for when I was hungry you gave me food.”

I don’t know what He will say to Billy Graham but it’s possible he will say, “I never knew you.” I know that’s not easy to accept. Billy Graham did preach for a long time.

But honestly I don’t know what Gospel he preached. There is a difference between the Jesus the Church teaches & the Jesus they (everyone other than the Church) preach.

Just like there was a Messiah taught by the prophets & a Messiah taught by the Pharisees. Many people are still waiting for the Messiah preached by the Pharisees.

 

[ReaderT]

The East is very divided along cultural lines

I respectfully disagree - we all have the exact same theology. We can commune in one another’s churches if properly disposed. There’s no difference, say, between a Romanian Orthodox and Japanese Orthodox, except for language.